Discussion Some High Rankers when they were regulars

[hblock]

How strong do you think the following High Rankers were when they they just reached the 133rd floor as regulars :
-Yuri
-Maschenny
-Kallavan
-Yamah
-Doom
-Paul
-Yasratcha
-Karaka
-Adori

Assuming entry Ranker level is 100 in power.

IMO :
-Yuri : 50
Current age : several centuries (more than 500 y/o)
She's considered the most talented in the Ha family, implying that she may surpass the Ha twins one day. Despite being a regular, It's possible that she was entry Ranker level already giving her potrayal. Especially when we know that Adori quite easily defeated an advanced Ranker in her regular days. I mean, Adori may be ranked 7, but I doubt the N°1 of one of the top families like the Ha would be as much as a cannon fodder material in comparison.
That being said she needed 100 years to become a HR ever since becoming a Ranker, so I'd argue that she was still beneath entry Ranker level.

-Maschenny : 100
Current age : several millennia
more or less the same reasons as Yuri although she wasn't explicitly noted to be the most talented. However, unlike Yuri she already seemed to have unlocked most if not all "sudden PU type" moments when she cleared the HT. She could already use the Maschenny style spears as well as Redan. All what awaited for her since then was mostly a linear growth in all stats.
In other hands, it's not sure whether Yuri already discovered Rose Shower (easily her most powerful attack shown so far) or not.

-Kallavan : 22
Current age : several millennia (3000+ y/o)
Current Kallavan is very strong, low top 100 level most likely despite being this young. It's not far fetched to say that Mas' is probably 2 times older than him currenly, however, part or should I say most of his power seems stagnant (EoB). Only himself can still grow and build more power, so his potential is most likely beneath that of Yuri/Mas'.
Furtheremore, he didn't have EoB as a regular and without it, I don't see him being even remotely close to top 100 currently, arguably beneath top 300 paygrade giving his age. He's still very talented regardless, a diamond in the rough even with his basic combat abilities as noted by Jinsung, but he'd require him much more time to become comparable to top 300 and arguably top 100.
Overall, he should've been far weaker than Maschenny as a regular on the same floor giving the lack of EoB.

-Yamah : 4
Current age : several millennia, maybe several tens of millennia (he could use FT since the middle ages of the tower)
Transformation level seems to depend on one's strength to a certain extent. Paul had trouble controlling his own because it was too powerful and it was also implied that half transfomration would take a toll on Doom's body as he is currently. Based on these facts, it's very unlikely that Yamah (or Doom) already unlocked some advanced level of partial transformation when they were regulars.
Furtheremore, Yamah seems to be notably older than current Mas'. I mean, he could already use FT in the medieval era of the tower (when Doom was a top 200 HR), which means he's extremely old despite being a 2nd generation slayer. Folks like Kallavan or Mas' are most likely way younger than him despite being themselves far (several times) older than the likes of Yuri or Karaka.

-Doom : 5
Current age : several millennia, maybe several tens of millennia (he reached his prime in the middle ages of the tower but was defeated by Yamah)
The same as Yamah, he was probably the strongest out of the bunch when they were kids but Yamah reached and then surpassed him as a HR due to his harsh training.

-Paul : 1.5
Current age : several millennia, maybe several tens of millennia (arround his borthers age)
Transformation was deemed too dangerous, so he almost never used it after the very first usage in which he almost lost his life.
Despite being arround the same age as Yamah and Doom, he didn't seem to be above division commander level in his basic form.

-Yasratcha : 40
Current age : several millennia, maybe several tens of millennia (older than the Baylord bros)
Cats seem to perform tranformation far more easier than dogs, even a DivCom like Haratcha had no trouble applying full mimesis to his whole body while some insanely strong canines like Doom can't even unleash it, and Yas' is by far the strongest/most skilled shown feline so far. So, there's a high chance that he could already perform full transforamtion in his regular days. If that's really the case, then he'd have already achieved most if not all of his PU-type moments before becoming a Ranker. Otherwise, he'd have scored lesser than that.

-Karaka : 40
Current age : several centuries
Currently, he can compete with Yuri to some extent and force her to use her strongest skill to beat him in one shot. As a regular however, Yuri didn't have RS (probably) nor her ignition weapons meanwhile Karaka didn't have his spell-clad special armor that he god from Jinsung.
If we remove both, then the gap was probably closer than their current versions. I bet that Karaka already had his WoD bangs (his signature ability) + he already wore an armor although not as good as Jinsung's gift. Othewrise, his score would've been lower.

-Adori : 800
Current age : several millennia (5000+ y/o according to her very old/obsolete character profile)
If she quite easily defeated an advanced Ranker, then she was at least close to entry HR level.

 

[sazon]

I find this something very difficult to talk about, even to speculate, we are still in the dark about the process of becoming Ranker and why someone who passed the test on the 134th floor is so much more powerful than someone on the 133rd for example.

We know that Adori was already able to defeat a ranker even as a regular, but well, princesses are already capable of being physically more powerful than a normal ranker, so it's not that surprising for us.

And the strength of a regular depends a lot on how your climb was, assuming that Maschenny recorded his data after training with Eduan (which many people believe), would she be that strong if she hadn't gotten on the train? What about Yuri who didn't even get on the train?

You can have another example the friends of Baam, Koon AA and the others are geniuses and true elites in the tower, I doubt very much that they will not become HR in the future, however, the fact that they train with HR and learn their Shinsoo qualities, beyond of the items they eventually get, makes this development faster.

And about Adori, it's very likely that she became a High-ranker as soon as she completed the climb. Charlie was considered an elite ranker only because he never failed a test until becoming a b-rank regular. Being Adori, someone who beat a high-level ranker while still being regular, she's definitely already qualified as HR.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hard to say. Wouldn't someone who was stronger as a Regular normally get stronger than the ones below him as a Ranker? I guess it's not that simple.

I won't use numbers, but Zahard Princesses are said to reach Ranker level before becoming official Rankers IIRC so I think all the Princesses were Ranker tier. Yama should have been Ranker tier as well, same for Yasratcha, probably Karaka. Kallavan? Maybe. I don't think the others were at this level.

Ranker tier: Adori>>> Maschenny> Yasratcha> Yama> Karaka> Yuri.

Maybe: Doom> Kallavan.

Not Ranker tier: Paul.

But they probably all were that strong. There are so many tiers even for Rankers in this series.

 

[hblock]

We know that Adori was already able to defeat a ranker even as a regular, but well, princesses are already capable of being physically more powerful than a normal ranker, so it's not that surprising for us.

but Zahard Princesses are said to reach Ranker level before becoming official Rankers IIRC

Regular princesses are said to surpass Rankers in raw physical ability alone (without shinsu strengthening); not overall. Among the regulars, SIU already noted that Baam is the only one who can pretend to defeat them currently and the immense gap between Ranker and regulars was highlighted many times since the last station arc.
Also, Adori defeating a Ranker as an A-rank regular was considered an otherwordly feat that no one acheived so far, implying that most princesses are nowhere near Ranker level until they become Rankers themselves.

Yama should have been Ranker tier as well, same for Yasratcha, probably Karaka. Kallavan? Maybe. I don't think the others were at this level.

I highly doubt it, CC potentiality are mostly way beneath Ranker level until they become Rankers themselves, the real question is how close they were to the weakest Ranker in existence when they reached the second top floor as regulars.

 

[Demonspeed]

Adori is the only one who defeated a Ranker as A-rank Regular, but it doesn't mean she was the only one who could. Enne didn't, but we know she could since they are said to be on par. It's hard to gauge exactly what is Ranker level.

Plus I think if a Princess can surpass Rankers in physical ability it shouldn't be that hard for her to defeat some Rankers as long as they are not too lacking in the other areas. Especially since most of them are Fishermen.

What do you mean by CC?

 

[hblock]

Plus I think if a Princess can surpass Rankers in physical ability it shouldn't be that hard for her to defeat some Rankers as long as they are not too lacking in the other areas. Especially since most of them are Fishermen.

Raw Physical ability =/= physical ability + Shinsu strengthening.
Actually, a Ranker would effortlessly wreck a regular princess in a brawl if he applies shinsu strengthening to his body. Princesses are also too lacking in other areas as you said (compared to Rankers ofc).

What do you mean by CC?

Corps commander

I also copy/pasted a part of one of @Shadowlord123 essays which perfectly illustrates what I think :

Spoiler

Part I – How Top 100 potentiality compared to Rankers when they were Regulars?

Obviously, we don’t really have a definite answer to this question, however, given some info, I think we can infer some things:

“The times may have changed, but there’s no way that a Regular could ever beat a Ranker” – Baylord Doom; Season 3 Chapter 22.

“Ugh! Are you insane? Making a rugrat fight a Ranker? He’s practically throwing the game before it even starts” – Baylord Paul; Season 3 Chapter 22.

“Of course, for Regulars, Rankers are a big challenge and a mountain to climb” – SIU, Season 3, Chapter 42 Blogpost

“Still, from the eyes of Regulars like Baam, Rankers can seem like absolute beings” – Season 2 Chapter 327, SIU Blogpost.

“Being able to attack and defend against Rankers properly is a sign that Team RaKhunBaam is becoming stronger as a whole. Of course, except for Baam there aren't any Regulars that can face off against a Ranker directly, but Rak and Khun both have abilities not often seen by Rankers. I hope this battle shows that they can be significant variables now” – SIU, Season 3 Chapter 43 Blogpost.

“This week, we have the fight between Baam and the Test Ranker ending. We had a lot of Rankers being shown lately so you may not feel the full impact, but it is huge in the Tower of God world that a Regular beat a Ranker. The moment that happens, you are essentially proving that you are of another world” – SIU, Season 3 Chapter 51 Blogpost.

Even the Rankers from Zahard's Army were at utter disbelief by Baam going neck to neck with Charlie:

"Is that guy really a Regular? He's holding his own against a Ranker" - Unnamed Rankers, Season 3 Chapter 52.

The words “ever” and “any” from the first and second to last statements respectively imply that no Regular reaches Ranker Level during the climb. That should include until proven otherwise any kind of Regular going from F to A-Rank (which is the highest known rank a Regular can get). Doom knows of guys like Yama and Yasratcha who most likely have Top 100 potentiality. In Doom’s head, the gap between Yasratcha and him is huge, very huge. The fact that Doom told his brothers that if they ever saw Yasratcha, they should run away and that if they faced him, they’d be dead meat proves this notion. Yet despite this huge difference, Doom doesn’t even dare thinking that guys of that level would have been on the level of the weakest Rankers. Given the way he says it, it’s very doubtful Top 100 potentiality were pretty close to that level.

SIU also says it, that besides Baam, there are no Regulars that can face-off against a Ranker directly. One could argue he’s only talking about currently. Maybe there aren’t any Top 100 High Ranker potentiality currently among the Regulars that are climbing, but even if that’s the case Doom’s statement seems pretty clear that Top 100 High Rankers shouldn’t have been on the level of the weakest Ranker when they were Regulars.

Obviously, we also have to take into account that Doom just doesn’t know everything. In his eyes, it’s impossible for any Regular to beat a Ranker in a fight. However, we know this line of thinking is wrong at the moment we get to know that Adori beat one.

“You know, officially speaking, only one Regular has ever defeated a Ranker before. Princess Adori Zahard, the current supreme commander of Zahard’s forces. But that was only after she was already an A-Rank Regular” – Khun AA, Season 3, Chapter 50.

“Even before she became a ranker, she defeated an upper-level ranker (note: the kanji here appears to be the same as Advanced Ranker) quite easily, and even Garam Jahad was overwhelmingly pushed to her limits before her. (Before the Anne Jahad incident, Garam and Adori fought once. It hadn’t been 100 years since Adori became a ranker, yet she was able to overwhelm Garam.) – Adori’s profile information.

That alone already puts limits to Doom’s statement. Regulars like Adori (currently ranked #7 for her unfathomable strength according to SIU) were already stronger than some Rankers as Regulars, and if SIU hasn’t retconned what he said years ago in his blogpost, it would imply that Adori was a lot stronger than low-level Rankers as an A-Rank Regular.

I also want to add that it isn’t a sure thing at all that Top Zahard Princesses like Yuri (who has been stated to be the most talented person of the Ha Family bar Yurin) or Maschenny reached that level as Regulars either.

Here’s what Maschenny said when Yasratcha asked loudly what exactly was so special about that Irregular (Baam).

“Don’t you know? He managed to get past Squadron number 4 and escape from the Last Station. And just recently, he officially beat a Ranker as a Regular” – Khun Maschenny Zahard; Season 3 Chapter 52.

Maschenny seems to think that Baam beating a Ranker as a Regular is something that makes him very special. Given how only Adori is the only recorded case to do it officially (for a Regular) and it was noted that this was only when she was an A-Rank, there’s plenty of room to think that the likes of Yuri and Maschenny weren’t on that level yet. After all, why would you said something like this if Top 100 potentiality or more could all defeat a Ranker as a Regular? It would contradict everything we know thus far. SIU also said this in the same chapter Baam beat Pan after a hard fight:

All in all, it comes to sense given the evidence presented that the likes of Yasratcha (who are most likely Top 100) and relative characters to him in power never reached the level of a Ranker during the climb, and given the way it was said, it’s doubtful that they were close.

 

[Shadowlord123]

The only Regulars to whom I would personally give the benefit of the doubt to have reached the low-level Ranker spectrum or above would be the absolute number 1 DDs/members of each Great Families (I reckon the current Top 20/35 more or less and in my headcanon), Maschenny/Yuri/Hagi (which IMO, they're meant to represent the Regular peak of their respective family if they live for tens of thousands of years, even if it's only confirmed in Yuri's case) and the Regulars in the Top 20 (obviously, the Irregulars too but I'm not taking them into account). There might be some Blue Hole or Native One that is unranked but besides them, I don't feel like there are going to be many High Rankers who reached that level as Regulars.

SIU has put a lot of emphasis on it. If there were too many High Rankers that could have defeated even a low-level Ranker as Regulars, I feel like it would be contradictory given the narrative that has been presented to us thus far. It's supposed to be unbelievable that Adori did it and we all know how good Adori is.

Assuming she defeated an Advanced one quite easily like the blogpost seems to imply, and considering how the word "officially" was mentioned, that gives SIU some room to give a similar (but weaker) feat to some other High Rankers. I don't think the likes of Yas, Jinsung, Kallavan and characters of comparable feats or portrayal make the cut though.

 

[Demonspeed]

Raw Physical ability =/= physical ability + Shinsu strengthening.
Actually, a Ranker would effortlessly wreck a regular princess in a brawl if he applies shinsu strengthening to his body. Princesses are also too lacking in other areas as you said (compared to Rankers ofc).

But how can we know if they are that lacking? Plus Princesses are picked for their talents in the first place, they generally have more than physical ability, Yuri who is a Ha, is even more of a physical beast.

There is also the matter a matchup. Would a Regular Fisherman Princess who is close to becoming a Ranker lose to a new Ranker who is a highly specialized Light Bearer for example? Or a Support Scout like Leesoo?

With all the super strong characters appearing lately, my perception of Rankers was affectted, and there is the fact that SIU rarely introduces characters who are actually average in all areas or weak (guess it also makes sense since the weaker die but still).

SIU needs to reveal what is the bare minimum for a Ranker. He said before that High Rankers can usually create 30-50 Baangs for example but things are vague for Rankers.

 

[hblock]

SIU needs to reveal what is the bare minimum for a Ranker. He said before that High Rankers can usually create 30-50 Baangs for example but things are vague for Rankers.

We saw Baam controlling at least 13 bangs even before unleashing True self mode (in his fight against Data Jahad). This same Baam was noted to be <<<< a Ranker in terms of skill and experience. This alone says a lot about the minimum level for Rankers, whether they're specialized in battle or not.

As for Jahad princesses and more generally any individual with a lot of potential, talent doesn't imply being stronger than other folks with less potential who lived far longer, trained for a much longer time on top of having much more experience.
SIU still didn't explicitly explained why there is so much of a gap between regulars and Rankers but he once said that the main difference resides in the contracts they make with the admins. He also said that Rankers can use shinsu almost without restrictions. Based on these facts, it's not far fetched to assume that the system is just set so that regulars would never be able to beat Rankers no matter how talented they're. Obviously, we can find several exceptions (like Adori or Enne, arguably the N°1 of each GF other than the FH himself, etc) but it's pretty clear that most Jahad princesses and folks with equal or more potential like FUG slayers or some the luckiest ones in terms of genetical lottery don't make the cut until they become Rankers themselves.

I'll also add that Yuri needed 100 years to become a HR once she became a Ranker. So, time/aging is far from being a small factor as well.

 

[Kiibou]

Honestly, with how the average nameless rankers are portrayed recently it makes me question this myth itself. I don’t know whether it is truly as impressice as it was before when rankers are still hyped to be unfathamable monsters but now they drop like flies every chapter with barely any skills even when they fought.

 

[hblock]

they drop like flies every chapter with barely any skills even when they fought.

Wasn't that expected ? I mean (average) Rankers were always portrayed as cannon fodder material in front of HRs. Nothing new, really.

 

[Demonspeed]

What is the top rank for a Regular anyway? Is it A? Or S?

 

[Shadowlord123]

What is the top rank for a Regular anyway? Is it A? Or S?

As far as we know, the top rank is A-Rank.

 

[Kiibou]

Wasn't that expected ? I mean (average) Rankers were always portrayed as cannon fodder material in front of HRs. Nothing new, really.

even rankers that fought in front of regulars were nothing special. E.g. charlie and that dude from the Dowon sealed area etc. They were quite pathetic and nothing that surpasses what I'd imagined for F133 Khun, Rak, Ran, Endorsi, Hatsu etc.

 

[Demonspeed]

As far as we know, the top rank is A-Rank.

Since we know that Hon as a S+ Rank weapon I think we should expect a S rank for Regulars. Would make Adori beating Rankers as a A rank more impressive and like this maybe S Rank Regulars beating new Rankers would be easier to imagine.

even rankers that fought in front of regulars were nothing special. E.g. charlie and that dude from the Dowon sealed area etc. They were quite pathetic and nothing that surpasses what I'd imagined for F133 Khun, Rak, Ran, Endorsi, Hatsu etc.

I don't really agree with that. Charlie was along with High Rankers so of course he wasn't that impressive in front of them. But against Regulars he had no issues AFAIR(besides Baam of course). Delete didn't impress me however.

I wonder if Charlie is really to be considered a elite Ranker of if it was supposed to be a joke.

 

[hblock]

even rankers that fought in front of regulars were nothing special. E.g. charlie and that dude from the Dowon sealed area etc. They were quite pathetic and nothing that surpasses what I'd imagined for F133 Khun, Rak, Ran, Endorsi, Hatsu etc.

I agree that Charlie or Daleet aren't especially charismatic nor their looks were overwhelming but that's not a reason to assume that they should be weaker than a regular (no matter which floor he belongs to).
Similarly, if the skills used by them weren't "visually" impressive (and that remains very subjective), that's not even remotely enough as a fact. I mean the fight between White and Kall' in Dowon's wall, a supposedly HR level battle, didn't look any better than the Baam/Hoaqin fight in the daller show in terms of scale and visual effects, we just know it stands on a whole another level. So, what did you expect from average Ranker level fights at this point.
Frankly speaking, it makes sens, currently we're seing CC level fights (White vs Kallavan, Yas' vs Yamah, etc); if SIU really bothered to draw everything in its right scale and metrics, just HR level fights alone would've been almost impossible to illustrate, let alone super HR tier.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Since we know that Hon as a S+ Rank weapon I think we should expect a S rank for Regulars. Would make Adori beating Rankers as a A rank more impressive and like this maybe S Rank Regulars beating new Rankers would be easier to imagine.

I guess it's plausible that an S-Rank for Regulars exists. However, it's still extremely unlikely that any Regular can beat a Ranker IMO. SIU has made that very clear when he says only Baam can face Rankers as a Regular currently and when he makes characters like Doom (a Top 200 HR in his prime) say that there's no way a Regular could ever beat a Ranker. There are a lot more statements that support this, but I'm too lazy to copy and paste them here

This is not to say that there possibly can't be exceptions to the rule. We know Adori did it (not taking into account the Irregulars). If her old profile still holds true, she defeated an Advanced Ranker quite easily as an A-Rank Regular, but that's it. She's the only one to officially do it. Ranked #7 for her unfathomable strength.

I expect the number of Regulars that could have defeated a Ranker as a Regular to be more than just Adori. There's some room for SIU to make it. Still, I don't expect it to be a common feat in the slightest, more like a feat of heretical talent that can only be replicated by very few High Ranker potentials (IMO, the HRs we've seen thus far like Jinsung, Kallavan, Yasratcha don't fall in this category).

I wonder if Charlie is really to be considered a elite Ranker of if it was supposed to be a joke.

I think it was real. In the blogpost of Season 3 Chapter 52, SIU said this:

Baam arrives at the battlefield, and we see a familiar face. Mr. Charlie, not sure if you know him (...) back at the Last Station, people kept calling him by his job title, so people may not remember his name (Well, there weren't exactly any flags set for his return). This guy is actually a quite elite Ranker compared to the Test Ranker. He's like a guy that passes the Civil Service exam in his 20's. It's hard for me to say because I don't know too much about how the Civil Service Exam works and the Tower is much larger than Korea, so a 1 to 1 comparison is not really feasible. There are so many rankers across multiple fields, there's a lot of gaps in the myriad of skills between them.

Anyway, Elite Ranker Charlie vs Baam. Despite being against a Ranker, he fends him off expertly, which surprises the military. It's like seeing a kid genius from a TV show. It's scary to see such unbelievable talent. Hwaryeon's great at making Baam's image in that regard".

 

[Vitala]

Hard to say. Wouldn't someone who was stronger as a Regular normally get stronger than the ones below him as a Ranker? I guess it's not that simple.

I won't use numbers, but Zahard Princesses are said to reach Ranker level before becoming official Rankers IIRC so I think all the Princesses were Ranker tier. Yama should have been Ranker tier as well, same for Yasratcha, probably Karaka. Kallavan? Maybe. I don't think the others were at this level.

Ranker tier: Adori>>> Maschenny> Yasratcha> Yama> Karaka> Yuri.

Maybe: Doom> Kallavan.

Not Ranker tier: Paul.

But they probably all were that strong. There are so many tiers even for Rankers in this series.

How is karaka superior to yuri ?

 

[Wha]

How is karaka superior to yuri ?

I think he is referring to Yuri's statement when they first fought each other. She thought something like "if he is allowed to grow, he will become my biggest thread" (or something along those lines). Which can be interpreted to - he has more talent (why else should he catch up in the future?)
You also have Jinsung complimenting Karaka on his fast growth (when he visited him after the workshop).

But not sure if this is stil accurate, Siu seems to like changing this kind of things along the way (as of now).

 

[kkck]

Karaka is definitely not superior to yuri. Saying karaka is vastly inferior to yuri is still an overestimation of his strength. Karaka literally threw everything he had at yuri. Heck, he threw at yuri more than he had since the attack absorbed yuri's own attacks.. And even then yuri barely felt it. Yuri is probably not yet at the slayer or corp commander level but she is definitely closer to that than she is to karaka.