Bonus Round Singles - Duke vs Tokugawa

[Kaoz]

Singles - Bonus​

VERSUS​

Serve order: Tokugawa -> Duke


Have fun discussing.

 

[Phantron]

I voted for Tokugawa since it looks like Duke got his place for being Byoduoin's sidekick, as he's certainly done nothing that'd live up to his badge rank.

 

[LetalHawk]

Duke's only DH and, like Phantron said, he got his No.3 badge by being a yes-man to Byodouin.

Tokugawa will most likely win this match. DH might give him some trouble, but Tokugawa is the superior player here. Duke has nothing outside DH tbh, and Tokugawa will counter it and win.

 

[-Ken-]

Tokugawa beat Echizen, which is a far more impressive feats than beating Gin.

 

[Hardy]

Echizen, as far as we know, didn't use TnK at all in NPoT. Nationals! Yukimura would had raped Echizen just like Tokugawa did. You'd say Nationals! Yukimura > Duke because of that? (of course not btw, he needed an upgrade to defeat No. 11).

Tokuwaga was overwhelmed by the SPOT shot. Ryoga is able to return it easily. By your "higher rank, better player" logic, Duke > Ryoga >> Tokugawa.

What do we know about Tokuwaga? He has 10 at once... cool. He raped an Echizen without Muga.

What do we know about Duke? He made PoT's strongest player (BY FAR) fly like 50 meters... nothing else though, but he's the No. 3.

Unless Tokugawa gets SPOT or something like that, Duke wins here.

 

[LetalHawk]

Why Duke would beat Kazuya? He raped Echizen but wasn't even playing with all his strength. He will probably give a close match to Byodouin and somehow return the SSS (there's a reason he's playing against him and I don't see him being defeated with just that shot from Byodouin, probably he'll put up a fight and will show what he has up his sleeve).

I don't think Duke can beat Tokugawa with just DH, and I think he can return it. Duke got his No.3 by being Byodouin's servant, there are some players that would defeat him and Tokugawa's one of them.

 

[Ninomiya]

By your "higher rank, better player" logic, Duke > Ryoga >> Tokugawa.

@Ken, you've actually used this before.

 

[-Ken-]

Echizen, as far as we know, didn't use TnK at all in NPoT. Nationals! Yukimura would had raped Echizen just like Tokugawa did. You'd say Nationals! Yukimura > Duke because of that? (of course not btw, he needed an upgrade to defeat No. 11).

The match is skip, so can you really show that Eczhizen doesn't use PoP in that match?

And Tezuka and Kintarou earned PoP since then. And the only player that is confirm to use PoP in next match is Tezuka. I don't see Kintarou PoP power being doubt. Should we doubt Kintarou?

And now that we're on it, let's doubt Niou being able to Syncho with anyone, Taka using 108th Hadokyuu, Momoshiro using BJK, Yukimura getting his upgrade, and every other upgrade that was only used in 1 latest match too.

And if Echizen use his moveable Hyakuren+Saiki, I doubt Yips will even kick in if it's not the upgraded one, so I don't think Echizen need PoP to beat Yukimura.

@Ken, you've actually used this before.

Oh, except Tokugawa is one of the player that stay behind to train to beat Byoudonin. He's one of the player that I stated this logic doesn't work, along with Oni, Irie, and Yamato. So... try again?

Or try to prove in other thread when I bring up this logic that there's something about those players that make them accept lower rank or whatever. Before you ask for those on these 4, I'll start.

1. Oni, damn obvious and stupid if you have to ask. But he take lower position to raise level of All Japan team. Also, sealing Kishin and gaining PoP in the match should raise him up a fair bit too.
2. Irie, same as Oni. It's mention in his match with Akiba.
3. Tokugawa, he stays behind to train to beat Byoudonin, mention in his rallying with Echizen
4. Yamato, GUYU not being known to anyone before.

So, care to bring up on any other characters? I simply use Konomi decision to tier the character by using # and court. It's more unbiased than I like this character and don't really like this character thing that's affect people mind when they're trying to tier a character. Also, it's the closest thing to official tier list we'll ever get from Konomi.

Proof? If you're saying you're more right than Konomi, that's already proof all in itself. All the excuses that it have to be singles/doubles/singles when G10 line up is not the same or finding excuses that #2 and #6 isn't a usual pair when we have nothing from the cannon story that support it yet.

 

[Phantron]

Since PoP turned out to be nothing special after all in NPOT I'd assume that either Ryoma used it and lost anyway, or that he didn't use it and lost because it wouldn't have mattered.

 

[Hardy]

The match is skip, so can you really show that Eczhizen doesn't use PoP in that match?

Can you show me that unicorns don't exist? You should prove that something happenned, not the other way around.

And Tezuka and Kintarou earned PoP since then. And the only player that is confirm to use PoP in next match is Tezuka. I don't see Kintarou PoP power being doubt. Should we doubt Kintarou?

No... why are you even mentioning this?

And now that we're on it, let's doubt Niou being able to Syncho with anyone, Taka using 108th Hadokyuu, Momoshiro using BJK, Yukimura getting his upgrade, and every other upgrade that was only used in 1 latest match too.

Niou can't Synchro with everyone unless Konomi says that... I still don't know why you're naming all this stuff though.

And if Echizen use his moveable Hyakuren+Saiki, I doubt Yips will even kick in if it's not the upgraded one, so I don't think Echizen need PoP to beat Yukimura.

K, this is so wrong man. WTF. Are you saying that Ryoma wasn't getting raped in his match against Yukimura? He was losing 4-0 until he unlocked TnK ffs

Oh, except Tokugawa is one of the player that stay behind to train to beat Byoudonin. He's one of the player that I stated this logic doesn't work, along with Oni, Irie, and Yamato. So... try again?

Or try to prove in other thread when I bring up this logic that there's something about those players that make them accept lower rank or whatever. Before you ask for those on these 4, I'll start.

1. Oni, damn obvious and stupid if you have to ask. But he take lower position to raise level of All Japan team. Also, sealing Kishin and gaining PoP in the match should raise him up a fair bit too.
2. Irie, same as Oni. It's mention in his match with Akiba.
3. Tokugawa, he stays behind to train to beat Byoudonin, mention in his rallying with Echizen
4. Yamato, GUYU not being known to anyone before.

So, care to bring up on any other characters? I simply use Konomi decision to tier the character by using # and court. It's more unbiased than I like this character and don't really like this character thing that's affect people mind when they're trying to tier a character. Also, it's the closest thing to official tier list we'll ever get from Konomi.

Proof? If you're saying you're more right than Konomi, that's already proof all in itself. All the excuses that it have to be singles/doubles/singles when G10 line up is not the same or finding excuses that #2 and #6 isn't a usual pair when we have nothing from the cannon story that support it yet.

You like to write a lot of unrelated stuff, don't you.

Tokuwaga can't return SPOT (at least that's what it seems, because Ryoga had to save his butt) Ryoga can, easily. So, Ryoga >> Tokugawa. I'm not even naming Tokugawa's rank.

Now, Duke is No. 3 and Ryoga No. 4 . WITH YOUR LOGIC, Duke > Ryoga.

Then, Duke > Ryoga >> Tokugawa.

THEN, Duke >>> Tokugawa.

Duke got his No.3 by being Byodouin's servant

Why is everyone assuming that? WTF

If that was the case he would be No. 2, not No.3

 

[-Ken-]

Ah, Ryoga? That's another one. Here's the explanation. They pick him up oversea and fill him the blank space. So his position wouldn't reflect his power. That's actually been go over again and again in 10000 discussion this been through in the past that Ryoga position doesn't reflect his power as well, unless you miss that.

Ryoga freshly earn that position. That's like saying Oishi whom freshly earn his 1st stringer position due to Niou is actually at that level when he have yet play a match to defense it. Ryoga haven't yet shown that he play a match against Duke or Byoudonin from what we knows, and that's why he didn't have higher position.

So yeah, try again. That one didn't work out did it?

Can you show me that unicorns don't exist? You should prove that something happenned, not the other way around.

Sure, then you'll have to be the one that prove to me that Echizen can't use PoP right now, and not the other way around. Because as far as we know, in the last match that he have to use it against Yukimura, he can use it. In match against the magnum serve noob? He doesn't have to use it. Against Tokugawa, that's skip, well.

If you want proof of players retaining move in the National final, here's one. Kaidoh haven't use Gyro Laser in SPoT yet, but his profile in pair puri clearly stated he have it. So, there you go. Your turn to prove stuff.

Here's another one, the players who is say to be closest to obtaining PoP in pair puri doesn't include Ryoma. So if Ryoma can't use it like you foolishly suggested, wouldn't he be closest to obtaining it more than Kintarou and Jirou, especially considering that he had done it before? Would you say any other pair is closer to doing beast syncho than WoK? Or Champion pair is closer to doing syncho than Golden pair?

So, now, try to prove to me why Echizen can't use PoP. Go, go.

No... why are you even mentioning this?

Because you're doubting that Echizen can use PoP althrough he clearly unlock it and kick Yukimura ass with it.

K, this is so wrong man. WTF. Are you saying that Ryoma wasn't getting raped in his match against Yukimura? He was losing 4-0 until he unlocked TnK ffs

This shows that you didn't read at all, do you? He was winning some points with Hyakuren and Saiki until Yips kick in. And due to Yips old explanation in the old PoT, if Echizen is winning in the beginning, Yips shouldn't kick in at all. That would required new yips.

I don't even know why I'm arguing with someone who doesn't seem to read the material he's arguing with.

EDIT: Actually, let's put an end to the stupidity that Echizen can't use PoP. It's in his profile in pair puri. Go download pair puri and look at Echizen. That should put a stop to any further outrageous statement that Echizen can't use the tech.

 

[Kaoz]

@SSS
Please don't confuse the super sweet spot with the aura shot, it's just a prerequisite. I would think No. 1-5 all have SSS.

Proof? If you're saying you're more right than Konomi, that's already proof all in itself. All the excuses that it have to be singles/doubles/singles when G10 line up is not the same or finding excuses that #2 and #6 isn't a usual pair when we have nothing from the cannon story that support it yet.

We have something from the story that supports 2/6 as not being a normal pair. If you think back to the the G10 vs 2nd string HSer scene where they're waiting on the 11-20, the 2nd stringers aren't in the same order as they should be when you're looking at their line-up number (Migihashi is 9, Yamato is 10, despite them being 11 and 10 respectively on the sheet, the HSer that had No. 16 stood in 8th or better). This would imply that everyone is standing opposite of their opponent (the line-ups were arranged the same way in the team shuffle btw).

Now, unless you want to argue that Oni would have paired up with some random guy from 1st court and they for some reason wouldn't have stood next to each other as a pair, he and Tanegashima must have been scheduled to play against each other in singles, which then means that Ohmagari's partner was someone else.

 

[-Ken-]

So, I call for explanation why isn't n11-20 11-14 as singles and 15-16, 17-18, 19-20 as Doubles? It's done for G10, and it correctly show the rank for most of them, except for the one I mention. It's really can just be the same there and no one would care.

 

[Kaoz]

Because Konomi wanted it to look like Irie was losing to No. 20 and it had to be singles (otherwise you could have argued that his partner was pulling Irie down). And because 11-13 as singles, 14-19 as doubles and 20 as singles again would look weird, he decided to have them alternate. How about this one?

 

[-Ken-]

Is there an interview saying that? If yes, I'll step back. If no, I just have to go with the trend we see in the manga with # generally showing more skill in G10 rather than 4th dimension wall breaking explanation.

Of course, with exceptions already mention. I do have to mention that there's player with exception to this rule every time I have a discussion, even if they probably read my post before, don't I?

 

[Kaoz]

I don't know, not all the interviews were translated after all. And why can't 2/6 be an exception too then?

 

[-Ken-]

It just seem to me more of explanation than exception. If it's mention that they're exception somehow like those HS exception, then it'll be fine for me. Instead, there is just a page that they should be playing together, without any mention like it's strange or not usually happen and all that.

I will admit that #6 tech shows that he is a doubles player, though. So if anyone want to convince me that Kimijima and Tohno can beat #6, then maybe that'll be a good chance.

Although, you could say that if Konomi do want to give impression that Irie was losing to #20, #20 have to actually be #20 in his playing skill and not actually #14, as that would be useless. It would just mean #14 beat Irie, not #20. So there's possible counterargument there, too.

 

[Kaoz]

Well, I think you could argue that it's an exception based on the exceptions you already acknowledge. If you're fine with saying Oni > Tanegashima, then that would be the explanation is for why Oni plays singles, right? Following that, in SPoT it's always that people switch positions and you don't just move one down (see the shuffle matches), so as a result, Tanegashima would take the doubles spot No. 5 originally occupied.

 

[-Ken-]

But isn't the old position occupy by Oni? Or in case of Kaji being the ex no 2, I don't think Kaji can beat Duke, but that's certainly a possibility. Not to mention that Tanegashima stay in the camp, too. And there's nothing that suggest that this possible change in position occur, as of yet.

 

[Kaoz]

Oni sealed Kijin though. So if we're talking about Oni as the old No. 5, we're talking about the guy with 10ao and BJK. I think it's very possible that Tanegashima is stronger than that Oni.

Of course there's the chance that Kaji is incredibly awesome, but I don't think it's likely.