Chapter Shingeki no Kyojin Chapter 111 Discussion / 112 Predictions

Discussion in 'Shingeki no Kyojin' started by Farfalla, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Jedidiyah

    Jedidiyah Registered User

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    That won't work. Isayama made a point of Armin "noticing" how when Eren touched Dina it was Eren's will, not Dina's, that the titans obeyed. So Zeke can not do more than what he did in Shiganshina with his yelling, and Eren can easily undercut him by using Historia, for example. In short, the rumbling ain't happening unless Eren wants it. As for the Eldian military, especially the top echelon and Zackley specifically, they are not a particularly valuable bunch. Zeke probably wants Eren to do in Paradis what Willy had him do in Marley, clean up the house, and it makes much more sense for Eren to want the same this time. I am still at a loss how they plan to transfer titans from Paradis to wherever they are supposed to serve as a deterrent against others, but it was made clear several times that it is somehow doable. Perhaps ravaging the coming Marley invasion will be enough to send the message. I wonder if this is something like emperor Lelouch play for Eren, he absorbs everything that everybody hates Eldians for, and then lets himself be destroyed so they can live.

    On a second thought I agree, Falco might be done for. He was kind of prepped to be the red shirt that finally helps Gabi see the light and have an epiphany. First used by Eren and now by her. Fitting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  2. AriesNoShion

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    Two things bother me here: 1) Eren obviously did not need any help to escape, with 3 Titans power, he was fine no matter what the military could have done. 2) If his goal is really to save Eldia with the rumbling, it's prettey risky imo to let the Eldians without milutary learders when they know Marley may attack at any moment. Military peoplewere carefull about the rumbling that's right but this is more because they don't trust the Jaegers. Why does Zeke want to be the one using rumbling and not Historia? Eren and Historia could use it without him.

    Yes, as far as we know. Nicholo is not the only volunteer owning a restaurant apparently. Maybe they gave Zeke's spinal fluid to each Eldians, who knows? If they can mix it with wine, they can mix it with anything.
    The final goal for Marley is not only to have Eren's powers but to anihilate Paradise Island. First, if he would have tried to double-cross them in Liberio, with Mikasa + Eren + Levi + Armin they would have failed anyway. And the casualties would have been way worse for Marley as they were. Playing along this plan, he and the voluteers won their trust. At least enough to be kept alive and as mediator. He moved the war from Marley to Paradise Island.
    Zeke still being loyal to marley is the same thing as Gabi still being loyal to Marley: brainwashing, the guy sold his parents and I don't buy his story at all. He hates his dad, he displayed it many times (after destroying the survey corps for exemple, and he was alone, so why would he lie to himself?)

    I think Zeke after all these unsuccessful years trying to get Eren realise that he had to do the same thing as Eldians, make sacrifice. But eh, that's just my opinion ^^ We'll see.

    True but Dina was a mindless Titan. Zeke is a shifter with the Beast Titan, we don't know if this will have the same result at all. If Eren takes the risk to use the rumbling with Zeke instead of Historia, I m sorry but this is dumb. The risk is too high, even he can't take this kind of risk.
    I don't like the military guys, Rogue especially, but all he sai until know made plenty of sense. Nothing for now can prove his suspicions about Zeke or even Eren are false.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  3. Sapewloth

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    Eren and Historia cannot use the rumbling without Historia being turned into a titan first. The whole point of Zeke's plan presented by Kiyomi in chapter 107 was to have Historia become a shifter at the end of Zeke's term and breed to ensure the safety of the royal bloodline until the end of her thirteen years of life. And we know from that chapter that Eren was completely opposed to that, as it meant sacrificing one of his closest friends.
     
  4. Eigengrau

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    Not from what we've seen; Eldians on Paradise are currently losing hope/turning on the military after they imprisoned Eren, their "hero", and they're also becoming more and more infatuated with the idea of becoming part of the "great Eldian empire" once again and rule the world, which is a relatively normal reaction one would have considering the circumstances.

    Just look how that mob of people reacted upon seeing Zackley being blown to death... they were happy, because he was standing in Eren's way.

    Granted, the Eldians don't know about Zeke/the Beast Titan, but for now everyone will do and follow as Eren says, because in their eyes he's their savior.


    But like I said, this doesn't really make any sense. If this was all a plan,
    - why not say anything to the other warriors, or even Magath?
    - why imprison them and throw Galliard and Pieck into a hole, hoping they don't take a part in the conflict?
    - why go out of their way to have all the Marleyan military killed? What purpose does that serve? That only hurts the "great country of Marley"...
    - what was stopping Zeke from throwing some mere rocks and blowing the blimp, which would effectively doom everyone since they would have no means of returning home? Why not just do that, since there were only a few dozen soldiers + Eren/Armin as shifters? Without a means to return home, they would all eventually be captured/killed on Marleyan soil, 100% guaranteed since the enemy had way more soldiers, firepower and shifters, and nowhere for the good guys to run.

    Doing all of this just to end with a "lul fooled you, I'm doing all of this for Marley still" doesn't make sense to me.

    While there are shenanigans abound for sure, I'm certain there's more to Zeke than that.

    Maybe he wants to eat all the shifters, maybe he wants to become the next Ymir, or something like that, but him still working for Marley doesn't make sense because as I said there were much better opportunities to acquire the Founding Titan by now and they didn't do it.

    Earning their trust without even knowing if he'd be kept alive would just be unnecessary and risky for no reason at all.
     
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  5. AriesNoShion

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    Really? Are we sure of that? Have they tried or did I miss something? Yes Dina Fritz was a mindless Titan and yes Zeke is a shifter but are we sure that the persone with royal blood has to be a Titan? I can't remember anything like that.

    Yeah but these people are morrons, sorry but they don't know half of the things that happened. I don't imply that Eren was wrond to do what he does but these people worship him a little too much. Thinking Eldians are good guys no matter what....meh. If someone of your country decided alone to kill thousands of people from all the other countries of the world in my name, I would have issues with that I think.
    The people may have lost faith in the military but they still are people who could have protected them when Marley will rise. Killing them was stupid, and people being happy about him only shows how unaware of the danger they are.[/QUOTE]

    -this first point is my first concern: why Zeke would have done all of this without telling Marley / Pieck about his plan. Many possibilities: he feared an extra spy from Eldia (like the Owl before this), or maybe he thought Marley would not allow to take the risk to lose another shifter again. I don't have The answer, but I just say there are many plausible grounds.

    -same thing for the other shifters and Magath.

    -Zeke knows his comrades better than anyone. He knows how smart Pieck is and I think he is smart enough to predict their next move. Zeke and Eren act exactly the same way with their allies: they don't have to tell them what to do: they make them do what they want. Eren didn't ask Mikasa & Co to come to rescue him, he knew that they knew they didn't have a choice.
    If Zeke still wants Marley's victory without being discovered by Eldians, he had to act as they decides. Plus, keeping Pieck and Galliard out of the way would have been a good way to protect them. Galliard almost got eaten because they find a way to get out.

    - letting Eren kill all these people (and not 100% of the Marley forces at all as we saw) had 2 effects: first, Eldia has mde himself an ennemy of the entire world, in a moment when Marley was hated by everyone and secondly, he allows Zeke to be closest than ever of Eren and the rumbling. If he has any mean to take control, Marley wins. That's their purpose from the begining. And now, Eren seems (I don't think he is at 100%) to trust Zeke.
    Yes Zeke has killed many people. Like the Owl killed a lot of Eldians.

    -Again I think even running ahead of Eren's attack, they were not guarateed to win. Armin has the colossal Titan who destroyed their entire marine forces, they have Eren, with 2 shifters power, and an army specialized against Titan, their main weapon. Plus Levi was obviously ready to jump in if Zeke would have betrayed them at this moment.


    It's not just to say "hey I fooled you", it's in order to be at the perfect spot with the perfect tools at the perfect timing. Look what tje Owl and their dad did only to save a little hope to change things. That's a recurrent theme since the begining.

    Zeke spend all the time he had, his all life trying to infiltrate Paradise Island and capture the Coordiante, they were never successful. Even when he tried himself. If Marley had so many opportunities they would have already won.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  6. deyna

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    zackley had the final say in all of the military's decisions. he's the head of 3 divisions: survey corps, garrison, military police. he could just instruct anyone or everyone in the military to kill eren if he wanted to. or prepare someone he could easily control to take eren's titan powers since they have the titan formula now and tell his underlings to catch eren.
     
  7. shipleyy

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    Enjoyed the chapter. I always thought there was something with that wine. Now that it’s been confirmed, I just wonder how many will be turned. Small amount will be of those most important and if they do it in a mass amount, Eldia is basically done. Still ever curious about the rumbling. Gabi needs to go.
     
  8. Sapewloth

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    Eren came to the conclusion that he needed to touch a titan of royal blood to be able to use the Coordinate in chapter 89, and decided to keep that information to himself as it might have put Historia in danger.
    In the magazine version of the chapter there's an error reported by Isayama on his blog where Eren says "consume" instead of "touch", but it has been fixed for the volume release normally.
    We can assume that no experimentation with Historia happened beyond them holding hands and trying to trigger memories (something pointed out by Jean in chapter 70 that most likely happened off screen) since Eren had decided to hide what he knew.
    The theory is also basically confirmed by Zeke's plan two years later which consists in making Historia eat Zeke at the end of his term so that Paradis can maintain access to the rumbling, as a "titan with royal blood" is needed along with someone holding the Coordinate for the rumbling to work in the first place.
     
  9. AriesNoShion

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    Okay I definitely missed something here, thanks. I always wondered why it was so important (Christa becoming a Titan). I hope they tried before at least, but if Eren kept this for himself I doubt it. So even if they d lose Zeke, there is always the possibility to turn Historia into a mindless Titan and they should be able to activate the rumbling anyway. But I guess Eren doesn't want that. She could eat Armin too ^^. But Iget why Eren want to meet Zeke now, if he is still a "good" guy.
     
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  10. Hollywood 360

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    Now I'm worried about Hange and Pixie, they might of drink the wine. With Marley on the island and spying on them, the worst has yet to come.
     
  11. Eigengrau

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    Put yourself in their shoes... for 100+ years, these people have lived inside the Walls without really knowing why, thinking the whole world outside was extinct besides them.

    And then they find out that they're pretty much the "butt of the joke" of the entire world, that they're not only hundreds of years behind in technology, someone has also been turning their race into Titans and dropping them on their island just because they can.

    Not only that, but they also discover that the "truth" is that many ages ago, their race used to rule the world.

    Is it so strange that after finding this out, most of them are going all "nazi" again, and wanting to reclaim their former glory? Whether it's right or not remains to be seen, but it's extremely understandable and justifiable.

    The people have no reason NOT to worship him, considering what he did and what he achieved... he stood up for everyone inside the Walls when the military wasn't taking any action.

    How, and when? They were sitting on their asses and not taking any action.

    Eren is the one who took action and the military had to follow through.

    And after that? They throw their only "hero" in jail... the only person that can make things work, without whom everything falls appart and they're just as good as dead.

    If there was 1 person in my whole country who had the power to save my whole race/country, and someone threw them in jail where they can't possibly be of any help - and after sending a loud message to the world - yeah, I'd be pretty mad too and would lose any and all hope in my government/armed forces.


    All of that doesn't explain, if true, why Zeke didn't simply double-cross them right then and there on Liberio.

    He could have told Pieck, Reiner and Galliard and the military... he could've shot down the blimp... whether Levi and Mikasa or Armin were there becomes pointless from the moment they don't have a way to return home, they would all have died.

    Just by fighting against the War Hammer Titan Eren became exhausted and couldn't transform any more.

    If Pieck/Galliard/Reiner had been told of everything in advance, they would've managed to kill everyone and easily take Eren with them.

    Going out of your way to kill most of the Marleyan commanders doesn't make any sense because that still leaves Marley in shambles and defenseless in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    Zeke could've ended everything on Liberio soil, especially when you consider that the SL had what, only 12, 20 soldiers? What would they have done against thousands of Marleyans ready to fight, + 4 shifters?

    Even Armin in his Titan form would only be able to do so much, it's not like he could make it all the way back to Paradis on foot.

    And that would've been their best shot at ending the conflict then and there... why delay everything and go straight to the enemy land where they have more numbers? Why go there when you don't even know if you'll be killed right away?

    Also why not secretly invade Paradis and put troops there while their forces came to Liberio? In case the double-crossing happened, they would come home to find the Marleyan occupying their soil and easily shooting them down.

    In my opinion it simply doesn't make any sense.

    There's a lot of ways things could go, but I'm willing to bet that Zeke doing all this for Marley isn't one of them, and I'm 100% sure of that.
     
  12. POW

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    - I just love the unpredictability of this manga it keeps you on your toes.

    - For a moment I was curious if Pixas was involved somehow as maybe he saw Zackley being a danger if he was siding with the Military Police

    Zeke has spiked the punch bowl ! I wonder how many people drank that wine. Hopefully no one.
     
  13. Eigengrau

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    We saw all the higher ups drinking that wine though, in the chapter where they're discussing Historia's pregnancy and whatnot.
    :0
     
  14. AriesNoShion

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    Sorry I can't understand how persecuted people can turn into persecutor and think they are right about it. (And I won't take exemple IRL, but there are plenty of them, even these days) I undertsand why Eren wanted to show Marley that Eldians were strong, why he wanted to steal the WH power to show how strong they are, but threatening the entire world, killing their officials is an act of war. Yes lot of them would have joined the war anyway, but Eren denied them to have any kind of choice.
    And if I was an Eldian, I would be pissed about Eren. He is just one man. Not a Hero, not a savior in any way. Before the timeskip, his growth was that: he is NOT someone special. Yet he chose to act for his entire country anyway. How can you be so sure there was not a peacefull way to solve things? I m with Armin on this one (yikes).
    And the people of Paradise are stupid: if the entire world see them as violent devils, the first thing would be to not prove them right... All the people cheering Eren in Paradise Island,in spite of how little they know, are idiots imo. And I can't understand it.

    Killing generals, decisions makers is not a good thing especially when they know Marley can attack at any moment. Eren was in jail, he was not a dead walking man, this plan B is irrationaly excessive. And if we find out Eren knows about that, then for me and I hope for Mikasa & Co, he s lost and we can't count on him anymore.
    He's not a hero he is someone imposing his plan to everybody and risking all the lives of this entire country. That's something dictators do. I know Eldia is royalty, but even with this: it was not HIS decision. And I understand hw after all this some people want to replace him. He s not the King in any way.
    I don't say the military people are 100% right, nobody is imo, but their way of doing things offer them a lot of possibilities, Eren's way? No: it's make or break.

    Let me give you an example: Who was the first Eren's move in Liberio? Meet Reiner. If Reiner would have been aware of the plan, he would nt have act as he did. And Eren would have known Zeke leaked the plan. Wht do you understand how Eren can act on his own without explaining anything to his friends but it's unundertsandable for Zeke? It's exactly the same situation. People thinking they are so smart that they know better than everyone else.

    Plus I don't think Levi or hange would share all the information with Zeke, like the way they escaped and many other things that would be very careless.
    What would they have done against 4 shifters? They destroyed these 4 shifters haha, even with Zeke trying his best, they were completely beaten up. You think too much of Marley imo. And I think even Eren at this moment was very cautious about this plan, that's why he spend many months under cover in Marley. If he had suspected anything he would have canceled his plan (or he is stupid). And that would have been the last hance for Zeke to attempt anything. The brothers share on thing: they thing high rish, high reward.
    Even if you're right w are speaking about a kid who betrayed his own parents at 6 or something like that. Is it really odd tp think he could do such a thing now?
     
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  15. Eigengrau

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    In the context of this story, it's actually quite simple. I'm not saying every single Eldian inside the Walls will think the same way, but it's not strange at all to see people acting like that:

    - live your whole life like cattle, as a joke, inside the Walls;
    - find out your whole race is despised all over the world;
    - find out that your race can turn into Titans;
    - find out that centuries ago, your whole race had a worlwide Empire for thousands of years;
    - figure that you went from world ruler, to living inside cages.

    "If it's just us against the world, if everyone wants to see us dead no matter what we say or do, if they want to commit genocide against this without even wanting to see us and/or talk to us, then fuck them, we might as well bring the empire back and subjugate the whole world once again, it's our only right to reclaim the empire that we once had, especially after living like cattle for over a century."

    You might not agree with that, but that's a pretty logical thing to think in my opinion, and the Eldians inside the Walls can't really be blamed for it.

    Does it add more to the "cycles keep repeating" kind of thing? Yeah, it does, and it will never change, but that mindset makes a whole lot of sense.

    Probably pointless to bring this up, but let's look at the Jews (and other minorites) and the Nazis.
    After the genocide and millions of lives lost in the concentration camps, if the victims were given the choice to do the exact same thing to millions of Nazis, don't you think they would?

    Not, not ALL of them would want that, but some of them surely would.

    Anyway, it's a whole different thing with SnK, but it's a similar context.

    Eldians used to have an empire.
    Then the Marleyans flipped the game, and now the Eldians are looking to go back to the way things used to be.

    Imagine living most of your life as a slave. Your parents lived their whole lives as slaves too, and so did their parents, and the parents before then.
    And then one day, you find out that your whole family used to rule the world... wouldn't you think "hey, I am entitled to that"?

    So yeah like I said I think it makes a lot of sense. Could very well be their downfall, but after leaving for over a century inside the Walls you can't really fault them for that considering their history.

    They can't do anything about their genetics, and they can't change the way the world views them.

    If they're facing death and certain genocide, they might as well try and come back on top of things once again.

    Eren didn't deny them anything, he waited for the declaration of war which came from Willy himself, and we could see that everyone was supportive of Willy.
    Granted, Eren wasn't seeing everyone's reaction, but I think it was easy to tell, not like the rest of the world had much of a choice.

    That's highly debatable, considering the following Eren has currently amassed.
    I mean, he currently is pretty much the embodiment of the God of the Eldians considering he has the Founding Titan within him...
    As Floch said, he's someone who knows what has to be done and will gladly stain his hands with blood.

    From what we were told, there wasn't, and Eren couldn't afford to wait around because his lifespan was coming to an end... something had to be done, and the "50 year breeding plan" was extremely dumb, and that was the only plan they had when Eren went to Marley, and we already know he didn't want Historia to become a breeder/shifter...

    Eren had to do something, and he did...

    Why not? As we saw in the previous chapters, no one wanted to meet with the Eldians. They decided they were devils without even meeting them, talking to them, or knowing what they're like.
    [​IMG]

    The whole world had already made up their mind, and they couldn't do anything about it... they all want the Eldians to die and so on and so forth.
    [​IMG]

    Is it any surprising that the Eldians went "well fuck you then, want me to be the Devil you make me out to be even though you know literally nothing about me, what I look like, what I've been through, and don't even want to talk to me? FINE"?

    The rest of the world are the ones who put the Eldians in such a tight spot, not Eren or the other way around. It's the way things are. The Eldians wanted communication, but no one else did.


    If Marley - or anyone else - attacked, everyone would be good as dead, that's why a pre-emptive strike was the best course of action.
    Paradis doesn't have the numbers, technology or the firepower to fight off an invasion.

    They would be as good as dead, and having generals/decision makers wouldn't change any of that.

    As a matter of fact, everyone is still alive because of what Eren did on Liberio, otherwise the Marleyans would've attacked already and would've won.

    That's why it's so important to show the "rumbling" to the world, to effectively instill fear in them and make everyone re-think attacking Paradis.

    If someone decides to attack the island in full force, it's the end of Paradis/end of the Eldians, and no one can change that.
    But if they show the rumbling, if they show that the threat of the Wall Titans is now VERY real, then there's a chance that the Eldians will be left alone.

    Is it any surprising that the "fanatics" are making sure that Zeke/Eren come together to use the rumble? No, because currently that's the only thing they can do to ensure that the rest of the world doesn't come for them... literally that's the only reason.

    They more they wait to activate the rumble, the more time it gives the Marley/rest of the world to attack the island, and once they do it's over for everyone, the Eldians can't fight back at all.

    As I said above, there are no other "possibilities". Whether Eren does anything or not, the lives of every Eldian on Paradis are already at stake due to the coordinated attack brewing from the rest of the world, and that's not something "recent" that developed after the attack on Liberio, even before that they would've come for the island sooner or later.

    By not taking action (preventing Zeke and Eren meeting) and not showing the rumble - which is their only option at the moment to save themselves from obliteration - AND putting Eren in jail is what's endangering every single Eldian life, and Eren decided to change that by giving everyone more time and an actual way of using the rumbling.



    Yes, it is, because Zeke is the smartest (11/10) character so far, I think.

    Doing all of this, going around and around for such an overcomplicated plan just to say in the end that it was still all for Marley doesn't make sense, and doesn't align with his character or motivations.

    Like I said, there's a ton of things Zeke could have in his mind:
    - maybe he wants to eat all the shifters;
    - maybe he wants to become King of the world,
    - maybe he knows something about the curse and thus isn't exactly at risk of dying anytime soon;
    - remember what Zeke told Kiyomi too : "Marley doesn't know what happens when a Titan with royal blood comes into contact with the Founding Titan, an neither do you";
    - there may be a reason why he wants to do something with Eren instead of just passing his power down to Historia, he wants to do something before he dies...

    Any of those are more likely than him doing this "for Marley"... in my mind that simply doesn't make sense, not anymore.

    I mean, why not even leave a letter to Pieck or Magath saying this was all a plan of his?

    If this was all a plan for Zeke to bring the Coordinate to Marley, it was an extremely bad one: he all the military and naval commanders killed, as well as the port destroyed along with their naval fleet.

    Even if Zeke comes back with the Founding Titan, what are they going to do with it? They don't have anyone with royal blood to use it, and even if they did they they couldn't because of the will, and in Marley's current state, they could easily be overthrown by any other country, so this being just an overcomplicated plan just to get the Founding Titan doesn't make sense coming from a devotee to Marley, especially when it's Zeke we're talking about.
     
  16. mangah

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    well , I think Reiner will let Falco to eat him ...
    Gabi is Cabon Copy of Eren who think only about her/his revange .... and Falco is more like Reiner which act like shield for others ......
     
  17. mattiaildivino

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    Pieck can't be aware of Zeke's plan: we already saw how suspicious Zeke was and acted. Besides, we never had a sight of his thoughts, except for the moment he was crushing the Survey Corps, but even that could have been made to misled Pieck who was behind him at the moment.
    Instead, Pieck was really suffering and afraid, when Jean's squad destroyed her panzer unit, and was about to be killed as well. She can't possibly have faked her fighting. What I wonder, now, is what is Zeke really plotting. He did take his royal blood away from Marley's knowledge, and contributed in the killing of the Taybur and of so many Marleyans/Eldians.
    However, as he is indeed reaching his end, he may be heading to a revolutionary plan, to eradicate both Marley and Eldia at once.
     
  18. AriesNoShion

    AriesNoShion Registered User

    中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member

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    Oh no, you dared haha.
    First thing here: Eldians from Paradise Island met this fate because their king decided it was the good thing to do. It's not Marley who wiped out their memories and make them think all these lies. They can't be mad at them for that. They have done a lot of awful things, no need to add false accusations.

    Now, about the rest of the world, and not only Marley. People are afraid of Eldians because they are used as war machine by Marley. It's an awful idea, as your first contact to show nothing but the fact that you are a war machine. Hopefuly Hange & Co tried unsuccessfully to meet some of them before that. That's why Eren thinks they had no choice to do the 1st move and I get it.
    But this all "we have to rebuild our empire back" no. They learned nothing about their history. Even with their memory back, they do the exact same misatakes they did in the past. If Eldians can not exist without dominate the rest of the world, they deserve to disappear. As long as their survival is all about being stronger than anyone else, they don't deserve to win. And that's why the previous king decided to saty away on an island, far away of the rest of the world (and with so many angry imperfect subjects I m begining to understand why he did it).

    For the Jew / Nazi thing, I hope they wouldn't want to do such horrible thing to anyone. Humanity is capable of the worst because a lot of people decide to give up any human empathy. (they decide a group is "inferior" but that's just how they wan look themselves in a mirror every day). If we justify barbarism with barbarism, it's end of our spieces. And I think the people who have been hurt should be the people who don't want to hurt anyone, because they know what it's like to be hurt.

    And in the same way, if Eldians think the only way to be free is to destroy everything else, well imo they deserve to lose.

    The declaration of war was Tyburn's doing. Yes a lot of people n the crowd was happy with it, but look, the Asian clan was there too and yet they decided to give Eldians a chance. How can they be so sure there was not anyone in the same case. Half of them are only afraid of Marley who conviced them Eldians was the only problem. Eren didn't care about that, he decided to treat everyone as an ennemy.


    That's why I say that anyone who sees Eren like that is stupid. He has these powers because he is the son of his dad, nothing else. He's not smarter or wiser than anyone else. He only uses his power to do what he thinks is needed to be done. IRL we call that a dictator.

    Or not... they could have strengthen Paradise Island defenses and spread the same message from the king, like "We won't attack you, we want piece, but if you come, we will destroy you" I don't see how half of the countries would have disagree with that. And what purpose Eren achieved In Liberio anyway. He showed how big his bals were but for what? Having the WH Titan? And?
    Yes Eren will die, but what it is with all these selfish people who want to be the center of everything, just give your power to someone else if it allows Paradise to make more allies and avoid a global war.


    So if I understand there are only to ways to do things:
    -1) you let the world kill you because they decided you are evil (of course nobody would chose that)
    -2) you kill everyone because they don't want to listen what you have to say

    No, sorry, reality is far more complex than that. I go back to my ultra defense solution. Hit the people who hit you and these ones alone. Then more people can see what kinf of person you are. Eldians have 1 strategic advantage: they are on an island, they don't have to attack to protect themeselves.


    They didn't for the past 20 years, because the mindless Titans "protected" them. After seeing what a little squad with the shifters can do, you really think Paradise Island is unabale to protect themselves, even without the rumbling? I don't think so.
    And I still think that people willing to live should nt rely on therat alone. The main power of Eldians are Titans, but we know technology will soon surpass that. Even with millions of colosal Titans, there will be a time when the rumbling will be useless (think about nuclear weapon for example). It's a short term way to get what they want, but they are doomed at the end.
    Eldians won't survive with fear alone. They will have to show to the world their true nature and the fact they are looking for peace.


    Putting Eren in jail was not a problem. They could have replace him with anyone, with the new shifter and Historia they can use the rumbling whenever they want. Eren only want to do things hos way that's all. Even Zeke is not needed. The rumbling s fine as long Historia and the coordinate belong to Eldians, the rest is optional.


    Haha I know you like Zeke's character, and yes he seems to be a very smart man. Read chaper 82 just before Levi destroyed him. It's literally the only moment he speak to himself, he's alone. These words are the only one i believe he pronounced without lying. And you can feel not only he feels sorry for the soldier but he kinda hates their "weakness". ANd what he is saying about the ddad he killed himself:
    -"what are you getting all worked up about this? You're different than your father aren't you? It's all about having fun , no matter what it is you're doing. So let's just turn them all into proud little chunks of meat"

    and later to Eren:
    -"we are victims of that father of yours and you Eren, have been brainwashed by him"

    You can feel he regret killing him. What does Grisha done wrong? Why does he hate him?
    It makes no sense
     
    lindananahayashida likes this.
  19. Eigengrau

    Eigengrau Registered User

    有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity

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    (for the record, I'm not saying you're wrong/trying to prove you're wrong, just sharing my opinion)

    More than that, I'd say first and foremost everyone fears what the Eldians and the Eldian Empire used to be... being used by Marley is a very minor issue... I'm pretty sure everyone feared and despised the Eldians even before the Great Titan War, it's not something new, it's not a sentiment that was born from the moment the Marley took the powers from the Eldians and subjugated them.

    But that's not fair at all...

    The whole world wants them dead, so they're just supposed to lay down, die, and not do anything about it? As the little girl that was saved by Sasha said, the people inside the Walls have no reason to be hated on... they've lived inside the Walls for over a century not even knowing that there existed other people, countries and races...

    The Walldians have a right to fight back, they have a right to life just like anyone else, and if the only way they can live is by going to war against the rest of the world, why wouldn't they? Why would they just decide to let themselves get killed?

    How is it different to what the rest of the world is doing to the Eldians? They either want to use them as weapons, or completely erradicate the whole Eldian race from existence.

    So the rest of the world gets to exterminate them "because of sins of the past", but the Eldians can't fight back?

    They have every right to fight back and do the exact same things that were done to them.

    The whole world is still treating them as devils and lesser than human, people that didn't even know about their past, history and race, people that have nothing to do with the affairs of the rest of the world, so why would they let themselves be mistreated like that?

    How else can the Eldians be free, if not by destroying their enemies? The fault lies with the rest of the world, not the Eldians, the rest of the world (and their agenda) are what made the current Eldians do what they did.

    The Asians were there but they were already working with the Eldians at that point, so they were never in any danger..

    Well, that's because the world IS their enemy... and as we saw before that (flashback) the other groups of Eldian supporters were seen as "freaks", and they would never be at that festival.

    Everyone that Willy invited was more or less guaranteed to take in his deal.

    It's not as if Eren came to do what he did on his own... we ssaw the negotiations falling appart and not leaving him any other chance.

    Eren, as the Attack Titan, has a responsibility/duty to keep on pushing through, surely he wants to try an achieve something in his lifetime before dying, and he can't really be blamed for that.

    That's what the First King said, and look what Marley did, they sent RBAM and killed 250k people...

    No one would take them seriously and sit back not doing anything after what they did in Liberio, and like I said, there was no "strengthening" their defenses: Paradis cannot survive a full blown attack/invasion from the outside, plain and simple, which leads to your next question:

    They also destroyed the Marleyan port for their naval fleet, and prevented them from going to Paradis earlier than expected. If they had left the port alone, they would've gone to Paradis and fucked shit up, and no one would've had a chance of survival.

    What Eren did was necessary to buy time for everyone.
    [​IMG]

    They don't really have a strategic advantage at all. As I mentioned above, it hasn't even been 10 years since the Walls lost 250.000 people.
    They don't have enough people to defend the Walls, and they sure as hell don't have the means to do so either way.

    That's why they had to attack first and hard.
    [​IMG]

    What are they going to do against airplanes dropping bombs, Titans, or even soldiers inside the Walls?
    I mentioned this time and time again in previous threads: the Walls are 100% impossible to defend, because you don't have enough men and women to stand alongside the ENTIRE WALLS (x3 because 3 Walls) to guarantee that invaders don't get through.

    It's literally impossible to defend the Walls from all sides.
    Even with 2 shifters on their side, they can't stop enemy ships from docking on the island, and like I said they can't stop the planes either.

    Eventually the Walls would be overrun, easily.

    I'm not so sure nuclear weapons mean anything.
    Let's say they decided to drops bombs on Paradis; do they have the guarantee that ALL Colossal Titans would die in one shot?
    If they don't and start going in every direction, it would've been useless because they can't start dropping more nuclear bombs all over the world.

    Besides, getting rid of Paradis with nuclear bombs seems a little bit impossible to me, because you would need to bomb the whole island to make sure that nothing survives.

    But again, we know that nobody would ever do that because what the people are truly after are the resources on the island, so they would never drop nuclear bombs on it.

    If the Wall Titans got loose and started destroying other countries? Oh yeah, for sure, bombs would be dropped and cities wiped out, maybe even some Colossal Titans, but I don't see that happening on Paradis.

    And how are they going to do that when the whole world wants them dead, will kill them on sight, and won't even communicate with them, or see them as humans?

    It's like trying to prove to someone that you're human, and they're just like "lalalalalalalala"... it's pointless, nothing is going to change their mind, at least not through "normal" peace talks.



    But that would mean dooming Historia to a very short life and forcing her whole lineage to be baby-makers turned shifters to die at an early age...

    And because that was the only option they had and Eren was not okay with that, he went ahead to get Zeke so they could buy more time, maybe find a different solution.


    Trust me when I say this, this has nothing to do with liking a character or not, I'm 100% just looking at things from a character/plot development perspective, I'm not into "ships" or having favorite characters or anything like that, really, I could be doing the same sort of analysis for any other character.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with your last point about Zeke, but when he was talking to Kiyomi, he said he had to denounce Grisha and the rest because the Marleyans were close to discovering the truth, and if they did the whole Yeager family would be turned into Titans, Zeke included.

    I'm not sure if at the time of 82 Isayama had a clear idea of what he had in mind for what was coming next, but it wouldn't surprise me if he changed some things around.

    Zeke's whole monologue doesn't really sound like he regrets doing what he's doing, and that goes along with what he told Kiyomi as well...

    Just like Kruger had to kill all those Eldians to get to that point and give Grisha the Attack Titan Zeke, too, had to commit a lot of atrocities for the greater good.
     
  20. deyna

    deyna Registered User

    上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member

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    the azumabito clan is pretty much useless. they don't have any other duty other than becoming a mediator between paradis and zeke. if paradis fails in protecting their island, the hizuru's are finished. yet kiyomi still dare to have time to eye for some underground resources..

    i really want the azumabito to become the mediator between paradis and the rest of the world, since they are calling themselves a 'friend' to king fritz.
     
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