Discussion Shichibukai Vs Yonkou

[braindamage351]

The Whitebeard pirates are stronger than everyone in Marine HQ combined. Isn't it obvious why they need the shichibukai? With their help they can stop any single yonkou crew (it's still a close match with Whitebeard, but his crew is almost certainly the strongest of the 4). The guaranteed threat of destruction for whichever crew attacks them, combined with the inability of the yonkou to work together, creates the "balance" Garp talked about.

As for Shanks and Mihawk. Really, none of this shit makes sense. We know that Shanks and Mihawk were equals, we know that Shanks is as good now as he ever was (stated by Oda), and we know that he doesn't have a devil fruit. He only has one hand and it's holding a sword, what the hell else can he do that would make him stronger than Mihawk?

He can't be equal to Whitebeard. And his crew can't possibly be even close to the level of Whitebeard's. He's got like 4 crewmembers with faces, and they don't have devil fruits (because he requires crewmembers to swim). It makes no sense. I mean, either the equality thing is BS, or Lucky Roux can punch an island in half, Ben Beckman can backhand Laboon into the sky, and Shanks can karate kick the red line to dust while simultaneously being Mihawk's equal with a sword.

 

[kkck]

He can't be equal to Whitebeard. And his crew can't possibly be even close to the level of Whitebeard's. He's got like 4 crewmembers with faces, and they don't have devil fruits (because he requires crewmembers to swim). It makes no sense. I mean, either the equality thing is BS, or Lucky Roux can punch an island in half, Ben Beckman can backhand Laboon into the sky, and Shanks can karate kick the red line to dust while simultaneously being Mihawk's equal with a sword.

This is a crew with a relatively small amount of members. In a way it is similar to luffy's except this one has fully developed and achieved monumental amounts of power. I would think all of the members with faces we have seen(except rockstar) are capable of fighting on par with people as shichibukai, vice admirals, or admirals which would justify shanks position in the world.

 

[Finale]

When Shanks met with WB and his crew was wondering if it was war, they didn't seem overly concerned. Shanks commands enough respect that WB agreed to meet with him albeit briefly. The simple fact that Shnaks' crew is small and he is still a Yonkou is a testament to his crew's strength. If they weren't extremely powerful, MHQ would have went ahead and eliminated them. Keep in mind they were chilling in East Blue for who knows how long. I'm sure some marine ships spotted them and reported back to HQ. They could've waited for his return to the Redline to attack him.

 

[Franckie]

This is a crew with a relatively small amount of members. In a way it is similar to luffy's except this one has fully developed and achieved monumental amounts of power. I would think all of the members with faces we have seen(except rockstar) are capable of fighting on par with people as shichibukai, vice admirals, or admirals which would justify shanks position in the world.

I doubt Shanks has a small crew. I do recall a statement in one of Shanks' DB profile that states his organization continues to grow in size & influence. Also, Shanks wouldn't be able to fend off any of the other Yonkou and boast an enormous influence in the New World if he had a small crew, especially considering how strength relations Shanks & crew have between the Admirals, individual Yonkou, and Shichibukai have absolutely nothing to do with the balance of power; these various "great powers" (MHQ, 7BK, Yonkou) fight as armies.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

About Moria, the guy fought against Kaidou 10 years ago or even more ( since it's said that Thriller Bark was in Florian Triangle since 10 years ), do you think that Kaidou didn't progress, or become more stronger ? Plus I don't believe Moria since he overestimate himself, the guy was defeated by the Strawhats... And let's suppose that Moria was right, that with Oz, he could defeat Kaidou... Then, do you think that Luffy and his nakama are at the level of Kaidou and his crew ? At the level of a Yonkou ? No way in hell !

Moria said that with Oz, he could have defeated Kaidou when their crew both fought to death : he did not say he could defeat the actual Yonkou Kaidou with Oz.

First question you need to ask yourself is: Why does the WG want to keep this balance? The answer is, they don't. They want their side to tip over. There is a war going on against the pirates of the world, and they want to crush all pirates. They're not interested in keeping some sort of equilibrium in fighting strength against some pirates.

About that, please read an old post of mine.

---

And Shanks has not a small crew : it seems he has a big one on a single ship. He was not said to have a fleet like WB whose case is an exception.
For the moment only Kid, Law and Luffy were seen with a few crew members. But we do not really know about Kid's and Law's.

 

[Franckie]

About that, please read an old post of mine.

I read your post and it ignores the fact that the WG wants to put an end to the "Great Age of Piracy". They're not interested in maintaining an equilibrium where they're at the losing edge. Also, as Jinbei pointed out, MHQ knows full-well what will happen if WB dies. All hell will break loose in the New World following that man's death, yet they're still willing to provoke a war with WB and take a hefty blow in exchange for defeating him.

And Shanks has not a small crew : it seems he has a big one on a single ship. He was not said to have a fleet like WB whose case is an exception.
For the moment only Kid, Law and Luffy were seen with a few crew members. But we do not really know about Kid's and Law's.

Quality is important, but a small elite crew cannot compare to actual fighting numbers. For example, Luffy's crew has been overwhelmed with fodder at Enies Lobby, Shabondy Archipelago, and Thriller Bark. They're especially dangerous when a powerful fighter is present.

Like the other Yonkou, Shanks controls a vast amount of territory in the New World. It wouldn't be possible for him to compete with other pirates such as WB who has 1600 subordinates if he had a crew comparable to Luffy's.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

I read your post and it ignores the fact that the WG wants to put an end to the "Great Age of Piracy". They're not interested in maintaining an equilibrium where they're at the losing edge. Also, as Jinbei pointed out, MHQ knows full-well what will happen if WB dies. All hell will break loose in the New World following that man's death, yet they're still willing to provoke a war with WB and take a hefty blow in exchange for defeating him.

Actually, the fact that the WG wants to be the unique system in the whole world means implicitly that the WG must put an end to the " Great Age of Piracy ". This must be the " Great Age if the World Gvt ". But in my post, I say why they want to change the current situation, not that they want to change the situation.

Quality is important, but a small elite crew cannot compare to actual fighting numbers. For example, Luffy's crew has been overwhelmed with fodder at Enies Lobby, Shabondy Archipelago, and Thriller Bark. They're especially dangerous when a powerful fighter is present.

Like the other Yonkou, Shanks controls a vast amount of territory in the New World. It wouldn't be possible for him to compete with other pirates such as WB who has 1600 subordinates if he had a crew comparable to Luffy's.

Having a small elite crew is best because it prevents the crew from loosing crew members. A large crew of various pirates always means that some of them will die during the journey.
Shanks has a big crew but not as large as WB's. In fact, we cannot know what would have happened if Shanks had a crew like Luffy's.
Anyway, Luffy is supposed to become the Pirate King with a small elite crew, you know.

 

[Franckie]

Actually, the fact that the WG wants to be the unique system in the whole world means implicitly that the WG must put an end to the " Great Age of Piracy ". This must be the " Great Age if the World Gvt ". But in my post, I say why they want to change the current situation, not that they want to change the situation.

The current situation is unacceptable to the WG. They're forced to maintain an unfavorable equilibrium in order to keep the 4 Yonkou in check because MHQ doesn't have the power to deal with the pirate threat on their own. That's why the WG was forced to assemble the 7BK.

Having a small elite crew is best because it prevents the crew from loosing crew members. A large crew of various pirates always means that some of them will die during the journey.

Having a small elite crew is not a good idea because you can lose crewmates at any given time and it takes time for people to effectively develop their specialties. Also, a large crew lessens the chance of being wiped out and/or forced to integrate into a stronger fleet.

Shanks has a big crew but not as large as WB's. In fact, we cannot know what would have happened if Shanks had a crew like Luffy's.

Shanks wouldn't have become a Yonkou if he had a crew like Luffy's.

Anyway, Luffy is supposed to become the Pirate King with a small elite crew, you know.

You're ignoring the fact that Luffy normally receives help when dealing with larger threats. Water 7 backed Luffy up at Enies Lobby, that association composed of Moria's additional victims backed Luffy up at Thriller Bark, Supernovas + Duval's gang + Hachi backed Luffy up at Shabondy Archipelago, and Luffy is currently backed up by 241 prisoners who all escaped from Impel Down, and that's not factoring in the additional aid Luffy will receive when he eventually arrives at Marineford.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

The current situation is unacceptable to the WG. They're forced to maintain an unfavorable equilibrium in order to keep the 4 Yonkou in check because MHQ doesn't have the power to deal with the pirate threat on their own. That's why the WG was forced to assemble the 7BK.

I have never said the opposite, we all know that.

Having a small elite crew is not a good idea because you can lose crewmates at any given time and it takes time for people to effectively develop their specialties. Also, a large crew lessens the chance of being wiped out and/or forced to integrate into a stronger fleet.

The difference is that with a various and large crew, it is sure that you will loose (" weak ") nakamas if you met a dangerous ennemy. With an elite small crew, the probability that your nakama lost the fight is less important than with a weak crewmate.

Shanks wouldn't have become a Yonkou if he had a crew like Luffy's.

We do not know. That is the elite nakamas that makes the crew. The rest is " labor force " that can be beaten easily. That's the fear of fighting the Yonkou and his elite nakamas that makes you forget the idea to attack his territory, that is not his weak friends/nakamas on his islands.

You're ignoring the fact that Luffy normally receives help when dealing with larger threats. Water 7 backed Luffy up at Enies Lobby, that association composed of Moria's additional victims backed Luffy up at Thriller Bark, Supernovas + Duval's gang + Hachi backed Luffy up at Shabondy Archipelago, and Luffy is currently backed up by 241 prisoners who all escaped from Impel Down, and that's not factoring in the additional aid Luffy will receive when he eventually arrives at Marineford.

It just shows that with a small elite crew, you can do it in the Grand Line. It is just a matter of fate and will.

 

[BlackHair]

@Franckie U should read ur own post. U r making sth out of ur mind and stating it as fact. At this point it is just a assumption or at most a prediction, nothing more.

As I said before no matter how u try to explain the balance, it doesnt add up in some parts. So imo even ur theory has some weak points.

About twenty years passed before WB met Ace. What do you think WB was doing during that time? What do you think kept WB from acquiring One Piece for himself, or for Ace as Sengoku believes? Answer is, obviously something is hampering WB's progress. WB has been in a deadlock for quite a while now thanks to the other Yonkous' influence. This is why the current arc is so important.

WB is going to get soundly defeated. MHQ would not provoke a war they didn't know they could win. With WB's death, the other three Yonkou are going to be able to start moving. MHQ will be weakened but they will be more free to start getting involved in New World business.

This is completely different from how it was before. The four Yonkou controlled different parts of the NW, and the marines did their best to make sure it didn't get worse than that. This was called the "World Balance". That balance is going to get crushed. Everything in the whole One Piece world is going to be different from before. All hell is about to break loose in the New World.

Why do u think WB is after OP? WB is a pirate from Rogers time. He is not one of those (Luffy) who run searching after Roger death for the OP.

Also u need think why so far Roger was the only man on Raftet. Maybe the last island is protected by some sort of natural phenomen or sth. As to WBs fall and the whole era change which is hinted for quite a long time now, we both agree on that.

However, since they're pirates, they're not against taking cheap shots and cashing in on opportunities. Even if the MHQ is able to defeat any single Yonkou fleets in combat, they cannot go out and challenge it. Why? The other Yonkou fleets would wreak havoc on the world..

I have to disargee on that. The WG wants no matter what the supreme control of the world. Which they lost since Roger.

We know how rutheless the WG can be if they want to archive their goal (Ohara Robin). So with that in mind Im not really satisfied with ur idea. The WG could have crushed the Yonko one by one. Even if the other Yonko would have gone amok on the world. I mean damages done by the them can be repaired/rebuild, so why would WG fear that the Yonko going havoc while facing them? (lets leave political reasons aside) The Yonko are the pinnacle of the pirate age. Taking them out should have a great impact on other pirates too. Especially if u take out WB, who is the defintion of the current age.

On the other hand why didnt the Yonko (not together) attacked the WG before? Reading the current events we know how powerful they are. Also the MHQ is a declared enemy of the pirates. They had no reason to let the marines in peace.

Considering this I believe each side feared losses in their army, thats why they havent acted so far in all these years. The reason why now the balance is falling apart is because the WG has Rogers son. Its not like they have some new gained weapon withwhat they have confidence in their victory. The era is shifting cause of Ace and BB. If in case BB would have captured some other mighty pirate, things wouldnt have developed like this.

All in all Im just saying each side must have hesitated to move. So after some tiime the balance was created. Just as u said no one has interest in that balance, except maybe the Shichi.

 

[LordZet]

or because WB doesn't want to go to war with the marines over nothing. it would be pointless. Shanks didn't care the marines wouldn't let shanks meet WB he claimed if they get in the way he'll destroy them if he has too.

WB now has a good reason to go to war with the WG, because of Ace.

 

[Black Lagoon]

The shichibukais are very strong pirates/silver medallists who aren't yonkou level.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

The shichibukais are very strong pirates/silver medallists who aren't yonkou level.

i doubt mihawk is silver medalist when hes clearly strongest swordsman
since hes stronger then shanks in 1:1 i would say hes gold, shanks silver

 

[Oni Giri]

since hes stronger then shanks in 1:1

we don't know that

 

[BlackHair]

Shanks is a swordsman but Mihawk is the strongest swordsman! Guess who is superior.

We had these discussion many times already, I don't want to repeat them. But Mwk is clearly hight tier. So is Shanks and WB. The Shichi varies in battle power from each. While there are high tier level there are also weaker ones, like Moria.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

i see moria as one of the strongones but this is offtopic

after the lastest chapters it should be clear how much the difference is between shichibukai and yonkous whitebeard could take out at least 4 without any help

 

[BlackHair]

Whitebeard himself is a special case. That guy is the strongest.

Shanks is most likely weaker than Mwk. And Mwk is most likely stronger than Moria, seriously that guy is worth nothing imo.

Anyway I was only arguing about placing the Shichi below the Yonko. Which is absurd. The Shich can't be put together in one basket.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Whitebeard himself is a special case. That guy is the strongest.

That maybe, but the other Yonkous dont have that name only for show, Whitebeard accepted Shanks as one of his level. I dont expect them to be so far away from whitebeard like the shichis.

 

[Antares]

Shanks is a swordsman but Mihawk is the strongest swordsman! Guess who is superior.

Shanks. His true power is yet to be known. Mihawk is stronger than Shanks in swordsmanship only.
Mihawk, as far as we know, is pretty much equal to Jozu. But Shanks is equal to Whitebeard. If we wanna talk about crews, WB has more crew, but still didn't dominate ANY of the other Yonkou. Even if he's the strongest, he still hasn't dominate Shanks as he did Ace 100x in his sleep. So the special case is not the case. Shanks is stronger than Mihawk.

 

[BlackHair]

Shanks. His true power is yet to be known. Mihawk is stronger than Shanks in swordsmanship only.
Mihawk, as far as we know, is pretty much equal to Jozu. But Shanks is equal to Whitebeard. If we wanna talk about crews, WB has more crew, but still didn't dominate ANY of the other Yonkou. Even if he's the strongest, he still hasn't dominate Shanks as he did Ace 100x in his sleep. So the special case is not the case. Shanks is stronger than Mihawk.

WB is the strongest man as well as the most powerfullest pirate. Powerful means crew (+alliance) power. His union (crew+alliance) is the strongest. Their is nothing to debate about that.

There have been several hints in the mange, which lets me conclude that Shanks is a swordsman. And ur comparison with Jozu/Mwk and WB/Shanks, doesn't put Shanks above Mwk for every logical reason.