Voting Round 3 Tetsuo Shima vs. Madara Uchiha

[Nie Li]

Like i said EOS Tetsuo is so strong that entire Naruto verse can't beat him,Even when he was not that strong he burst a hole in the moon.And in the end he became one with the universe,basically a concept.

Bursting a hole in the moon is not a better feat than creating the moon (using a jutsu that Madara can perform), and in a fight with Madara there should be many things accounted for other than raw destructive power.

Tetsuo would likely win anyway, though.

 

[Arjuna]

Bursting a hole in the moon is not a better feat than creating the moon (using a jutsu that Madara can perform), and in a fight with Madara there should be many things accounted for other than raw destructive power.

Tetsuo would likely win anyway, though.

Did you miss i also posted this

''Even when he was not that strong''

But yeah Tetsuo wins this.

 

[Nie Li]

Did you miss i also posted this

''Even when he was not that strong''

But yeah Tetsuo wins this.

No, I did not miss that. That doesn't change the fact that it's not such a big feat for this fight, and not knowing for how much that strength would scale "when he is that strong" makes it an empty point.

 

[Arjuna]

No, I did not miss that. That doesn't change the fact that it's not such a big feat for this fight, and not knowing for how much that strength would scale "when he is that strong" makes it an empty point.

Well whatever...

But still i am basing this mainly on his EOS form.

 

[lakhan220]

Like i said EOS Tetsuo is so strong that entire Naruto verse can't beat him,Even when he was not that strong he burst a hole in the moon.And in the end he became one with the universe,basically a concept.

Well, if we say it is concept, sure, all good, but does it make him impervious to concept of naruto world ? U r merely going raw power here.

I m saying madara might make this a battle of deception and my other question was does him being concept means he is immune to extremely small beings such as virus and such ?
Let's not forget madara has life creation too.

Raw power is not always everything.

But still i am basing this mainly on his EOS form.

Why ? Is his Rinnegan & Juubi jin powers banned or something ?

 

[Arjuna]

Well, if we say it is concept, sure, all good, but does it make him impervious to concept of naruto world ? U r merely going raw power here.

I m saying madara might make this a battle of deception and my other question was does him being concept means he is immune to extremely small beings such as virus and such ?
Let's not forget madara has life creation too.

Raw power is not always everything.



Why ? Is his Rinnegan & Juubi jin powers banned or something ?

I meant EOS form of Tetsuo....

And no i am not basing on pure raw power(even in that field EOS Tetsuo will be far above anything anything Naruto characters have shown).When Akira absorbed him(i don't know whether you have read the manga Akira,really a masterpiece manga) he became literally one with the universe and a concept,to destroy him in that form there is probably two ways:-

i)Destroy that universe completely which no Naruto character can do.

ii) Conceptual Erasure- which is not possible for Madara.

 

[lakhan220]

I meant EOS form of Tetsuo....

And no i am not basing on pure raw power(even in that field EOS Tetsuo will be far above anything anything Naruto characters have shown).When Akira absorbed him(i don't know whether you have read the manga Akira,really a masterpiece manga) he became literally one with the universe and a concept,to destroy him in that form there is probably two ways:-

i)Destroy that universe completely which no Naruto character can do.

ii) Conceptual Erasure- which is not possible for Madara.

Ok, so the world of Akira grants him power of concept. Hmm, so my question is why is he immune to division of his power into multiple beings like juubi was divided ? Naruto's world shld also give few concepts advantage to madara here. U r basically depriving madara from his abilities based on akira verse. There r 2 verses here and both verses abilities shld have equal effects on each other until shown otherwise.

Conceptual erasure maybe impossible, but conceptual division is possible. Conceptual interferences with using new life form created can be done. Putting into genjutsu, sealing is possible too. Let me make it easier to compare. Concept u talk of is akin to energy and as law of conservation of energy says energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but can be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

Compare it to tht concept u said. Conceptual erasure is not the only thing tht can be done and death isn't the only way u lose battle.

As for raw power, let's not get too hasty because boruto is ongoing and there is now ootsusuki god concept who eats multiple planets and systems. But Madara isn't tht level yet. This answer was for the verse stuff u r saying none can. Basically, akin to daishikin stuffs rn.

 

[z.5]

Bursting a hole in the moon is not a better feat than creating the moon (using a jutsu that Madara can perform)

Ignoring that it was The SOT6P who made the moon - Madara does know the technique and might well be able to make a moon as large (who knows, he didn't try)

Making a new universe does somewhat trump a single moon


But aye, although I reckon Tetsuo does have this, when dealing with Naruto genjutsu - power does not equal everything


This fight might well come down to a question of who acts first and what they do...

The fact that Tetsuo can read minds will give him the advantage in this situation - also, the fact that Madara seems to not be a character who immediately reaches for genjutsu might well be his downfall

Tetsuo will be able to predict his movements better than the sharingan/rinnegan will be able to predict his (I mean, there's no chakra flow with Tetsuo even) - he can know what Madara will try, before he acts, and also what Madara expects the outcome of his technique to be

Should Tetsuo decide to go all out immediately, before Madara tries to genjutsu him, Madara might well be killed before he can act

 

[Arjuna]

Ok, so the world of Akira grants him power of concept. Hmm, so my question is why is he immune to division of his power into multiple beings like juubi was divided ? Naruto's world shld also give few concepts advantage to madara here. U r basically depriving madara from his abilities based on akira verse. There r 2 verses here and both verses abilities shld have equal effects on each other until shown otherwise.

Conceptual erasure maybe impossible, but conceptual division is possible. Conceptual interferences with using new life form created can be done. Putting into genjutsu, sealing is possible too. Let me make it easier to compare. Concept u talk of is akin to energy and as law of conservation of energy says energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but can be transformed or transferred from one form to another.

Compare it to tht concept u said. Conceptual erasure is not the only thing tht can be done and death isn't the only way u lose battle.

As for raw power, let's not get too hasty because boruto is ongoing and there is now ootsusuki god concept who eats multiple planets and systems. But Madara isn't tht level yet. This answer was for the verse stuff u r saying none can. Basically, akin to daishikin stuffs rn.

Tetsuo transcended physical form at the end of the series so that doesn't even matter.

He became basically what universe is.The things that you are mentioning Madara can do won't even tickle him unless Madara can effect the entire universe with his abilities. And by "Universe " i mean the very concept of the "Universe."

 

[z.5]

I'm not sure this talk of Tetsuo becoming 'one with the universe' is all that helpful - I don't recall it being all that clear what he became following Akira cancelling out his universe creation with his own creation of a brand new universe - it certainly doesn't give us much information on his abilities/character at that time

He did become immaterial, sure - but where does that leave him?

It's all a bit unclear

More useful to this fight, he could become intangible/incorporeal before he became literal power...

Also, I still don't think he even really needs to be a literal god/universe/whatever to win this

 

[Arjuna]

I'm not sure this talk of Tetsuo becoming 'one with the universe' is all that helpful - I don't recall it being all that clear what he became following Akira cancelling out his universe creation with his own creation of a brand new universe - it certainly doesn't give us much information on his abilities/character at that time

He did become immaterial, sure - but where does that leave him?

It's all a bit unclear

More useful to this fight, he could become intangible/incorporeal before he became literal power...

Also, I still don't think he even really needs to be a literal god/universe/whatever to win this

Well Akira absorbed him,and Akira created a new universe .My memory is bit hazy but correct me if i am wrong but doesn't he became an abstract existence?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

Yeah i think both of them created a big bang .

In the movie version he definitely became one with the Universe.

 

[lakhan220]

Tetsuo transcended physical form at the end of the series so that doesn't even matter.

He became basically what universe is.The things that you are mentioning Madara can do won't even tickle him unless Madara can effect the entire universe with his abilities. And by "Universe " i mean the very concept of the "Universe."

Transcending physical form isn't exactly a problem for naruto verse who seals souls too, but problem here is this concept of universe u speak of. Wikia states he actually died in manga. And it also states power started taking control over their bodies before final explosion of him vs akira. `

• Even though he only left to build a universe in the movie, Tetsuo actually dies in the manga. So, what is this one with the universe ?

Now, u say he is abstract existence and universe, so basically a God. If so, why is he exactly allowed in this tournament then ? Isn't he same as zeno and saitama ?

 

[z.5]

Hmm, so my question is why is he immune to division of his power into multiple beings like juubi was divided ?

Tetsuo isn't the power, he just uses the power of everything in the universe (or something?!?) - it would mean separating that power from everything and not just from a single being [Tetsuo]

I don't believe the SOT6P (who I reckon [but might be wrong] to be more powerful than Madara) was capable of this feat even

Well Akira absorbed him,and Akira created a new universe .My memory is bit hazy but correct me if i am wrong but doesn't he became an abstract existence?


Yeah i think both of them created a big bang .

In the movie version he definitely became one with the Universe.

In the movie it's hinted he becomes God
'I am' compared with 'I am Tetsuo'

This line (as far as I recall) does not happen in the manga

But aye, he seems to become an abstract being in the manga - sure, I believe it would make him rather untouchable/indestructible, but I dunno what else it gives him in this fight

Can he even act as he could before? Would he even want to anymore?!?

 

[lakhan220]

Tetsuo isn't the power, he just uses the power of everything in the universe (or something?!?) - it would mean separating that power from everything and not just from a single being [Tetsuo]

I don't believe the SOT6P (who I reckon [but might be wrong] to be more powerful than Madara) was capable of this feat even

I see. Is he immune to division of his soul like kurama was divided by minato is what i was thinking abt ?
Also, one other thing I had in mind was , if we actually go by naruto verse abilities, can't madara create a tetsuo clone like oorichimaru created life and rikudo did giving them personalities and make him oppose tetsuo and let them kill out each other ? All they need is DNA and it wouldn't be tht hard to get one.
Basically, he has to just hide himself until the time .

His powers and mechanisms r really unclear to me.

abstract being in the manga - sure, I believe it would make him rather untouchable/indestructible, but I dunno what else it gives him in this fight

Can he even act as he could before? Would he even want to anymore?!?

More imp question would be what is he doing unbanned in this tournament ? And didn't he die in manga ?
For other verse's power to work here, it means they shld be able in same dimensions. And if in same dimensions means he is not in a higher one or abstract being and other verse's stuffs will work on him, which then negates statements of akira verse.

Quite a contradiction here it is.

 

[Arjuna]

Transcending physical form isn't exactly a problem for naruto verse who seals souls too, but problem here is this concept of universe u speak of. Wikia states he actually died in manga. And it also states power started taking control over their bodies before final explosion of him vs akira. `

• Even though he only left to build a universe in the movie, Tetsuo actually dies in the manga. So, what is this one with the universe ?

Now, u say he is abstract existence and universe, so basically a God. If so, why is he exactly allowed in this tournament then ? Isn't he same as zeno and saitama ?

Zeno and Saitama isn't even that strong,though Zeno should be far stronger than Tetsuo.Basically in the world of fiction they are small fishes.

You should read the fifth volume.I don't remember all that but both Akira and Tetsuo became one and a new universe was created.Kaneda saw memories of Tetsuo and later it was shown he was absorbed by Akira and his physical existence ceased to exist.That's what i interpreted.

 

[lakhan220]

Zeno and Saitama isn't even that strong,though Zeno should be far stronger than Tetsuo.Basically in the world of fiction they are small fishes.

You should read the fifth volume.I don't remember all that but both Akira and Tetsuo became one and a new universe was created.Kaneda saw memories of Tetsuo and later it was shown he was absorbed by Akira and his physical existence ceased to exist.That's what i interpreted.

Ofc, ik they aren't tht compared to haxes out there.

So, it was left abstract in the manga, then why does wikia state he is dead ? Any other sources to confirm or deny this ?
Basically, their own world, their own laws and they r creators there . But like sky states, when we let other verses battle, we have to bring a common ground and also tht abilities affect each other.

Based on what u say, he doesn't even exist anymore physically, just as a memory/soul, so how is memory supposed to beat physical or physical beat memory ?
If soul, u can say, it can still be sealed.

Kinda this abstract being ain't one suitable for tournament imo. basically what i said to z above.

 

[Arjuna]

Ofc, ik they aren't tht compared to haxes out there.

So, it was left abstract in the manga, then why does wikia state he is dead ? Any other sources to confirm or deny this ?
Basically, their own world, their own laws and they r creators there . But like sky states, when we let other verses battle, we have to bring a common ground and also tht abilities affect each other.

Based on what u say, he doesn't even exist anymore physically, just as a memory/soul, so how is memory supposed to beat physical or physical beat memory ?
If soul, u can say, it can still be sealed.

Kinda this abstract being ain't one suitable for tournament imo. basically what i said to z above.

Wiki isn't always accurate though

I normally consult wiki if i am not aware at all about a character ,but if i know then follow the things i have personally noticed .

But yeah physically in the universe where the story is set he is dead,but in another universe he is basically what he is.

Even if common ground is set,doesn't mean that suddenly let's say a mountain level character will jump and be able to effect a planet level character.

 

[lakhan220]

Wiki isn't always accurate though

I normally consult wiki if i am not aware at all about a character ,but if i know then follow the things i have personally noticed .

But yeah physically in the universe where the story is set he is dead,but in another universe he is basically what he is.

Even if common ground is set,doesn't mean that suddenly let's say a mountain level character will jump and be able to effect a planet level character.

Tht is mere raw power there u compared again, if they r essentially in same plane, then even a mountain level character can seal or even defeat them. A mere virus was enough to kill goku, multiple planet busters in alternate timeline.
With specific set of abilities, tht raw power can be overcome. And if they exist in same plane, means the hax which akira verse gives him, is not applicable and also naruto verse's abilities affecting would be again the contradiction arising I mentioned. For example, madara creates a tetsuo clone and then let him and original kill.

U don't have to be multiverse level to be able to do tht. Just having a simple ability of creating life is enough.

But yeah physically in the universe where the story is set he is dead,but in another universe he is basically what he is.

So, basically a pocket dimension type thing and how and what tht universe is or the powers r in there or what laws r there i assume was never shown in manga...am i correct ?

 

[z.5]

if we actually go by naruto verse abilities, can't madara create a tetsuo clone like oorichimaru created life and rikudo did giving them personalities and make him oppose tetsuo and let them kill out each other ? All they need is DNA and it wouldn't be tht hard to get one.

Do you mean like Yamato, like Edo Tensei, or something else?

I dunno how long it took to make Yamato - it did seem to take a lot of time, effort and research (and he had to grow a clone, if I recall)

With Edo Tensei, I'm also unclear of how much preparation is needed - you certainly do need a sacrifice (that Madara doesn't have) and a soul (Tetsuo wouldn't be dead yet)

also a ET clone, even Orochimaru's final Hokage clones, were not as strong as the originals were

I don't recall Madara making any other kind of clones (of other people) in the Manga - though it's possible I missed it in all the other guff that was going on...

Basically, he has to just hide himself until the time

I'm not sure where he even could hide if Tetsuo went all out - the chances of the Earth being destroyed aren't small and, unlike Tetsuo, I can't recall any evidence of Madara being able to survive in a hard vacuum...

More imp question would be what is he doing unbanned in this tournament ? And didn't he die in manga ?

No, he did certainly not die in the manga (or the film)

For other verse's power to work here, it means they shld be able in same dimensions

It's why I keep on stating how unhelpful it is to talk about that form of Tetsuo here

It's exactly the same as my reservations about discussing the powers and abilities of the Daishinkan (Dragon Ball) - there is so little known it makes all discussion pretty meaningless

 

[lakhan220]

Do you mean like Yamato, like Edo Tensei, or something else?

No, i m talking creation of all things rikudo used. Using dark and light energy he created bijuus and juubi jinchuuriki madara has access to those abilities as per databook after becoming juubi jinchuuriki.

And madara made hashirama clone implanting his DNA using mazou which grew after his death and was shown to kabuto by obito.

I'm not sure where he even could hide if Tetsuo went all out - the chances of the Earth being destroyed aren't small and, unlike Tetsuo, I can't recall any evidence of Madara being able to survive in a hard vacuum...

Doesn't his rinnegan give him access to limbo dimension and he can swap places with one of the limbo from the very dimension he summons? It is up for debate tht since it was never shown - the dimension of limbo but he can swap places with it was shown.

No, he did certainly not die in the manga (or the film)

Then wikia is wrong. They also didn't have sources mentioned is why i asked.

It's why I keep on stating how unhelpful it is to talk about that form of Tetsuo here

It's exactly the same as my reservations about discussing the powers and abilities of the Daishinkan (Dragon Ball) - there is so little known it makes all discussion pretty meaningless

shld have asked for banning them too when they were nominated ig.