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The Shichibukai were called to fight against Whitebeard + 14 dudes like Ace + 1582 NW fodder.
Discussion Shichibukai Vs Yonkou
- Thread starter vinsky
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DevilWarCry
初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
初心者/ Shoshinsha / BeginnerAll Shich were called to fight the whitebears pirates and their alliance. Not for one man!There is no one in One piece who is that overpowered. Its not freaking Bleach.
Anyway with the recent deveopments its clear that WB is the strongest man after all. Some ppl just should read the infoboxes which were so far right.
Anyway with the recent deveopments its clear that WB is the strongest man after all. Some ppl just should read the infoboxes which were so far right.
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The infobox presented a title, not a fact. It's also been stated, twice, in the manga that there's someone "stronger" than Whitebeard, Blackbeard.
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twice? Anyway did u already forget that Maggallan took out the entire crew in a single attack except Shiyru who was not present?!
BB is hinted to be the final boss. But that doesnt make him the strongest, especially since his crew isnt complete. I believe it is more likely that he is still growing in power like Luffy. Also it is said that you need time to master your fruite. BB got his fruit just for while now. He is dangerous since he seems to plan his moves. But I cant see him at the moment as the strongest especially since Impel down.
On the other hand WB is a oldtimer who was hyped since his introducdion and even now at the war he is living up to his fame. He is the current strongest until proven wrong; who will most likely fall.
About the title or fact thing, well lets just agree that we disagree. Since the infoboxes are for us readers and since they were all correct so far I beleive it is facts for us. Saying WB is the strongest is another way to hype him.
It is stated in the red book. I have the german release of that at home.
But imo it doesnt make sence since Shanks lost his former dominant arm. So I beleive he must have lost power but in the ten years he regained new strenght equal to his old or even stronger.
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imo its pretty obvious the yonkou would win.
ALL the shichibukai and the entire WG force had to be summoned to stand a chance against just 1 yonkou.
ALL the shichibukai and the entire WG force had to be summoned to stand a chance against just 1 yonkou.
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Yonkou operate without Marine/WG interference. Garp himself said that only Marine AND Shichibukai could be their equalizer. I think it mean basically Shichibukai need Marine to balance Yonkou power in general. No idea what will happened if a Yonkou is faced to a Shichibukai mano o mano.
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Plz read my old post regarding the meaning of and. U may get a different view on that.
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Well and the 43 additional Pirate ships. Even if each ship only had a 500 pirates, thats 23,082 NW-class Pirates +WB+ the Division Commanders...
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WB would also fall to Magellan if he had been careless with him as Shiryu was kind enough to point out to BB's crew. Also, BB's crew survived and BB gained a major asset.
BB wins in feats, powerscaling, and plot importance, yet you still insist that WB is "stronger"? It's true that BB's crew is growing in strength, but it doesn't mean that BB himself will grow in power. Shanks and BB himself have already stated that WB's era is coming to an end. Furthermore, the "Great Incident" still has yet to happen, and as the previous chapter was kind enough to point out, the current era, WB's era, will end regardless of this war's victor. What a total waste of hype only for Oda to do a 180 and show us that BB still has a way to go in terms of powerscaling.
WB is considered the strongest until proven wrong. I shouldn't need to point out that WB is going to die by this arc's conclusion thanks to BB screwing up the balance of power even more so as Kuma told us he would back in Thriller Bark.
The infobox presented a title, not a fact. Unfortunately, we'll have no conclusion to this debate until this arc's conclusion. Until then, we'll just agree to disagree.
Shanks would have trained his right arm to its utmost ability as compensation, but unless he did something such as eat a DF, his current self isn't as strong as his previous self. Perhaps the loss in power wasn't great; nevertheless, Shanks lost power.
Shanks' current crew is probably stronger than his crew a decade ago.
Stating MHQ=7BK=Yonkou is a vast oversimplification of the matter. Shichibukai exist because the WG needs them. MHQ is not strong enough on its own. Yonkou=7BK=MHQ is nonsense. Yonkou=7BK+MHQ is closer to the truth, but still wrong. You have to factor in the fact the Yonkou fight amongst each other. They can't be considered a unified World Power, even if the WG speaks of them as such. Therefore, we're forced to conclude that the balance of power follows as such: Yonkou + Crew vs Yonkou + Crew vs Yonkou + Crew vs Yonkou + Crew >= MHQ+7BK.
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Yeah, and what happened after that ? Luffy and his nakama kicked Oz's ass
Plus, this page gives a pretty clear idea for what happened to Moria in the New World, and against Kaidou http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/481/08/
The only one who is a match for a Yonkou is Hawkeye...
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I'm still sticking with my theory that "strongest swordsman" refers to skill with a sword. In a straight fencing match, Mihawk would beat Shanks. I think Shanks would win in a fight to the death, probably though haki, will, endurance, etc.
On Moria; we don't know how long ago Moria fought Kaidou. Kaidou may not have been considered a yonkou at the time. Don Krieg once fought equally against Luffy but wouldn't last 3 minutes now.
On Moria; we don't know how long ago Moria fought Kaidou. Kaidou may not have been considered a yonkou at the time. Don Krieg once fought equally against Luffy but wouldn't last 3 minutes now.
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No, 8-10 dudes like Ace + 1582 NW fodder were called to face 100.000 WG fodder + Vice Admirals + Shichibukai, while 4-6 dudes like Ace will face the Admirals.
this i agree with, although this just leads me to think that each Yonkou, by himself/herself, is even stronger than i thought he/she would be. If a Yonkou (aside from Whitbeard) is in Shichibukai level, why would, for example, one of the crews (let's say, 5 dudes like Ace) obey him? Sure, there's kindness and dreams and all those traits, but to follow someone just equal to you in overall power?
Hawkeye himself said he wanted to measure the difference between his strength and WB, one of Yonkou. The 3 Yonkou is unexplained, and Moria was speculating, "If i have this guy Oz here, even that bastard Kaidou himself wouldn't win, would he?"
I agree. Because i also think that Shanks, though is a swordsman, holds his ultimate power in something other than swordfighting skills.
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Being careless is yet another weakness of BB. He isnt even capable to read danger. While facing AoKiji and Kizaru, Luffy was capable to read the gap in strenght and acted accoring to it. BB cant do that cause he thinks to high of himself. Thats a weakness in which he can grow with Shiyru... for example.
On top of that Luffy send him flying bleeding. Even though he isnt in control of his haki. In return he hit Luffy bleeding. Luffy is growing so is BB. You have no proofs pointing that BB is at his prime.
About what feats and powerscaling are you talking about? Feats, we havent even seen WBs power. So dont go ahead putting BB above him. And If it is about powerscaling than WB has the most greatest, since he was hyped as the strongest since his introduction, which also indicates his fall. And again plot importance is not an argument. Like said Luffy has the most plot importance, does that mean he is the strongest? Certainly not, since he is growing like BB does.
I disagree about death but he will certainly fall. Anyway I was talking about a fair 1vs1 match between those two, where I think WB is at this moment stronger.
The reason WB was hyped as the strongest is probably indicating his fall. If a King falls another King will replace him. The current King is WB, he will be replaced by Luff not BB. Thats why Im putting WB above everyone. But not saying he can defeat everyone easily.
First off the power is messed up or better the explantion of Garp (Oda). As u said the Yonko are not united but the same applies for the Shichi. The only united organisation is the MHQ. So no matter how we try to explain the equilibrium it wont add up. The reason why I disagree with u: The Shich and the Marine are working for the WG. Mwk said himself that these two powers are equal and in conflict. Also Kuma was not working together with Kiz on SS while facing the Strawhats. My point is that these two powers are not working together and the one is not capable to order the other around. Not to mention that the Shichi cant be trusted.
Also another point imo the Yonko represents the bad and the MHQ represents the good. And the Shichi is the power which represents both: bad and good. Bad since they are pirates and good since they are working for the WG. So we have two powers facing each other (Yonko, MHQ) and one power (Shichi) balancing the other two, which would conclude the equilibrium like this: = = =
Anyway I know you disagree with me, just wanted to point out my reasoning. Lets just agree to disagee. I have had discussion about the equilibrium since years thus I know we wont agree, same with the WBvsBB matter.
I agree with the bolded part. But I dont understand why you are putting haki as a different class. Though not stated I believe it is more likely that both are capable of using haki, infact everyone has it. It is just a matter of controlling it. We also know haki can be imbued with weapons. So if both should fight a sword match than haki will be used too. Im basing this on BB comment about Luffys haki in Impel Down.
Those who are not always using there swords in a match cant be called a swordsman imo. Nightmare Luff was able to use a sword but that doesnt make him into a swordsman since his primary weapon is his bare hands.
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Stop stop here, even if WB is a Yonkou, he's still the strongest MAN in the world, even between the Yonkou, he's still an exception, it's not like Shanks who fought against Mihawk if you see what I want to say, let's just say that Hawkeye is the closest to the Yonkou in term of power...
About Moria, the guy fought against Kaidou 10 years ago or even more ( since it's said that Thriller Bark was in Florian Triangle since 10 years ), do you think that Kaidou didn't progress, or become more stronger ? Plus I don't believe Moria since he overestimate himself, the guy was defeated by the Strawhats... And let's suppose that Moria was right, that with Oz, he could defeat Kaidou... Then, do you think that Luffy and his nakama are at the level of Kaidou and his crew ? At the level of a Yonkou ? No way in hell !
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I didn't say Mihawk can't use haki, but I doubt he's as good at/strong at it as Shanks is and I think that is one factor that would tip a fight in Shanks' favor. By "fencing" I mean just a straight and gentlemanly swordfight, no tricks or DFs or haki or killing intent or anything else.
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I won't bother with the rest of your post. We'll just have to wait until this arc's conclusion to settle this matter once and for all. This part of your post, however, needs to be addressed.
First question you need to ask yourself is: Why does the WG want to keep this balance? The answer is, they don't. They want their side to tip over. There is a war going on against the pirates of the world, and they want to crush all pirates. They're not interested in keeping some sort of equilibrium in fighting strength against some pirates. They are especially not interested in keeping an equilibrium in fighting strength against 4 individual pirates, since wars are won with armies, not heroes. Would the full might of the MHQ have any problem with Whitebeard on his own? No, they could hunt him down and kill him easily. But Whitebeard and 16 persons as strong as Ace plus another 1600 men who all survived to the New World? That's another job altogether.
The second question you need to ask yourself is, why do the 7BK exist? The answer is that MHQ is not strong enough to defeat these pirates. They need extra help to be able to fight them. That alone rules out the equation MHQ=Yonkou in strength.
The resulting question from that is obviously, why aren't there more of the 7BK? Why aren't they they Shichijuubukai (70-bukai)? And the answer is that, they're pirates, they don't follow orders and they still pillage and plunder. They are keeping the 7BK at a lowest number possible. Having 7 extremely strong pirates do what they want is bad, having more of them is worse.
The third important question is, do you think the Yonkou see themselves as a "World Power"? Hell no. They all see themselves as the person who rules the world, the person who's going to become the Pirate King, the person who's going to crush all opposition. They're rivalling fleets, and as any good pirate would, they deal with their rivals by force. Sure, they might not fight all of the time, they even send the occasional message to each other, but they're definitely not on good terms. Shanks KOs a lot of WB's guys just because he's considered hostile there and he needs to be prepared. WB refused to hear Shanks' plea and even attacked the guy. And did you ever wonder why WB has spent 20 years being the "closest man to One Piece" and never actually took it? It's because if he tried to claim it, the 3 other fleets would gang up on him and kill him hard.
And now, when WB is coming to Ace's rescue, is the MHQ worried that any of the other Yonkou is going to help him? They haven't even brought the possibility up; Kaidou even attempted to attack WB, forcing Shanks to intervene. The Yonkou are not big on helping each other. They can't be considered a unified World Power, even if the WG speaks of them as such. However, since they're pirates, they're not against taking cheap shots and cashing in on opportunities. Even if the MHQ is able to defeat any single Yonkou fleets in combat, they cannot go out and challenge it. Why? The other Yonkou fleets would wreak havoc on the world.
So now you should be asking: Franckie, I don't understaaaand-tebayo, what the hell does all of this mean?
It means a number of things:
- Shichibukai exist because the WG needs them. MHQ is not strong enough on its own. Yonkou=7BK=MHQ is nonsense. Yonkou=7BK+MHQ is closer to the truth, but still wrong.
- MHQ is probably stronger than a single Yonkou fleet. But, they cannot take the time to kill it, because of what the other Yonkou fleets would do.
- Even now that WB is attacking the MHQ head on, they still bring in the 7BK. MHQ could win alone, but as above, there is the threat of what other Yonkou would do.
- Fighting off four different, warring fleets is easier to do than fighting off all four of them combined as one super fleet. If the WG side (MHQ+mandatory call for 7BK) had the power to fight all the Yonkou, they would do it. They aren't doing it, which means they aren't strong enough. Since they don't have the power to do that, they especially don't have the power to fight the four fleets combined as one.
- Final conclusion: Yonkou fleets combined > MHQ+7BK (but they don't like each other enough to gang up and take the WG down), MHQ+7BK > single Yonkou fleet (but they can't take the risk to take the fight), and most importantly, the "world balance" is only about not letting the Yonkou run amok on the world.
- Extra, free of charge, conclusion: strength relations between the Admirals, individual Yonkou and Shichibukai have absolutely nothing to do with it. They fight as armies.
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Since the strength of Yonkou is unexplained except for Garp's hype (The Yonkou, Four Strongest, WG and Shichi exists to counterbalance these four etc) and WB's broken Gura Gura Fruit, i don't know what to say except the repetition of my previous post (somewhere in OP thread): If WB is significantly stronger than the other Yonkou (for example, WB and Ace. Defeating Ace more or less 100 times in sleep is prove that WB is significantly stronger for them to be put in the same class), what's preventing him from claiming the other Yonkou's power, army and territory as his own, through a war between Yonkou? The crew? Surely each Yonkou has crews in almost equal amount of strength and power, though WB is the almost hyped so far.
But if the leader is significantly weaker, WB won't be so difficult from taking the crews and authority and power from another Yonkou as his own in order to overthrow the WG and start a total pirate era without WG's interference. Or something.
But about Mihawk, well it's still been said that he was Shanks' equal, but i don't know. From the past, Mihawk always wanted to chase Shanks and settle the rivalry while Shanks seemed to be his "target" (before Shanks lost his arm). That led me to think that individually, but maybe not in pure swordfighting, Shanks was stronger. And now? I don't know.
my own post:
My post said that Moria was speculating. It means i disagree, or at least question, that Moria said was the truth or even close. Heck, Moria's words were uncertain, he could even mean, "If i have these thousands of zombie army and this big fella Oz here, even that bastard Kaidou, by himself, without his crews, wouldn't have defeated me, right?" We don't even know that far. I mean each Yonkou, even individually without the crew, could really possibly be a monster at WB's level.
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Now rethinking I have to change my opinion to = + and not = =. Ur post gave me points to rethink, though with some I dont agree.
The Yonko is not a united organisation, yet you are considering them as one:
The MHQ could have crushed the Yonko one by one, if it wasnt the great age of piracy. The MHQ has to face every pirate (SN etc) and other outlaws. (Also it was said that the MHQ is the WGs greatest force so they might even have to fight Dragons organisation; but well lets put them aside. Since it should be the work of each countries royal force)
The reason whe they need the Shichi: The current age is the great pirate age since Roger. The pirates are dominating the world. The MHQ isnt capable on managing the pirates on their own. Thats why they need the Shichi, not only because of the Yonko. The Yonko are only representing the pinnacle of the pirate age in the new world. (Also the reason why Garp put them together in one basket) But the MHQ has to spread their forces overall in the world, hence they are overburdened.
The Sichi are not only there to fight the Yonko, but also to oppress other pirates. Or why else should the WG let their Shichbukai reside in the first half of the grand line?! They dont need the Shichi to fight the Yonko but they need them to fight the great age of pirates. Remember CPs goal was the ancient weapon. With that they wanted to fight the pirate age.
Yonko = Shichi + MHQ
The Yonko are representing the pirates. Thats probably why they are put in one basket even though they are not united. It is the great age of piracy, so they are the dominating power in the world.
The MHQ as the second powerfullest force is overburdend. The Sichi as the weakest are there to outbalance the other two. Since they are there to outbalance and since Mwk said they are equal to the marine I put them earlier ==.
Just recently we were told by Sengoku WBs intention. We dont know anything abouit Raftet and why Roger was so far the only man on that island. Nor dont we know anything about the goals of the other three Yonko..
WB was Rogers equal and rival; why would he want to step into his footsteps as the next PK? Though not called PK, he is allready the King of seas, according to Garp. I dont get how u came up with the gang up thing.
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So far only Jozu and Marco can be considered on Aces level. The other were not even given proper introdctuion by Oda so most likely they are not that strong. Also it is not only 1600 but alliance fleets as well as Garp already said (or hinted).
The MHQ should have enough power to fight the Yonko, but it is the great age of piracy. I will explain later.
The Yonko is not a united organisation, yet you are considering them as one:
Why would they fight all four fleets as one? Its not like all Yonko are residing on the same island. The MHQ could move their forces silently (without any anouncement like with Aces execution on newspaper) to crush the Yonko one by one. They didnt do that cause they have to face other outlws as well, not only the Yonko.
The MHQ could have crushed the Yonko one by one, if it wasnt the great age of piracy. The MHQ has to face every pirate (SN etc) and other outlaws. (Also it was said that the MHQ is the WGs greatest force so they might even have to fight Dragons organisation; but well lets put them aside. Since it should be the work of each countries royal force)
The reason whe they need the Shichi: The current age is the great pirate age since Roger. The pirates are dominating the world. The MHQ isnt capable on managing the pirates on their own. Thats why they need the Shichi, not only because of the Yonko. The Yonko are only representing the pinnacle of the pirate age in the new world. (Also the reason why Garp put them together in one basket) But the MHQ has to spread their forces overall in the world, hence they are overburdened.
The Sichi are not only there to fight the Yonko, but also to oppress other pirates. Or why else should the WG let their Shichbukai reside in the first half of the grand line?! They dont need the Shichi to fight the Yonko but they need them to fight the great age of pirates. Remember CPs goal was the ancient weapon. With that they wanted to fight the pirate age.
Yonko = Shichi + MHQ
The Yonko are representing the pirates. Thats probably why they are put in one basket even though they are not united. It is the great age of piracy, so they are the dominating power in the world.
The MHQ as the second powerfullest force is overburdend. The Sichi as the weakest are there to outbalance the other two. Since they are there to outbalance and since Mwk said they are equal to the marine I put them earlier ==.
Well thats crap and u know that urself.
Just recently we were told by Sengoku WBs intention. We dont know anything abouit Raftet and why Roger was so far the only man on that island. Nor dont we know anything about the goals of the other three Yonko..
WB was Rogers equal and rival; why would he want to step into his footsteps as the next PK? Though not called PK, he is allready the King of seas, according to Garp. I dont get how u came up with the gang up thing.
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So you are looking down on me?
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There's no reason to believe that the other Captains aren't on par with Ace. Oda had no reason to introduce all the other Captains at the same time, especially considering WB controlling a vast amount of territory in the New World. It's probably very rare to see all the Captains conglomerate with each other.
One of the key reasons it's called the "Great Age of Piracy" is because you have WB, the "Ruler of the Seas", and 3 more people like him.
I am not considering the Yonkou as a united organization. I am considering what they would be like though if they were one. As I've repeatedly stated, the only reason MHQ + 7BK can counteract the Yonkous' influence is because the Yonkou fight amongst each other.
I also explained why MHQ + 7BK don't go knocking on the doors of each Yonkou individually:
This is especially evident when Momonga stated, "What an unstable ocean this is!" when he heard Shanks and Kaidou began fighting with each other.me said:
Besides the fact that the vast majority of pirates are insignificant, MHQ is forced to overlook the lesser threats because MHQ has its hands tied up dealing with the Yonkou. Garp, for example, points out MHQ needs the assistance of the 7BK to ensure the Yonkou don't do things such as take over the world. This is the entire point behind the "World Balance".
About twenty years passed before WB met Ace. What do you think WB was doing during that time? What do you think kept WB from acquiring One Piece for himself, or for Ace as Sengoku believes? Answer is, obviously something is hampering WB's progress. WB has been in a deadlock for quite a while now thanks to the other Yonkous' influence. This is why the current arc is so important.
WB is going to get soundly defeated. MHQ would not provoke a war they didn't know they could win. With WB's death, the other three Yonkou are going to be able to start moving. MHQ will be weakened but they will be more free to start getting involved in New World business.
This is completely different from how it was before. The four Yonkou controlled different parts of the NW, and the marines did their best to make sure it didn't get worse than that. This was called the "World Balance". That balance is going to get crushed. Everything in the whole One Piece world is going to be different from before. All hell is about to break loose in the New World.
Also, Blackbeard is putting his plan into motion. This is all his doing. Dragon is putting his plan in motion too, by the looks of the first page stories.
No.
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I dont know if we can consider for sure that what division you command determines your actual fighting strength in WB's organization. When they said they agreed to make Ace the 2nd division commander they said it was a position that had been vacated for awhile. As far Yonkou = or not equaling the MHQ and the Shichi, Sengoku has said so himself that they can't overcome WB with sheer military force and that they may actually meet their end in this battle. When word reached HQ that Shanks and WB were going to meet each other, MHQ almost crapped themselves. After seeing WB's allied crews it is almost safe to assume that all Yonkou have other crews under them. A potential alliance between the two would almost certainly overwhelm the WG forces. Does anyone think that the Shichi would actually answer a call to fight 2 Yonkous and their crews let alone all 4?