Discussion Shinsoo manipulation and properties

Ripcord

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Then how is it possible to have a non-shinso bomb?

Why can't powerful wavecontrollers just take about warships or just make them explode by manipulating them? Why don't they turn the floor enemies stand on into an attack?
Because a shinsoo bomb uses pure shinsoo as it’s attack.

A non-shinsoo bomb is... hmm I was gonna say just like Yeon’s flames but shinsoo resistance helps against that too. Oh dayam seems like a plot hole to me.... they HAVE to make that other bomb out of shinsoo...
 

Jack Van Burace

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Because a shinsoo bomb uses pure shinsoo as it’s attack.

A non-shinsoo bomb is... hmm I was gonna say just like Yeon’s flames but shinsoo resistance helps against that too. Oh dayam seems like a plot hole to me.... they HAVE to make that other bomb out of shinsoo...
A gum bomb sticks regardless of Shinsoo resistance the same way a bullet proof vest doesn't protect you from handcuffs. Even If both the bullet and the cuffs are made of the same material.

Btw, japan's First firearms were named literally "exploding flowers". The burst of the bullets leaving the barrel made Flower shapes in the Air as a result from friction and speed.
 

LushuMine

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Then how is it possible to have a non-shinso bomb?

Why can't powerful wavecontrollers just take about warships or just make them explode by manipulating them? Why don't they turn the floor enemies stand on into an attack?
As I said... it's shinsoo in its core. We are made of oxygen (65% by mass), carbon (18%), hydrogen (10%), nitrogen (3%), calcium (1.4%) and phosphorous (1.1%), Hydrogen + Oxygen make water, what is 70% of our body. Water can dissolve dirty, for example, but when we touch on dirty it get dissolved? No, because we don't behavour like water, once "transformed" water, not pure crystaline water. The CORE is shinsoo, but the things does not behaviour as pure shinsoo, once it is "transformed" shinsoo.
 

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A gum bomb sticks regardless of Shinsoo resistance the same way a bullet proof vest doesn't protect you from handcuffs. Even If both the bullet and the cuffs are made of the same material.

Btw, japan's First firearms were named literally "exploding flowers". The burst of the bullets leaving the barrel made Flower shapes in the Air as a result from friction and speed.
I see what you’re trying to do but the bomb’s fire/explosion should be the same as if a Regular made an explosion with shinsoo. But then swords are the same...
As I said... it's shinsoo in its core. We are made of oxygen (65% by mass), carbon (18%), hydrogen (10%), nitrogen (3%), calcium (1.4%) and phosphorous (1.1%), Hydrogen + Oxygen make water, what is 70% of our body. Water can dissolve dirty, for example, but when we touch on dirty it get dissolved? No, because we don't behavour like water, once "transformed" water, not pure crystaline water. The CORE is shinsoo, but the things does not behaviour as pure shinsoo, once it is "transformed" shinsoo.
I was 100% with you until this morning when I started to wonder about shinsoo based attacks that are turned into something.

What I mean is: if Rak gets hit by Yiwah’s flames (which were formed from shinsoo), will he resist the attack because of his shinsoo resistance or fire/heat resistance?

I think the answer is that it’s his flame resistance, which then gives a huge advantage to using a shinsoo quality - because you can side-step someone’s shinsoo resistance.
 

TheLastMartian

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Again there is 0 indication within the comic that Shinso makes everything in the tower. All the comic has said is that shinso makes up the atmosphere. The ground we walk on is not made up of oxygen and hydrogen but other elements, same as within the tower.
 

LushuMine

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I see what you’re trying to do but the bomb’s fire/explosion should be the same as if a Regular made an explosion with shinsoo. But then swords are the same...


I was 100% with you until this morning when I started to wonder about shinsoo based attacks that are turned into something.

What I mean is: if Rak gets hit by Yiwah’s flames (which were formed from shinsoo), will he resist the attack because of his shinsoo resistance or fire/heat resistance?

I think the answer is that it’s his flame resistance, which then gives a huge advantage to using a shinsoo quality - because you can side-step someone’s shinsoo resistance.
It’s difficult to say... like Baam avoided Zahard punches with his shinsoo resistance/reinforcement, no? I think for flames is the same, it could be avoided by shinsoo or physical resistance. It’s actually a combination of both. The bomb case I suppose he just caught Baam off guard.
 

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Again there is 0 indication within the comic that Shinso makes everything in the tower. All the comic has said is that shinso makes up the atmosphere. The ground we walk on is not made up of oxygen and hydrogen but other elements, same as within the tower.
Even if it doesn’t, shinsoo replaces water and we know that bodies are 70% water. This means that all the tower residents are at least 70% shinsoo.

Furthermore, water is used in cellular processes to make parts of the body, which would push the shinsoo content even higher. Give that shinsoo can be used by regulars to make rocks and fire, FOOD (as we know the Tower provides food), and that the blood of the administrator is shinsoo, I find it unlikely that other materials would be present.

You are right that there is no direct evidence that the rocks they stand on are made of shinsoo but I wouldn’t say there is no evidence at all.
 

TheLastMartian

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Even if it doesn’t, shinsoo replaces water and we know that bodies are 70% water. This means that all the tower residents are at least 70% shinsoo.

Furthermore, water is used in cellular processes to make parts of the body, which would push the shinsoo content even higher. Give that shinsoo can be used by regulars to make rocks and fire, FOOD (as we know the Tower provides food), and that the blood of the administrator is shinsoo, I find it unlikely that other materials would be present.

You are right that there is no direct evidence that the rocks they stand on are made of shinsoo but I wouldn’t say there is no evidence at all.
We have no idea what people in the tower are made of cause it's a fantasy world, it doesn't need to follow the same rules as the real world. Also there are many non human characters, (actually has the term human even every been used in ToG? Androssi has a horn... Who knows if Bam even has a penis) how much of their bodies are made of water?

Again there seems to be a lot of theories on here that are taken for granted as the truth when it has never been said in the comic.

Also it has never been stated that the blood of administrators is shinso.
 

kkck

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Also it has never been stated that the blood of administrators is shinso.
That was actually said at about the time the gang made it to the floor of death. Its also pretty much the reason the gang didn't drown.
 

TheLastMartian

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That was actually said at about the time the gang made it to the floor of death. Its also pretty much the reason the gang didn't drown.
I'll reread it later but my theory has been that admins are made entirely out of shinso. I do remember that they said the concentration of shinso on the floor of death is very low, of an admin died there, shouldn't the concentration be higher cause it's blood free flowed everywhere?

Anyways I'll reread it later when I have time but I don't remember that being the case and it doesn't make sense that floors with loving admins have higher shinso concentration unless shinso is not only the blood but that admins are 100% shinso creatures.




Yes re reading the chapters, the admins blood is shinso, but that still doesn't mean the tower itself is made of shinso or the people inside of it or the various things instead of the tower.
 
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Jack Van Burace

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Well How about Shinsoo materializing things? Like Yeon Woon's Hammer?

I think Shinsoo resistance might indeed not be about everything, but focused on Shinsoo in its RAW form. If you modify It to a physical form then you need physical resistance at that point, same for fire and all others. Could be an explanation...
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

If something is trully materialized out of Shinsoo, even If not everything is made of Shinsoo, they (all types of substances and Shinsoo) are at least interchangeable under right circunstances.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Heck, we even got people being disolved into ignition weapons, like Karakka wanted to do with Bam. Yes, If we consider matter as not Shinsoo, It can become or come from Shinsoo.
 

kkck

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My guess would be that shinsoo resistance at higher tiers is simply relevant when it comes to moving around shinsoo. . And benefits are likely not all that significant when it comes to the level of pressure, concentration or amount rankers can gather is generally just more than what it is feasible to have a natural shinsoo resistance level. Of course, it depends on the person.
 

Jack Van Burace

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My guess would be that shinsoo resistance at higher tiers is simply relevant when it comes to moving around shinsoo. . And benefits are likely not all that significant when it comes to the level of pressure, concentration or amount rankers can gather is generally just more than what it is feasible to have a natural shinsoo resistance level. Of course, it depends on the person.
Some attacks such as Floral Airwave don't require Shinsoo to be converted to any substance, so I take It that Shinsoo resistance is still relevant.
 

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Inside the tower it's is own space and it's made up of shinsoo to replicate the outside, everything in it is kinda artificial like npc and irregulars are pc, that might be the reason why urek treats everything like it has nothing to do with him, he just want to leave, you got robots, slime, birdmen, etc, depending what's outside the tower might just be only humans.

so in that sense everything other than irregulars and their main descendants, are shinsoo based life forms or a couple descendants of ancient being that wondered into the the tower maybe?

Many may not like the way gustang and the other look at the tower inhabitants, but is it any different than looking at a tree? If your pov everything is made entirely of shinsoo, tower to irregulars might be the same as being trapped in a mmo.
 

kkck

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Shinsu reinforcement is just an skill that "everyone" can use to strenghten physical stats, this alone proves that it has nothing to do with shinsu shapes and qualities (that only rare special people possess anyway).
Miseng's quality is sudden shinsu "bursts", she can greatly amplies her shinsu power for an instant and it doesn't apply to just shinsu strenghtening but any other shinsu skills (as shown when she boosted Endorsi's attack against Charlie).
No, that instance proves that pretty much anything can be a shinsoo quality. The point is not that everyone necessarily has a shinsoo shape, rather that everyone's shinsoo has things it is suited for and others that it isn't suited for. In miseng's case, her shinsoo is suited to that shinsoo boost thing, which by all appearances is a type of reinforcement. The series has shown that there are different types of shinsoo reinforcement. Bam for instance learned reinforcement in the time skip between season 1 and 2 and then he learned a different type of reinforcement from the GoGs at the hell train.

As for the support miseng provided androsi with, iirc that was done via miseng's observer.
 

hblock

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No, that instance proves that pretty much anything can be a shinsoo quality. The point is not that everyone necessarily has a shinsoo shape, rather that everyone's shinsoo has things it is suited for and others that it isn't suited for. In miseng's case, her shinsoo is suited to that shinsoo boost thing, which by all appearances is a type of reinforcement. The series has shown that there are different types of shinsoo reinforcement. Bam for instance learned reinforcement in the time skip between season 1 and 2 and then he learned a different type of reinforcement from the GoGs at the hell train.
Well, yeah you said it, the Ha being skilled in shinsu strenghtening doesn't mean shinsu strenghtening is a quality just like lighthouse control isn't a quality in Tu Peri's case.

For an ability to be considered as such, it has to be :
-very rare (everyone and their mothers can use shinsu strenghtening).
-Can be expressed both internally (body reinforcement) and externally (external shinsu constructs like swords, spears, Orbs, etc).
In summary, shinsu qualities and shapres are kinda like bloodline limits in Naruto.

As for Miseng, again her quality is shinsu "burst" which has absolutely nothing wiht shinsu strenghtening. Baam also learned "skills" from the guardian, not a KG-like ability.
 
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kkck

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Well, yeah you said it, the Ha being skilled in shinsu strenghtening doesn't mean shinsu strenghtening is a quality just like lighthouse control isn't a quality in Tu Peri's case.

For an ability to be considered as such, it has to be :
-very rare (everyone and their mothers can use shinsu strenghtening).
-Can be expressed both internally (body reinforcement) and externally (external shinsu constructs like swords, spears, Orbs, etc).
In summary, shinsu qualities and shapres are kinda like bloodline limits in Naruto.

As for Miseng, again her quality is shinsu "burst" which has absolutely nothing wiht shinsu strenghtening. Baam also learned "skills" from the guardian, not a KG-like.
What? How does that make any sense? It's EXTREMELY likely that the ha's shinsoo qualities are exactly shinsoo reinforcement. Hence why they excel at it. We know for a fact that the ha are particularly good at it. Yurin was even the first one of the warriors to use shinsoo to reinforce her body according to the lore. It makes perfect sense that Ha's shinsoo is uniquely suited to reinforcement. I am surprise someone who disagrees with something so basic even exists at this point...

As for those two conditions you mention for something to be considered a shinsoo quality... You pretty much made them up and have no real basis on anything that has happened in the story lol. Shinsoo qualities and shapes are basically just stuff your shinsoo is suited to and can be pretty much anything. Whether it is making orbs or spears or needles or reinforcing your body. Also, bam has never used internal shinsoo quality control with his orb. We don't even know if he can. So far only zahard and eduan have shown internal quality shinsoo control. IIRC zahard did it, for a moment and then never specifically evidenced it again (which is not to say he didn't use it) with a shinwonryu golden bang and eduan did it with a lightning bang.
 

sazon

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I don't know why so much insistence on Baam's skills as a fisherman has already been made clear that when it comes to a high level fight, he is always at a disadvantage in that position. Against regulars he always did well because he is an irregular, but when he faced Data Zahard, he only managed to stand out when he took the position of a WC. Baam's skills as a fisherman depend on his strengthening of Shinsoo, which differs from people like Yuri, Androssi, Cha, Novick etc, people who besides the strong strengthening of Shinsoo, have a high physical ability.

Regarding Shinsoo's quality, remember that it is a type of Shinsoo manipulation used by ancient rankers, Kallavan made this very clear during his fight with the Dowon wall keeper. That is, it is quite capable of most of the rankers that we have seen to date, they do not even use the Shinsoo manipulation suited to them and that training their Shinsoo quality is something specific to privileged people, who can be trained by old rankers (such as members of high level of the 10 families).
 

hblock

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You pretty much made them up and have no real basis on anything that has happened in the story
Edahn literally explained it as such.

Also, bam has never used internal shinsoo quality control with his orb
Orb is a shinsu shape not quality.

Yurin was even the first one of the warriors to use shinsoo to reinforce her body according to the lore
Yeah, but every one and their mothers knows how to use shinsu strengthening, in contrast, among the FHs, only Edahn can use the lithening spear, only Jahad can use the golden needle, only Hon can use the Arie sword and the list is long.
Shinsu qualities and shapes are the specifics of only certain exceptional and rare individuals.
 

kkck

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Edahn literally explained it as such.


Orb is a shinsu shape not quality.


Yeah, but every one and their mothers knows how to use shinsu strengthening, in contrast, among the FHs, only Edahn can use the lithening spear, only Jahad can use the golden needle, only Hon can use the Arie sword and the list is long.
Shinsu qualities and shapes are the specifics of only certain exceptional and rare individuals.
He did not...

Sure, but the clicker's purpuse is to find shinsoo qualities and shapes... or more broadly, what the user's shinsoo is suited to. That's why shape or quality wise there isn't a consistency in what it finds. The orb is an item, but it doesn't have an element associated to it. Meanwhile aguero and rak both got a shape and quality. Androsi got her... thing but by all appearances there is no element to it. And miseng simply learned that her shinsoo is suited to reinforcement. Not sure if this bit is entirely accurate but for eduan lightning (no shape) was implied to be his first shinsoo quality.

That... not true. As in, factually incorrect. Nothing suggests shinsoo qualities are unique. Heck, eduan says he also has an ice spear IIRC. Shinsoo qualities can be rare but nothing suggests they are unique. Eduan's phrasing wouldn't even make sense if shinsoo qualities were unique as you say. As each one wouldn't be "rare" implying that few people have it, it would be "unique". Maybe not everyone has shinsoo qualities but as far as we know more than one user can have a given shinsoo quality. If anything that is why people from the same families can share traits like they do.
 
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