Bonus Round Singles - Duke vs Tokugawa

[-Ken-]

I do think Oni with 10 ball at once and BJK is just straight #5, actually. Nothing much to show it, I think Tanegashima and Duke can beat that Oni.

Once Oni bring out Kishin, though, I don't think that chance exist anymore. And once he used PoP, it's gg.

 

[Kaoz]

If that's the case, I believe you can accept my suggestion as a possibility.

 

[Ninomiya]

Oh, except Tokugawa is one of the player that stay behind to train to beat Byoudonin. He's one of the player that I stated this logic doesn't work, along with Oni, Irie, and Yamato. So... try again?

Or try to prove in other thread when I bring up this logic that there's something about those players that make them accept lower rank or whatever. Before you ask for those on these 4, I'll start.

1. Oni, damn obvious and stupid if you have to ask. But he take lower position to raise level of All Japan team. Also, sealing Kishin and gaining PoP in the match should raise him up a fair bit too.
2. Irie, same as Oni. It's mention in his match with Akiba.
3. Tokugawa, he stays behind to train to beat Byoudonin, mention in his rallying with Echizen
4. Yamato, GUYU not being known to anyone before.

Not so interested in your theory If I'm honest. Its all obvious to me. I also see Tokugawa winning here.
I only intervened to make sure you didn't deny that you used such logic.

 

[-Ken-]

Not so interested in your theory If I'm honest. Its all obvious to me. I also see Tokugawa winning here.
I only intervened to make sure you didn't deny that you used such logic.

Doesn't mean that logic is wrong. I did used use that logic, with exception that I rule out.

@Kaoz, regardless of Oni position, I still don't see how it's possible that it's possible for Tanegashima old position to be #5 (As that mean Kaji have to be old #2, for the position swap to occur). Or even if Tanegashima old position is #5, it still doesn't explain why 11-20 position can't be the same way as G10.

 

[Kaoz]

@Kaoz, regardless of Oni position, I still don't see how it's possible that it's possible for Tanegashima old position to be #5 (As that mean Kaji have to be old #2, for the position swap to occur). Or even if Tanegashima old position is #5, it still doesn't explain why 11-20 position can't be the same way as G10.

That's not what I said. I said that because Oni is stronger than Tanegashima he got the right to play singles despite being in a spot that's normally doubles. As a result, Tanegashima takes the spot No. 5 would normally have instead.

 

[-Ken-]

So, is Duke stronger than Tanegashima too? He's playing in singles.

 

[Phantron]

Power players are sort of in their own weird category. They're actualy pretty strong as we know way back even the plain old Hadoball works on Fuji (Kuwamara sacrificed himself because Fuji definitely can't return it), so if you just look at what power techs do they'd pretty much win against anyone who lacks similar power just because they can KO anyone. Of course that's only true up to a certain point. Important characters like Tezuka is never going to get KOed by power and he will never lose to Gin even if he's the number 1 power player for middle schoolers.

Of course Tokugawa is obviously at least in the same tier of importance as Tezuka so he'd also be immune to KO effects from pure power techs. Not to mention he took an aura shot from Byodouin without serious injury (I consider anything without blood to be not serious), so normal power tech isn't going to have a significant effect on him. Note that stuff like the Kishin shot or the aura shot are definitely not just pure power. That is Duke is known as the #1 power player of high schoolers but it's certainly not because he can hit the ball harder than guys who have obtained power from another dimension. I think the 'another dimension' guys simply aren't considered as mere 'power players'.

 

[Kaoz]

So, is Duke stronger than Tanegashima too? He's playing in singles.

I already explained that... remember the shuffles? When someone from 5th court beats someone from 3rd, the 3rd court guy goes down to 5th. He doesn't replace someone from 4th and makes one from 4th go to 5th. Same thing here.

 

[-Ken-]

But Oni doesn't play Tanegashima at any point in the series as far as we know.

And really, once you have to stretch this much over this much post to try to explain something not in the manga rather than going "Oh, so #1 is the strongest and the ranking are based on skill". See that one sentence explanation?. The argument credibility already drop by a fair bit.

 

[Kaoz]

Irrelevant. The whole point is that Oni got the singles spot Tanegashima had before. And instead of everyone moving down one, the two get switched, that's all.

And the argument's credibility drops because you failed to read my posts properly? Good one.

 

[-Ken-]

Hardly irrelevant. There's nothing that suggest that Oni and Tanegashima had a match to switch nor is it mention that #2+#6 is exception or anything like that. There are too many things not explained in the manga. it's a theory that have assumption to try to support assumption that you made. Compare that to straight #=skill level like Konomi have been suggesting (with exceptions on selected players, that had evidences from manga to support those exceptions. If you want to call for page, let me know and I'll dig it up. But I think you remember those page.) and see which one have less assumption. I think you know the answer, but meh.

 

[Hardy]

This shows that you didn't read at all, do you? He was winning some points with Hyakuren and Saiki until Yips kick in. And due to Yips old explanation in the old PoT, if Echizen is winning in the beginning, Yips shouldn't kick in at all. That would required new yips.

...so?

You can't change what already happenned, so either the new explanation that everyone is following is wrong, or Konomi contradicted himself talking about one of the most important characters (and that, would suck). I won't keep talking about this though, it's way offtopic.

About the rest of the things... I disagree with so many that I dunno where to start.

We don't know if Ryoma uses PoP whenever he wants to. In fact, we know that even if you unlocked it before, if you don't "really have fun" you won't use it again. It's not like any other Muga door. At least, that was what Nanjiroh said (and when Fuji talks about Oni's TnK, he says the same http://www.mangareader.net/new-prince-of-tennis/99/14 ). If it had been used (as it's such an important Aura in the PoT world) it would had been mentioned. Gyro, and every single thing you named after that are just normal techs... why would he forget how to give a spin with his arm? It isn't the same as an Aura, at all.

The fact that the PPs give Ryoma TnK doesn't mean anything. The PPs give Kirihara Muga! but we haven't seen him use it since Kanto.

Now, back to topic, you're being unfair to Duke. He's the freaking No.3 . You're saying that Irie, Tokugawa, Oni, Ryoga, Yamato and Marui are clear exceptions to the rank = power rule (I believe that 6 exceptions are enough to say that a rule is wrong, but wtv)... but that doesn't mean that Duke is another exception. You like it or not, he's 1 rank above a guy that can hit the Aura shot (thank you Kaoz), the same shot that could have killed Tokugawa. Is it to hard to assume that Duke can return the Aura shot? If he is able to, then he's clearly better than Tokugawa.

Also, come on man, "foolishly"? "stupidity"? "I don't know why I'm arguing..."? Chill, we're discussing a manga, don't take it personal

 

[Kaoz]

^The Yips requirement is probably still the same as the one Kintarou gave. Konomi didn't give us an update on it and I don't think he'd create a contradiction like that (that said I do have an updated theory on the actual upgrade, gonna post that at some point).

Hardly irrelevant. There's nothing that suggest that Oni and Tanegashima had a match to switch nor is it mention that #2+#6 is exception or anything like that.

But there is. Both Oni and Tanegashima are standing in the second spot here. From the team shuffle, we can see that the respective opponents are facing each other during a line-up like this (it's a bit hard to see, but I zoomed in to confirm it), and also that doubles partners are standing next to each other.

That leaves us with three possibilities:
1. Byoudouin/Tanegashima as doubles
2. Tanegashima/Duke as doubles
3. Tanegashima as singles

Personally, I think the third one is by far the most likely one simply by process of elimination. Regardless of which of the three is true though, it makes 2/6 into a makeshift pair.

Anyway, I've said everything I've had to say on the issue. End of discussion from my side.

 

[Hardy]

Both Oni and Tanegashima are standing in the second spot here.

I've been looking at every page in that chapter, and zoomed it still looks more like Kaji rather than Tanegashima.

In fact if you look at this one

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/5523...prince_of_tennis_ch_065.003.jpg?v=11322456923

There's a guy with Tanegashima's cocky stance in the 5th place.

---------- Post added at 03:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

Nah, wait, in the same image I posted the 2nd guy looks as tall as Byoudouin, and in this one http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110820135110/princeoftennis/images/f/f3/1st_Stringers.jpg Kaji looks kinda short... meh, screw it.

 

[-Ken-]

In the picture Hardy presented, it does look more like Kaji. There's no tan. But Kaji should indeed be shorter. But who knows, wouldn't be the first time mangaka make a mistake with character height. Also, it's not like Konomi never make drawing mistake before (one that just come to mind is curved laser path. you just don't know.).

Also, if I'm being unfair to Duke, you're being pretty unfair to Tokugawa. Did you think he'll just get stomp by Byoudonin now?

And those exceptions are exception because they have something, as in actual pages, in the manga to support it. That's all.

 

[Kaoz]

You can see it extremely clearly here. I should've presented this one instead, sorry about that: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v04/c060/3.html

 

[Ninomiya]

You can see it extremely clearly here. I should've presented this one instead, sorry about that: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v04/c060/3.html

Damn Konomi. Why do you have to draw the two guys beside Oni with such notable and unique detail.

 

[Hardy]

Also, if I'm being unfair to Duke, you're being pretty unfair to Tokugawa. Did you think he'll just get stomp by Byoudonin now?

Unless he gets an upgrade, yes. I'm not being unfair, it has been shown in the manga that Tokugawa can't deal with a shot that 2 of the top 6 players easily hit (and I'm sure that the other 4 are able to return it without much effort, Duke is one of them). There's nothing, absolutely nothing, that says that Tokugawa would have a chance against Duke.

Damn Konomi. Why do you have to draw the two guys beside Oni with such notable and unique detail.

They kinda look like Kentarou and Akutsu lol

I'll guess we'll get more info about the fodder Hs (or the ones that we never saw) some day.

 

[-Ken-]

Unless he gets an upgrade, yes. I'm not being unfair, it has been shown in the manga that Tokugawa can't deal with a shot that 2 of the top 6 players easily hit (and I'm sure that the other 4 are able to return it without much effort, Duke is one of them). There's nothing, absolutely nothing, that says that Tokugawa would have a chance against Duke.

And it's also been shown that Tokugawa beat Echizen who is #1 MS who beat Yukimura. What's your point?

Hey, Tokugawa match against Byoudonin is probably coming up soon. And I guess we'll see who's estimation is closer then.

 

[Ninomiya]

Unless he gets an upgrade, yes. I'm not being unfair, it has been shown in the manga that Tokugawa can't deal with a shot that 2 of the top 6 players easily hit (and I'm sure that the other 4 are able to return it without much effort, Duke is one of them). There's nothing, absolutely nothing, that says that Tokugawa would have a chance against Duke.

When you say Tokugawa doesn't stand a chance, that seems a little strong. No, its very strong.
Tokugawa doesn't seem retarded if I'm honest.
Tokugawa has seen all of these G10 matches and he still hasn't chickened out like a little bitch so he clearly believes his chances aren't so bad for a good reason.
Well, he hasn't given the impression he's retarded.