Discussion Strongest DF

[Avid]

I've already accounted for that, which is why I list potential as a factor. Mr. 5's Bomb-Bomb Fruit was one of the reasons why I noted the factor even, so I'm glad you mention it. I would argue that until we know what decides the proportions of the explosions that we can't say, but it being so dependent on the body itself I would argue that it most likely cannot create explosions of that caliber. However, if you were to argue that it could most likely create a number of explosions that accomplish that I wouldn't disagree.

To say Garp would do that would assume he would apply his Haki to it, but that doesn't change the nature of her ability. Its invasive and tricky natures are a big part of its ability, but its ability to compound actions and sensory alone make it a 3 star. I haven't decided what I consider it yet, but I doubt it will go beyond 3 star.

Logias are tricky. Being the most consistently powerful category and having such varieties of how people use them make them difficult, but the fact that there is definitely an elemental hierarchy to them as Akainu stated has made it easier to measure. I don't make any grading without a lot of consideration. I think the role that element plays in nature speaks a lot for it when measuring it. Being an Iceman definitely ranks at either 4 or 5 stars. He is essentially cold itself personified.

 

[Ninomiya]

I think the concept of the Suna Suna no Mi of Crocodile is rather beast.
If you think you can die of thirst if he gets you for long enough.
Without liquid he could kick your ass.
In theory he could kill almost anybody who is Haki-less.
Its still slightly crazy how Luffy won.

 

[Avid]

I love considering how each Logia user applies themselves and imagining what it would be like if they emulated another Logia's style or how that ability could grow. I can only imagine what it feels like to be a Logia.

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

It´s quite hard to actually determine the strongest DF because fights and thus also the DFs have several components. WB´s Gura Gura is and probably will be the most destructive fruit we will see in OP but defensively speaking it is not the best fruit. Magellan´s DF is probably the most deadly but he lacks in every other department. Kizaru´s fruit probably makes him the fastest, unless Kuma is actually faster, but it also lacks in certain sections. That´s why i actually like Avid´s grading system because you can assess a fruit´s strengths and weaknesses and judge them based on that.

 

[Ninomiya]

I love considering how each Logia user applies themselves and imagining what it would be like if they emulated another Logia's style or how that ability could grow. I can only imagine what it feels like to be a Logia.

Not just Logia, but every single DF user.
I'd mentioned this before but how a DF user applies themselves is how we perceive each fruit to be the strongest.
If Luffy didn't have the Gomu Gomu no Mi but some Marine with only the rank of Captain had it instead, we would probably think of it as a very very weak fruit.
Since he probably wouldn't use it to change his insides and access Gear 2nd.

Same with Chopper and Lucci who unlike most Zoan users who can only go Half Zoan and Full Zoan and back to human, Lucci and Chopper have various Zoan modes they can access according to their situation.

 

[Avid]

Although I enjoy my grading system, it's easy to argue that there's a lot of potential to each that we're not seeing, thus making it near impossible to appropriately grade any of them. My grading system has so much work to be had, but I think I have the right factors in mind for getting the best impression that I can. I've made revisions since that post though.

You act like I said only Logias. xD I'm fascinated by all of them. Why do you think I have the need to make a grading system? I'm so fascinated I can't help but conceive an organized measuring system. I've always thought that one of Oda's principles when making them was that the creativity of the user was truly a factor, but Logias are the most fascinating to put myself in. They create a duality to your very physical being, and that's just so neat to imagine experiencing. Oda has had a big influence on my own creative principles.

 

[MBVC]

Strongest DF? Well in my opinion the strongest one is Yami Yami no Mi - darkness. 99,9% of universe is made from darkness, so if you have this power, you can simply control almost the whole universe. Of course this is not how DF is supposed to be, but think about it in this way.

In 1v1 case, propably Marco's DF is the best, because he can regenerate himself as long as he want/can.

If Doflamingo's DF is to control someone, than he has one big weakness - speed. Vergo already demonstrated in fight with Law that if you are fast enough, you can just simply dodge before DF user attack you and overwhelm him.

That's dark energy which is anti-gravity, it's the opposite of gravity in a certain meaning besides the light logica. The strongest df is buried deep inside SF if you know where to look, even blackhole can be destroyed hence BB's df isn't as powerful as you think. This gravity-darkness logica only ranks 3rd on the list, the 2nd one is simply madness and I wish it won't be introduced ever in OP.

 

[kkck]

Well, marco can regenerate and that is indeed better than intangibility considering that haki easily deals with that however in turn the fruit does not have a couple of things. Marco can fly but it does not seem like the fruits gives the user a traditional hybrid form so to speak. Without that he is missing on the most obvious advantages being a zoan implies.

As for BB's darkness, I would think it is a strong candidate although we have yet to see its full destructive capacity. My first impression is that it is not quite as powerful as other logias have shown overall when it comes to offense. It negates abilities as a whole however it does have some pretty strong weak points. Being something that sucks things in BB can't undo his body like other logias and he implied he did take more damage from attacks that others when he fought ace. BB can suck anyone in but that in itself also poses a risk to him as WB showed us.

How about the pika pika no mi? What an be better than light? Insane speed, lasers.... Perhaps it might be too straight forward though. In all honesty it does seem like this fruit is superior to the ice or magma fruit IMO. Kizaru can even make a sword out of it. Perhaps kizaru would be a tad weak when it comes to huge attacks though. His lasers have never shown to be as huge as attacks from kizary or aokiji so to speak.

 

[Ninomiya]

Well, marco can regenerate and that is indeed better than intangibility considering that haki easily deals with that however in turn the fruit does not have a couple of things. Marco can fly but it does not seem like the fruits gives the user a traditional hybrid form so to speak. Without that he is missing on the most obvious advantages being a zoan implies.

He doesn't need one, he can become a Phoenix in different stages.
There are moments where he wasn't entirely in Full-Zoan mode so Marco isn't disadvantaged at all.

Even Sengoku can go buddha but instead of becoming a giant statue he is able to keep his human size.

The Mythical Zoan so far haven't shown the ability to have a standard Hybrid-Form but they are able to use forms between Full-Zoan and Normal much more freely than Zoan's.

For me, Mythical Zoan's are on equal footing with Logia's now that Haki has had a massive increase in relevance.

I want to see some Ancient Zoan's now though. Other than X Drake's T-Rex fruit.

 

[MBVC]

You can find some good candidates from Yugioh or Pokemon I guess, a df with ESP power similar to Mew & Mew2 is a good one, those monsters from the god cards are powerful too, maybe Kaidou is one of those

 

[Ninomiya]

Yeah I agree, I think Oda could do a lot more with the Mythical Zoan's, and he should hurry up with it.
The gap between Luffy and Akainu is getting smaller and smaller and I imagine once Luffy reaches a strength where he can take out Akainu level characters, it might be too late to reveal characters with ablities even stronger than that.

 

[kkck]

He doesn't need one, he can become a Phoenix in different stages.
There are moments where he wasn't entirely in Full-Zoan mode so Marco isn't disadvantaged at all.

Even Sengoku can go buddha but instead of becoming a giant statue he is able to keep his human size.

The Mythical Zoan so far haven't shown the ability to have a standard Hybrid-Form but they are able to use forms between Full-Zoan and Normal much more freely than Zoan's.

For me, Mythical Zoan's are on equal footing with Logia's now that Haki has had a massive increase in relevance.

I want to see some Ancient Zoan's now though. Other than X Drake's T-Rex fruit.

Marco can use partial transformations however is that quite the same as an hybrid form? Perhaps oda intended to balance things out in the end. He does not give mythological zoans an standard hybrid form but in turn makes up for it with the magical abilities they get from their animal. Perhaps a standard hybrid form would be too hax here.

Well, logia are not overall that much different from other fruits once haki is considered. They can be damaged just the same in the end. Being a logia would be convenient in other areas once haki is accounted for. Not having a definite shape can help in battle or be a massive disadvantage and the greatest advantage would be the creation of great amounts of one element. When it comes to damage taking there would definitely be more convenient abilities considering haki would not hamper them in the list. Marco will regenerate no matter how much haki there is in an attack and buggy is definitely still immune to any sort of haki cut.

 

[Ninomiya]

Marco can use partial transformations however is that quite the same as an hybrid form? Perhaps oda intended to balance things out in the end. He does not give mythological zoans an standard hybrid form but in turn makes up for it with the magical abilities they get from their animal. Perhaps a standard hybrid form would be too hax here.

I just said in my post he doesn't need one. Oda wouldn't give Sengoku and Marco Hybrid forms since just like you said, it will obviously be a total hax situation.

Well, logia are not overall that much different from other fruits once haki is considered. They can be damaged just the same in the end. Being a logia would be convenient in other areas once haki is accounted for.

This sort of thinking only works defensively speaking.
In terms of offense, Logia's on average are simply the best, since there are only 2 Mythical Zoan's so we can't compare a category of 2 users to the other category's like Paramecia and Zoan where there are 15+ users

Now we've reached the New World, Haki means a lot, but its not to say Logia's relevance has taken a gigantic fall to become equal to Standard Zoan's, it most certainly hasn't. Logia's relevance has taken a fall but its still the 2nd best fruit, Mythical Zoan being first.
The long/mid range advantage that Logia's tend to provide, I mean I thought that Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu made it clear in the war where both sides had Haki access yet they just shone completely.

An example is the big hassle people are going through just to get the Mera Mera no Mi.

 

[kkck]

This sort of thinking only works defensively speaking.
In terms of offense, Logia's on average are simply the best, since there are only 2 Mythical Zoan's so we can't compare a category of 2 users to the other category's like Paramecia and Zoan where there are 15+ users

Now we've reached the New World, Haki means a lot, but its not to say Logia's relevance has taken a gigantic fall to become equal to Standard Zoan's, it most certainly hasn't. Logia's relevance has taken a fall but its still the 2nd best fruit, Mythical Zoan being first.
The long/mid range advantage that Logia's tend to provide, I mean I thought that Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu made it clear in the war where both sides had Haki access yet they just shone completely.

An example is the big hassle people are going through just to get the Mera Mera no Mi.

Logia relevance has always been defensive though, it is the intangibility thing which has always taken the spot when it comes to them. Honestly though, I don't precisely see why a logia on average would have greater offense than any other type of fruit on average. I guess the issue here is that when it comes to power it is always the innate strength of the use that makes the difference though. Just look at monet. She has a fruit which is 99% similar to kuzan's however in terms of what she can do compared to him she is massively, if not offensively, inferior. I guess there is a bit of a way to bypass the haki thing for a logia though, akainu actually did against marco and vista considering he got cut in the face and survived.

Some fruits would be flashier than others however I don't think the manga has shown logia or even mythological zoan in themselves have the greater offensive abilities. The strongest offense we have seen so far I would argue comes from the man, WB. Luffy by no means is lagging behind a logia in terms of offense(although oda did make the point that WB had the actual strongest paramecia). His gear 3 is every bit as colossal as the strongest attack from a logia so to speak. Moria was the least of the shichibukai and he was still able to land a fatal hit on oz...

 

[MBVC]

Hmm, I wonder how effective Foxy's time beam is against logica + mythical zoans, I mean he can do tons of nasty things within 30 seconds, Luffy won because of the plot driven otherwise Foxy only needed to throw his opponent into the sea then he would had won the game automatically.

 

[kkck]

His fruit would work just about the same way against anyone. I do think it is entirely possible for people in the new world to be faster than him even when hit with noro beams though. The fruit slows them down however if they are much faster it is entirely possible they could still be reasonably fast. Noro noro beams are definitely an ability to watch out for though, too bad it feel on the hands of an idiot. Imagine what it could do in the hands of someone with actual power.

 

[Azuma]

Speaking of the Darkness Fruit, do you think that someone with strong Haki could negate some of its' effects? We've seen how Haki can negate a logia power and allowed the user to physically touch that person. We've also seen how Haki can be used to damage Luffy. In short, Haki seems to involve some mysterious powers that negates some of the effects of a DF. What if Luffy, for example, used Armament Haki on his entire body. Do you think Blackbeard would still have been able to pull Luffy towards him?

 

[kkck]

I don't think "negate" is the proper term when it comes to DFs and haki. When in contact with haki logia users don't stop being their element nor luffy stops being rubber. Just look at ceasar, luffy grabbed him while he was gas. Luffy did not force ceasar solid, he grabbed him in spite of not being solid. Haki does not cancel anything in the least, the issue here is that it allows contact so to speak. Normally you can't grab air, haki allows you to grab air. As haki has the ability to allow you to touch things which are normally intangible it allows you to touch logia's intangible bodies.

In light of that there is no reason so far for haki to allow you to negate anything BB does. His pull can potentially be resisted but only if a force equal or greater can cancel it out. Grabbing onto something, or perhaps an ability which allows you to propel yourself or fly would potentially be able to resist it if the proper force is applied in the proper direction at the right time.