This isn't true , the manwha disprove what you just said at they first meeting Ran use his shinsoo skill alone but can't compare with Anak and the second time he used the lighting pill with use a mix of physical ability and shinsoo electricity plus martial art .
Much weaker as I said. He even told his friend you should not defend against her attack. Let me remind you what Ran did in their first fight, not even once Ran tried to defend against one of her attacks. He used his shinsu manipulation techniques to hide in the black cloud from the BEGNINING. Manhwa apparently disproves you, not me, though.
Let's use exaggeration to prove our point. Someone who learned to use shinsu reinforcement one day after learning it (according to Androssi), sucks at shinsu! At the time, she could produce more bangs than Ran, but she sucks because her control is not as good as Ran's! Nice!
Of course my number are arbritary , i took it to make a point . But hey if you think i am wrong what are the number , because you guys claimed that it was 10000 amplification .
You can make an example to clarify your point even if your example has a problem. It's ok. But if you try to prove your point with only a faulty example, then, that's a huge problem. In your case, it was the latter. I didn't mention 10000 or something and you even said 'you guys'. Am I responsible for what others have said? I remember numbers for bodies several times in the story, and coincidently, that was one of my problems. How can your body be stronger, say, one million times than others but when you punch a normal regular from the second floor, he doesn't turn to dust? I always took it with a bit of salt. I thought maybe they were using exaggeration or SIU doesn't show it well for artistic reasons.
I mean I don't see a problem here. I even said so in my first post. The problem was that you claimed that shinsu manipulation will lag behind body strength and I disagreed here with this claim.
LOL no, it wasn't five years. He spent 6 years just training with FUG. Two or three years with the Wangnan team and another one or two for more training his BODY. Then, we heard that comment about his body.
Train a LOT before entering the tower? Ehwa entered the tower at the age of 14 for your information. And Let us ignore that Bam was born by two irregulars, not one. So he should've had a massive genetic advantage over them and 10 years difference should've amounted to nothing. However, we saw something else. That his body was weak af.
So i will repeat myself if Baam is inferior to Khun , Yihwa and Ran in physical aspect , does that mean at his peak Baam if he were to get a family with normal women, his children will be far more inferior to other children of GW ?
Second question, we know that all irregular have monstrous body and it is why they child have crazy body , so his Baam going to be the exception where without reinforcement they will be able to easily take 100 or 1000 Baam ?
When did I state that his body will remain weak for the remainder of the series? As someone else mentioned here, his body will grow at a much faster rate from now on thanks to special training from Ha Cha. Second, as several times mentioned in the story and by SIU, his body is changing because of thorns.
So let me ask you , we saw Baam attack top tier with his fist and other martial art and you think that Baam body is still inferior to AA , Yihwa , Ran and that everything is just shinsoo reinforcement ?
Simply I'm not sure at what stage his body is. Even if his body is stronger than theirs, your claim is still not valid. You should differentiate between the factors that changed his body and then, determine what the major factor are. Is it thorn, genetic, or something else? Let me remind you again when you try to do that, fight the temptation to use arbitrary numbers.
I mean Baam doesn't have any problem with his body , and the same mad dog you mentionned got hurt when hitting BAam body , when BAam was holding back , BAam is casually engaging HR in close fight , what weakness are you even speaking about .
What are you talking about? Maddog said that Bam's shinsu boost was at least as strong as the Blood Tamara. He was talking about shinsu manipulation, not his body. This even supports my claim. Thanks, dude.
I honestly don't have the time to post walls of text right now. But I''ll just say one thing about the Baam's body issue:
Despite Baam's rapid growth and the belief that Baam can apparently be the best in every category. You'll often see posts like "Baam couldn't keep up physically because the others have a head start".
It sounds so wrong when we know how he easily outclassed tons of Regulars/Rankers in several categories in no time. You can't have it both ways.
Saying that Baam's innate physical abilities are at the level of the FH and even the average FH descendant is denying the facts that we know.
@Turtle hunter No Irregular is perfect. They are pretty much divine beings compared to Regulars but they all have their strong and weak points. Just like a High Ranker can be good at every position, but he'll obviously be better at his main one.
Shinsoo is above everything I agree , but people who rely more on their physical might(typically Fishermen) will use both for their techniques. If someone is using Shinsoo Reinforcement for example, their physical abilities obviously matter, when someone is using an Orb however or a regular Wave Controller technique, they don't.
The thing is, everyone and their mothers past a certain point always has shinsu reinforcement active. Baam never "turns it off" at least completely especially in a fight.
In the same way we will never see Ran, Ehwa or Aguero fighting cqc without being reinforced.
To prove something about physical strength you would need to be against an administrator.
S3 Baam never fought without it.
That said i don't see Baam's body right now being weaker than an Aguero or Ehwa. Baam's physical body strength is growing for a fact, and ever since the training with Ha Chai it is confirmed to keep growing at a *faster* rate than ever before.
I could see Baam having just reached relative parity with other GF Regulars (even tho i would already consider him superior, at least excluding Ha's), but for sure he will grow to be sturdier than any other Regular eventually.
They know it but I don't think they are always using it by default. Though at certain moments you can guess that they are. See Lilial in the previous chapter for example, she only started using it when Lime was running away.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also, yeah, Anak isn't bad at using Shinsoo:
[Season 2] Chapter 75
They say kids grow up as they fight.
But if they fight like that...
The reason why Ran smiled when Anak used shinsoo is that
physical reinforcement becomes drastically weaker the moment you form a baang.
Performing both physical reinforcement and
baang management is harder than you think. ^^;
I actually sent in an edited version that included an
explanation about that, but it wasn't changed.
I'm not sure if it was omitted in between or if it was just my mistake.
I didn't include an explanation at first because
I thought that'd kill the speed of the fighting scene.
I think I need to think about it a little more before I decide
whether it needs to be fixed or not haha
Although Anak does have a higher baang count than Ran,
you could say that Ran has the upper hand in terms of efficiency.
By the same logic, it cannot be said that Anak is
a better Wave Controller than the Rauloi (Laure) of Part 1 ^^
I honestly don't have the time to post walls of text right now. But I''ll just say one thing about the Baam's body issue:
Despite Baam's rapid growth and the belief that Baam can apparently be the best in every category. You'll often see posts like "Baam couldn't keep up physically because the others have a head start".
It sounds so wrong when we know how he easily outclassed tons of Regulars/Rankers in several categories in no time. You can't have it both ways.
Saying that Baam's innate physical abilities are at the level of the FH and even the average FH descendant is denying the facts that we know.
@Turtle hunter No Irregular is perfect. They are pretty much divine beings compared to Regulars but they all have their strong and weak points. Just like a High Ranker can be good at every position, but he'll obviously be better at his main one.
Shinsoo is above everything I agree , but people who rely more on their physical might(typically Fishermen) will use both for their techniques. If someone is using Shinsoo Reinforcement for example, their physical abilities obviously matter, when someone is using an Orb however or a regular Wave Controller technique, they don't.
They know it but I don't think they are always using it by default. Though at certain moments you can guess that they are. See Lilial in the previous chapter for example, she only started using it when Lime was running away.
I of course don't have proof but i don't think a named skill "shinsu boost" like what Lilial used (much like what Jinsung used after taking the first beating from Kallavan) means that before that moment her body wasn't reinforced with shinsu at all.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Talking about Jahad princesses bodies being 10000 times stronger than normal people. I would interpret that as fully grown Jahad princesses (ex. adult Maschenny) should have bodies 10000 stronger than a random tower inhabitant. Not even a F2 Regular.
I don't see F2 Endorsi body being 10000x a Shibisu. Even with shinsu reinforcement it would be hard to imagine.
I think that it's full of possible reasons, we might never really get an answer.
My opinion is that while Aguero for example as an extremely gifted GF descendant has been training since he was little, was already familiar with shinsu reinforcement even before becoming a Regular for example, Baam literally did nothing.
He was living in a cave, without shinsu probably. Once he started training results came really fast but still, before S3 he had been in the Tower for what ? 6 years ? For sure he is not that gifted in physical strength, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter because eventually he will become a monster compared to a normal GF Regular, the amount of Shinsu circulating in his body is so much that he will just keep growing.
its just like in real word i guess. Some people can make like 10-12 kilos of muscle in their first year, but some people do it in half year or maybe even lesser. Nobody starts as strong without any kind of training even if you have best genetics in the world, GF regulars can probably build muscle as much as in few years compared to non-GF regulars who trained for their whole life. And zahard princess can build muscles even much faster. Baam was basically the physically weakest person on whole tower when he just entered, due to being malnourished for a long time and not even seeing sun(his vitamins all below average especially vitamin D) and because of that it took him quite time to getting to surpass GF regular physical abilities(being deficent in vitamins make you build muscle much slower). And also him not lifting but doing martial art training whole day does not help with his physical strength either. Physical strength is his only weakness(compared to his combat prowess) for now, and that will go away if he starts to lift weights. He is a skinny bi*ch for now
I of course don't have proof but i don't think a named skill "shinsu boost" like what Lilial used (much like what Jinsung used after taking the first beating from Kallavan) means that before that moment her body wasn't reinforced with shinsu at all.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Talking about Jahad princesses bodies being 10000 times stronger than normal people. I would interpret that as fully grown Jahad princesses (ex. adult Maschenny) should have bodies 10000 stronger than a random tower inhabitant. Not even a F2 Regular.
I don't see F2 Endorsi body being 10000x a Shibisu. Even with shinsu reinforcement it would be hard to imagine.
I agree with 10000x case. It seems too much for even a ranker zahard princess to be 10000x stronger than average F-rank regular. I guess only the fully-grown zahard princess who spent thousands of years consodilating their high ranker position could be 10000x stronger than average regulars. Because regular zahard princess would have slain even the best A-rank regulars just by shrugging their shoulders and sending shockwaves that could kill even rankers. If a average person deadlifts 5 tons in there it means the fully grown zahard princess can deadlift 50000 tons of weight. In that case fully grown zahard would use 2500 Tons(in each hand) of weight just for strict(not the ones which some people do it by swinging their whole body not side delt) lateral raises which is 500x stronger than average persons deadlift. Just imagine their side delts would be 500x stronger than average persons whole body strength...(and a Ha zahard princess would be even stronger i guess?) Even the strongest man of this world such as eddie hall,halfthor,brian shaw cant even lateral raise half of average man's deadlift. I think yuri might be close to maschenny in terms of physical prowess due to her ha genetics.
Much weaker as I said. He even told his friend you should not defend against her attack. Let me remind you what Ran did in their first fight, not even once Ran tried to defend against one of her attacks. He used his shinsu manipulation techniques to hide in the black cloud from the BEGNINING. Manhwa apparently disproves you, not me, though.
It actually disprove you point and you are actually justifying my point but you can't even see it ...
You said Ran overwhelmed her with his shinsoo skill and right now you just said that Ran didn't ever fight her in close combat right ? Yes Ran couldn't fight Ran at close combat but when he used his shinsoo skill ALONE he couldn't even injure her one time .
WHen did Ran manage to injure Anak ? When he used both Shinsoo skill and physical ability , you argument that Ran managed to dominate or fight Anak only because of his shinsoo skill is simply wrong .
Let's use exaggeration to prove our point. Someone who learned to use shinsu reinforcement one day after learning it (according to Androssi), sucks at shinsu! At the time, she could produce more bangs than Ran, but she sucks because her control is not as good as Ran's! Nice!
What exageration ? You do realize that being gifted at using shinsoo depend on a serie of factor and that just being able to use 5 bangs isn't enough to justify her being gifted at shinsoo right ? The concentration and the amont matter just as much as the number of bang .
As for Anak learning reinforcement in one day , that is impressive of course , but not enough to say that she is gifted compared to other talent .
Yihwa , Endorsi , Ran , Most talented people in TOG , have superior ability in handling shinsoo that in just physical ability , Anak is the exception to that rule . Not only are her shinsoo ability not her equal to her physical ability but they are far behind . That would only be the case if compared to other talent in shinsoo she is average or not gifted .
You can make an example to clarify your point even if your example has a problem. It's ok. But if you try to prove your point with only a faulty example, then, that's a huge problem. In your case, it was the latter. I didn't mention 10000 or something and you even said 'you guys'. Am I responsible for what others have said? I remember numbers for bodies several times in the story, and coincidently, that was one of my problems. How can your body be stronger, say, one million times than others but when you punch a normal regular from the second floor, he doesn't turn to dust? I always took it with a bit of salt. I thought maybe they were using exaggeration or SIU doesn't show it well for artistic reasons.
My example isn't faulty and i am pretty sure i used if which show i don't claim that princess body are only 3 stronger . My point still stand that in TOG there is a correlation between you body and you shinsoo ability and that if you only got a boost in physical ability , the gap between you shinsoo ability and physical then you physical ability should either close up to you shinsoo one or lag behind . This simply hasn't proven to be true in any regard , princess shinsoo ability always seem a lot better than they physical ability .
You want to make the clam that Zahard blood only strengthen they physical body when .
1. Zahard shinsoo ability are far greater than his physical ability
2. It would make no sense , for Zahard best aspect to basically nulified for a secondary one
3. Princess shinsoo ability are overall a lot better than they physical one .
4. It seems absurd for one aspect to be the only thing that is amplified .
Or maybe you have another explanation that would explain why Zahard main traits would be nullified .
Another question would other GW if they were to make a blood transfer would they only transfer they physical attribute , for Gustang or Blossom would it only be shinsoo .
So what are you number , how much stronger does a zahard princess body get after she take Zahard blood ? You don't have to give a exact number just a scale , it seems you think like me that 10000 is ridiculous , but i am sure you could give a ranger between 1 to 5 , 5 to 10 10 to 100 , 100 to 1000 .
Personally i think it should be between 1 to 10 and maybe 20 at max .
In most talented people there is a correlation between they physical ability and they shinsoo ability , it isn't equal but there is some good decent correlation , Anak may be the exception to that but in general there is a good correlation
I mean I don't see a problem here. I even said so in my first post. The problem was that you claimed that shinsu manipulation will lag behind body strength and I disagreed here with this claim.
Nope my point was that if Jahad blood give a high multiplier given the decent correlation between shinshoo ability and you physical ability , you shinsoo skill should either lag behind or be close which hasn't be showed at all .
LOL no, it wasn't five years. He spent 6 years just training with FUG. Two or three years with the Wangnan team and another one or two for more training his BODY. Then, we heard that comment about his body.
Train a LOT before entering the tower? Ehwa entered the tower at the age of 14 for your information. And Let us ignore that Bam was born by two irregulars, not one. So he should've had a massive genetic advantage over them and 10 years difference should've amounted to nothing. However, we saw something else. That his body was weak af.
Yeah and Ehwa was training way before 14 and could even use shinsoo way before that .
One thing that you forget is that Baam shinsoo ability were progressing much more gradually prior to the torn and the revolution .
For example if we assume that Baam without is the form with his real talent and that we imagine that Baam fought Ran at the workshop when he spent 6 years before in the tower , where do you scale Baam back then compared to Ran back then .
It goes back to my point , that the torn is skewing you guys perspective , Baam body look weak only in so far that the torn is powering his shinsoo ability which make them look far greater than his physical ability .
When did I state that his body will remain weak for the remainder of the series? As someone else mentioned here, his body will grow at a much faster rate from now on thanks to special training from Ha Cha. Second, as several times mentioned in the story and by SIU, his body is changing because of thorns.
So what is you point then ? That Baam talent in physical aspect his inferior to Yihwa , AA and Ran without the torn ?
So to be clear where do you put Baam talent in his physical aspect without torn or shinsoo boost ?
How much is Baam lacking compared to other irregular . If he is as weak as you make it seems where did it come from ? His 2 parents also have weak body ? Both of them ?
AA , Rak etc > Yihwa , Ran > Endorsi and other princess > Kallavan > yuri > Enne and Adori > irregular
Where do you scale Baam talent in physical ability ?
Simply I'm not sure at what stage his body is. Even if his body is stronger than theirs, your claim is still not valid. You should differentiate between the factors that changed his body and then, determine what the major factor are. Is it thorn, genetic, or something else? Let me remind you again when you try to do that, fight the temptation to use arbitrary numbers.
What are you talking about? Maddog said that Bam's shinsu boost was at least as strong as the Blood Tamara. He was talking about shinsu manipulation, not his body. This even supports my claim. Thanks, dude.
Please do explain how would he know that Baam was this hard only or mainly because of Baam shinsoo reinforcement . Because i don't think you could prove me how he knew that .
The reality is this , there is no where in this manwha where it is said that princess don't receive a shinsoo boost , you guys just assumed that because it wasn't said that it must mean that there is no boost . We don't have to justify anything, you guys need to prove us that princess only receive a physical boost .
The second reality is this , princess best skill by far are shinsoo related skill like every other fighter who don't receive jahad blood .
@Turtle hunter No Irregular is perfect. They are pretty much divine beings compared to Regulars but they all have their strong and weak points. Just like a High Ranker can be good at every position, but he'll obviously be better at his main one.
No irregular have weak point and i would gladly one you to point me which irregular have weak point . I don't think you could name one weak point of a fully wrong irregular .
What you are speaking about is specialization vs being good all around . having a specialization doesn't mean that you are weak in other area , it mean you are average or not as impressive in other area and very good in one .
Stephen curry is extremely good at shooting but i wouldn't say that the other area are weak point of his .
Zahard being a beast as a fishermen doesn't mean Gustang one isn't extremely proficient in that position , even if he was the weakest in that position . Blossom being the best wave controller doesn't mean that Zahard isn't gifted in it too .
I think the data arc show my point . We all thought Zahard was above other GW in body ability until we saw that Edhuan had no problem fighting Zahard with his bary body , Edhuan isn't a fishermen but a spearbearer but he was enough to fight Zahard in that domain .
Irregular don't have weakness , they have area where they are more proficient in , that is it .
Regarding the princesses power, I was thinking about how strong are the Regulars we know of (up to the hidden floor arc) just to look at the bigger picture.
I would rank them in raw power/talent excluding items or strange powers not innate to them (so wolf stays, special inventories, firefish, or bong bong doesn't) like this:
d.Maschenny > Endorsi > Ran, Elaine, Anak > Aguero.
Now just looking at a talented Khun member like Aguero, it makes it pretty clear that talent wise GF members can't really surpass a Ran or an Elaine or at least not by huge margins unless they are beings like double irregular dd.
My question is, if Zahard power only amplified physical strength and nothing else. How do you explain the enourmous gap between a Khun Ran compared to a d.Maschenny ? I could see a physically strengthened Ran being capable of beating Endorsi in a hard fight, i could never imagine him beating d.Maschenny just with that and at the same time i find it hard to believe Maschenny was born with much superior talent or had better teachers. Just look at Maschenny throwing a transcendental skill, or killing a big breeder so easily, Ran just didn't have it in him against Inieta, not by a long shot. And if you would argue that d. Eduan would have trained him i would point you right back at Endorsi, being stronger than Ran and nowhere near d.Maschenny.
So at that point 3 are the options:
1 Ren with more physical strength would stomp Endorsi
2 Maschenny was extremely more talented than Ren
3 Zahard power boosted Maschenny considerably in both shinsu and physical departments
I find the number 3 option the far more likely one tbh. Also remember when D Rank Yuri was training with A Rank Cheonhee ? She was going easy on Cheonhee to not make her look too bad and in response to someone calling Yuri the most talented person in the family, Cheonhee was thinking about Yuri having specifically a weak punch. Not lacking shinsu skills, specifically a weak punch. Just throwing it out there to speculate.
I think not only maschenny had greater talent than Ran, she was also trained by khun eduan on hidden floor which ran never got to experience. And zahard's blood improving her physical prowess made the difference even vaster.
Also no, i dont agree with zahard's blood improving anything else other than physical prowess. It's quite used like steroids nothing else. Zahard princess even before taking zahard blood were already much more talented than their peers, such as physical prowess, shinsoo control, shinsoo manipulation etc. Zahard's blood improving their physical prowess didnt just improve their physical prowess it enchanced every single skill they had. People with stronger bodies might absorb more shinsoo to their bodies, obviously wave controllers can absorb more but what if the wave controller had stronger body? He could simply absorb more than if he did with a weak body. That's why zahard's blood though only enchances their physical prowess, it also indirectly improves almost their every combat related skills i guess.
I disagree, Aguero was strongest after maschenny, and could likely even beat pre-eduan training baam.
I think not only maschenny had greater talent than Ran, she was also trained by khun eduan on hidden floor which ran never got to experience. And zahard's blood improving her physical prowess made the difference even vaster.
Also no, i dont agree with zahard's blood improving anything else other than physical prowess. It's quite used like steroids nothing else. Zahard princess even before taking zahard blood were already much more talented than their peers, such as physical prowess, shinsoo control, shinsoo manipulation etc. Zahard's blood improving their physical prowess didnt just improve their physical prowess it enchanced every single skill they had. People with stronger bodies might absorb more shinsoo to their bodies, obviously wave controllers can absorb more but what if the wave controller had stronger body? He could simply absorb more than if he did with a weak body. That's why zahard's blood though only enchances their physical prowess, it also indirectly improves almost their every combat related skills i guess.
I agree with the last part of your post, as that was my position to begin with. I also think it may be a physical boost that indirectly influences their shinsu skill or quantity manageable by the body.
As per Aguero being inherently the strongest Regular behind d.Mas i disagree (if anything because SIU always put Endorsi as the strongest of the bunch). I could see him reaching the trio i put ahead of him if he used his spear and ice affinity without holding back, otherwise he hasn't shown much, especially compared to Elaine and Ran without Beta assisting him.
I agree with the last part of your post, as that was my position to begin with. I also think it may be a physical boost that indirectly influences their shinsu skill or quantity manageable by the body.
As per Aguero being inherently the strongest Regular behind d.Mas i disagree (if anything because SIU always put Endorsi as the strongest of the bunch). I could see him reaching the trio i put ahead of him if he used his spear and ice affinity without holding back, otherwise he hasn't shown much, especially compared to Elaine and Ran without Beta assisting him.
bro i just realized something, i thought asensio was aguero what the hell... i was gone away from TOG that i forgot the name of asensio... I meant asensio sorry brother...
Endorsi >= Elaine >> Bueslar Eliot >(>) Ran/Anak.
Elaine put one hell of a fight against Thorn Baam, this alone puts her on another standing compared to the likes of Ran/Inieta.
And AA became stronger than Ran after unlocking the ice spear.
There's no way Edahn would've spent time training irrelevant, disposable fodders (from his PoV). Besides, Data versions are the exact copy of their corresponding regs when they just got there.
Hmmm, bam has been a decent bit stronger than ran for a decent while. Back at the hand of arlen bam easily defeated both ran and novick simply on account of having more bangs than both. I suppose ran didn't use the lightning pill but it is unlikely that in between then and the name hunt station he managed to bridge the gap meaningfully. Androsi in turn has always stood out a fair bit from the rest of bam's companion, the implication has always been that androsi is ahead of anak in physical specks and in combat skill (outside of that I do think anak having 4 bangs during the workshop game with the guns suggests her talents probably are more shinsoo control related than physical though).
Aguero... talent wise the guy is a mystery (and an oddity). I think the hidden floor specifically recontextualized how talented he is supposed to be but it's unclear where exactly he stands. In reality he should be far more talented than anyone in his family could have possibly known. Since he didn't even try back when he could have stood out to his family.
There's no way Edahn would've spent time training irrelevant, disposable fodders (from his PoV). Besides, Data versions are the exact copy of their corresponding regs when they just got there.
Maschenny asensio and the other icarus who kept casting spells were not irrelevant to eduan. He only kept them as his subordinates, and most likely killed his other children. Maschenny, asensio and icarus might get taught by data eduan himself.
IIRC the implication during the hidden floor was that data folk couldn't become stronger via training. They simply remained for eternity as they were when they were created.
