Canon The conclusive Luffy vs DD thread

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Hannibal Psyche

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However the opponents he is after DD, sooner or later Jack and Kaido are older and have fought numerous of time.
Luffy has improved in strength but Law and other people help him out in taking down DD.

Sabo and other keep saying he needs his crew to look after him because of his lack of plan and naivety.
He is bold, go-getter but he is still lacking experience.

Also, Luffy needs to beat strong opponents for the plot but Oda has used multiple characters and events to not make Luffy seen as complete as DD.
Again, the reason why Luffy is able to take down those guys is in his ability to involve people in his fight (how much he cares for his teammates, his alliance, ex ennemies..) . Comparing to DD or Crocro and others, they are far too self-centred on their own strength to make the difference.

That's simple, this is not a rhethoric statement, it's factual.
If we look at Luffy pre-timeskip, the opponents he beat should seem like impossible walls for him to scale:

  1. Luffy defeated Kuro.
  2. Then he defeated Don Krieg, Arlong, Wapol, Crocodile and the list goes on.
  3. Each opponent seemed more impossible than the last, but Luffy ultimately comes out on top with his own power.
Luffy literally gets exponentially stronger after each and every fight; if we're going to factor age as a reason why Luffy wouldn't be able to defeat an opponent, it's simply too late to use that argument because Luffy defeated Crocodile who has been a veteran for over 20 years. Crocodile entered the New World and got defeated by Whitebeard in his mid-20s and was again defeated when he was 44.

If Luffy can defeat an opponent with ~20 years of experience, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to defeat the pending opponents that await him simply because they have more experience; one of Luffy's feats is that he's pretty much a genius in the art of combat.

His ability to have the aid of people only factors to an extent:

  • The best Law could do was defeat Trebol which allowed the situation to remain a 1 v 1 indefintely.
  • What did the people of Dressrosa do in order for Luffy to defeat Joker? They didn't weaken Joker or reduce his stamina, all they did was buy him time to minimally recover which essentially means Luffy's own strength was ultimately what brought him victory.
  • What Luffy's allies really do is level the playing field so he can fight the antagonist without much disturbance and that's always been the case in all his fights.
Ace (as has Sabo now) may have told Luffy's crew to look after him, but his victories over Enel, Crocodile and Lucci were ultimately as a result of his being equally strong enough to defeat the enemy and not really attributable to allies.

Luffy himself has stated that he'd defeat Admirals and Yonko along and prior to Dressrosa, he said he'll defeat all 4 Yonko; so Luffy's victories will ultimately always be because of his strength irregardless of plans and being cared for.

and after making this statement that a Pirate King defeats the Admiral and Yonko, it's imperative that he himself defeats the Yonko and Admirals, or how can he be truly considered a worthy Pirate King if he fails to fulfil his claims or meet the standards of what a Pirate King does?

Looking at Luffy's fights since he was 17, he simply went into the Grand Line pretty much already strong enough since he was training often, all he needed was the experience to push him to unlocking his potential and this will continually be the case as he advances further into the New World. We will always doubt Luffy's ability to beat the next opponent, but Luffy will always rise to the challenge and clear those doubts.
 

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Most of doflamingo's attacks are ranged, I don't think what he did with the awakening of his fruit suggests much in regards to doflamingo wanting to avoid confronting luffy. The manga never really says or alludes to such a thing.

But... luffy wasn't really doing all that great. The only hit he landed before law used his gamma knife was when law helped luffy land the redhawk punch. Other than that luffy basically got brushed away by doflamingo to fight bellamy. When luffy did get back his gear 2 and 3 proved to be utterly useless. As in, his gear 2 literally connected with doflamingo and doflamingo barely felt it at all. And gear 3 was easily blocked with doflamingo's strings or otherwise easily avoided. Luffy only really did anything to doflamingo once he used gear 4 and started punching him around. And I don't see how the damage doflamingo had taken up to that point could be anything less than considerable.
I share the same opinion as you regarding Luffy's useless attacks against Joker, at Dressrosa arc was shown that Luffy wasn't strong enough to take the big shots of Shin Sekai yet IMHO as we could see that gear 4 has a limited time and yet was not enough to take DD down even with all the heavy internal damage he already took before.
 

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Personally I feel people overrate Doflamingo. Yes, gear 2 and 3 couldn't do anything against him but neither could Doflamingo against gear 4 and I don't see that changed wheather he did or didn't take damage. It's true that gear 4 run out(even though it were mere seconds) before finishing Doflamingo but IMO it would be logical that gear 4 would last longer if Luffy didn't have fights prior to Doflamingo. Outcome of the fight would depend wheather Doflamingo could endure longer spam of gear 4 attacks IMO
 

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For me it's a bit hard for me to say Gamma Knife was a game changer because Doflamingo's emergency first aid application allowed him to escape death, get right back up, and continue fighting without any sign of decreased mobility. There's no arguing that he was certainly hurt but to what extent was really he affected after stitching his organs back together? Apparently not much.
One can also argue that the stamina and energy used in stitching his organs and restoring himself to a state of regular mobility could've enabled him to keep going in his fight against luffy.

Anyway, because of how the manga fight went, I doubt the fandom can actually come to singular answer about who is stronger. Heck, even in fights were things weren't that shaky, arguments can be made for the one who lost to actually win. IMO, I'd say that Luffy was just a tad bit under DD. A fight between them would be tough but DD will still emerge victorious. Considering the caliber of opponents they both fought prior to their final showdown and the apparent damage received, I'd say DD already took more than Luffy. Sure Luffy fought a lot of people, but they were mainly fodder who couldn't do substantial damage. Regardless of the circumstances, Luffy never received injuries as grave as the singular one done by gamma knife. As for gamma knife itself, I'd say it played a bit of a role in DD's ultimate defeat. That was an attack that genuinely left DD incapacitated for a while. DD is a high tier character and people like him don't show much when it comes to pain. Think of WB. He got a hole punched in him and half his face blown up but there was no apparent change in his mobility or capacity to fight. That doesn't mean the damage done was irrelevant though. There's simple no way such levels of damage had no effect on him, he's just able to fight through it. In the long run, such injuries would diminish energy and stamina even if it isn't obvious. In DD's case, he got his insides diced up, he then proceeded to hold it together via strings by himself. Organs are delicate, unlike the outer body which can withstand damage based on stength, training etc, organs remain soft. Those were fresh stitches on his organs (let's not even talk about how much that should hurt) and to keep fighting on with such injuries is no small feat. DD also gets punched in the area a fair bit. I don't think one can underestimate what it would have taken for DD to keep fighting like normal even though it's not apparent.

Between Gear 2 & 3, Luffy could hold his own against DD. Well, basically, those ensured that he didn't simply get overpowered like law was. However, they simply weren't enough to be decisive and DD would've gotten the better of him eventually. Gear 4 on the other hand overwhelmed DD but luffy ran out of that. We're talking about a situation were both had exhausted a fair bit of stamina and energy. DD had taken more imo, but for argument's sake, let's say they were equal. The point is that Luffy ran out before time. In the event that they were both fresh, imo, that would only translate to a longer fight but with the same outcome. Stitches don't heal instantly and DD himself acknowledged that he only did first-aid. Luffy also acknowledged that DD took substantial damage from law. When gear 4 ran out, luffy was literally helpless while DD who was walking around with stitched organs and after taking that much damage was the one still standing and even dispatching numerous others.

So imo, if they fought under normal conditions, luffy will overpower DD for majority of the fight but will simply be unable to land a finishing blow before gear 4 runs out and then he'd be a sitting duck for DD.
 

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Personally I feel people overrate Doflamingo. Yes, gear 2 and 3 couldn't do anything against him but neither could Doflamingo against gear 4 and I don't see that changed wheather he did or didn't take damage. It's true that gear 4 run out(even though it were mere seconds) before finishing Doflamingo but IMO it would be logical that gear 4 would last longer if Luffy didn't have fights prior to Doflamingo. Outcome of the fight would depend wheather Doflamingo could endure longer spam of gear 4 attacks IMO
He is not really overrated it's a stated fact that he is pretty strong maybe one of the strongest shichibukai the fact is Luffy didn't do any real damage to DD using his normal skill (Gear 2nd, CoC, Gear 3rd) He needed Law's help do land the red hawk at DD and it wasn't big deal for DD to stand after that almost at 100%.

And using the powerful Gear 4th he couldn't take DD down at first even after doing heavy damage to him.

I'm a big fan of Luffy but it was clear for me that he coudn't beat DD alone like he did before after facing so many strong opponents and overcoming them (Rob Lucci, Moria, Ceasar, Enel).
 

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I get everyone's point and all but in the fight i really dont remember Doffy giving Luffy any real damage, only remember small cuts that didnt even bug Luffy and him knocking Luffy down which wouldnt have hurt Luffy to begin with, sure Doffy was strong but in all honesty Luffy was just a better fighter than him
 

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I get everyone's point and all but in the fight i really dont remember Doffy giving Luffy any real damage, only remember small cuts that didnt even bug Luffy and him knocking Luffy down which wouldnt have hurt Luffy to begin with, sure Doffy was strong but in all honesty Luffy was just a better fighter than him
The only time he drew blood is when Luffy finally got up again, and he wasn't in Gear 4 mode.DD impaled him with his awakened strings, and I guess Luffy's haki wasn't enough to stop them from cutting him.
 

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He is not really overrated it's a stated fact that he is pretty strong maybe one of the strongest shichibukai the fact is Luffy didn't do any real damage to DD using his normal skill (Gear 2nd, CoC, Gear 3rd) He needed Law's help do land the red hawk at DD and it wasn't big deal for DD to stand after that almost at 100%.

And using the powerful Gear 4th he couldn't take DD down at first even after doing heavy damage to him.

I'm a big fan of Luffy but it was clear for me that he coudn't beat DD alone like he did before after facing so many strong opponents and overcoming them (Rob Lucci, Moria, Ceasar, Enel).
Why do you seem to forget that Luffy wasn't in his top shape too ?
No discussion about DD vs Luffy should start without taking into consideration Gamma Knife & Luffy being in the colliseum and tanking Bellamy's attacks and looking for DD

No matter how we look at it, Gear 4 overpowered DD, he couldn't handle it and the best he could do was stalling

Gear 2/3 weren't enough to beat DD, when Luffy was fighting seriously against DD, they were both more or less around the same level, if not DD slightly superior. The moment Luffy used Gear 4, the fight changed

While both of them weren't in their best conditions, the same result would've happened... Meaning that Luffy with Gear 4 would've beaten the shit out of DD, and possibly finish the fight since Luffy would have more stamina

Speedwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4
Powerwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4

And if DD didn't have his awakening, the fight would've been much more shorter actually, since it enabled DD to stall for time
 

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Why do you seem to forget that Luffy wasn't in his top shape too ?
No discussion about DD vs Luffy should start without taking into consideration Gamma Knife & Luffy being in the colliseum and tanking Bellamy's attacks and looking for DD

No matter how we look at it, Gear 4 overpowered DD, he couldn't handle it and the best he could do was stalling

Gear 2/3 weren't enough to beat DD, when Luffy was fighting seriously against DD, they were both more or less around the same level, if not DD slightly superior. The moment Luffy used Gear 4, the fight changed

While both of them weren't in their best conditions, the same result would've happened... Meaning that Luffy with Gear 4 would've beaten the shit out of DD, and possibly finish the fight since Luffy would have more stamina

Speedwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4
Powerwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4

And if DD didn't have his awakening, the fight would've been much more shorter actually, since it enabled DD to stall for time
As far as the colloseum goes, luffy never took that much damage to be fair. Even against chinjao luffy kinda lucked out as chinjao had the whole head thing going on. Even if it had some effect on his stamina at the time he had plenty of time to recover as well. Overall the manga has shown luffy as someone who recovers relatively fast from fights. He did take some damage from bellamy though. Still, I would argue doflamingo did take significantly more damage than luffy ever did through all of that.

I really don't see how luffy before gear 4 was in any form equal to doflamingo. At least as far as I can tell doflamingo consistently showed he was immensely superior. At best it was a matter of time until doflamingo would have won in more or less the same way he had won against law. Luffy could avoid doflamingo's attacks however doflamingo was by all intents and purposes not affected by gear 2 or 3. In turn doflamingo's attacks did hurt luffy. Gear 4 was a game changer in that regard but the manga conclusively proves it was not enough to actually beat doflamingo. Luffy simply didn't last enough to finish the job on his own. I don't recall doflamingo ever stalling for time either. He fights at a range because that is his thing to a great extent however he never made a point of running away or getting some distance between them. Sure, the issue luffy had was that he didn't last the extra second he needed to deliver the punch he needed... However that was not doflamingo's doing, that was luffy who punched doflamingo that far away. And even then, when luffy did deliver the last punch it was the absolute last punch luffy could use, after the 10 minute recovery luffy could do a single punch before passing out.

To be honest, I don't think the punch that did doflamingo in would have worked had doflamingo fought luffy at full strength from the start. Doflamingo only stitched himself up but his organs weren't healed, they were basically slashed cleanly in half. Even doflamingo makes the point that he needed more time to fully recover. Stitching is in no form or context healing, doflamingo was not well. Sure, he wasn't panting and that sort of thing but the whole thing should be seen as a testament to doflamingo's gargantuan strength, at least relative to luffy's. Had doflamingo not sustained the damage he had taken, it is very well possible that even luffy's second run with gear 4 would not have done the job. If luffy was able to use his gear 4 as he is able to use his other gears then luffy would definitely be able to take doflamingo on his own however that is far from the case. As it stands luffy needs 2 runs on gear 4 and have his allies chip away at every bit of strength they can from doflamingo along with actual armies protecting him while he recovers to win. In a scenario where the two fight alone at the peak of their strength luffy would at best use gear 4, pound doflamingo a bit and then run out of juice while doflamingo has a solid ten minutes to do absolutely anything he wants to luffy's immobile body. Luffy didn't win against doflamingo on his own, luffy beat doflamingo specifically because of every ally he had backing him up. Luffy won because he has the most dangerous ability in the ocean, to make friends of everyone he met.
 

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Why do you seem to forget that Luffy wasn't in his top shape too ?
No discussion about DD vs Luffy should start without taking into consideration Gamma Knife & Luffy being in the colliseum and tanking Bellamy's attacks and looking for DD

No matter how we look at it, Gear 4 overpowered DD, he couldn't handle it and the best he could do was stalling

Gear 2/3 weren't enough to beat DD, when Luffy was fighting seriously against DD, they were both more or less around the same level, if not DD slightly superior. The moment Luffy used Gear 4, the fight changed

While both of them weren't in their best conditions, the same result would've happened... Meaning that Luffy with Gear 4 would've beaten the shit out of DD, and possibly finish the fight since Luffy would have more stamina

Speedwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4
Powerwise, Luffy was superior with Gear 4

And if DD didn't have his awakening, the fight would've been much more shorter actually, since it enabled DD to stall for time
For sure Luffy wasn't in his top shape but so was DD and he was even worse than Luffy because of Gamma Knife, there's no way we can't consider Law's powerful attack since it was decisive for the battle, before Gear 4th it was the real heavy damage DD took.

Luffys Tanking Belamy and battling at coliseu doesn't count that much mostly because they're all fodder except for Bellamy who ins't that strong although capable of using CoC.

DD taking a direct Red Hawk doesn't count either as he could stand and fight as if nothing was happened.

The result was, both tired and hurted a lot and who could land the final blow won that fight Luffy had the chance but not enough power/time to finish and after that was DD time but Luffy run for 10 minutes (4 or 5 chapters) before having the chance again and DD was still kicking fodder's asses

I'm a little disappointed about that fight and gear 4 limited time because it was clear that isn't enough to face big shots with only 10 minutes of fighting time (Jimbe vs Ace lasts 5 days, Aokiji vs Akainu 10 days, even now we saw Jack struggling hard during 6 hours).

He has to face Kaidou alone and with just ten minutes of gear 4 there should be a lot of people to run out of the problem with Luffy in their back.
 

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As far as the colloseum goes, luffy never took that much damage to be fair. Even against chinjao luffy kinda lucked out as chinjao had the whole head thing going on. Even if it had some effect on his stamina at the time he had plenty of time to recover as well. Overall the manga has shown luffy as someone who recovers relatively fast from fights. He did take some damage from bellamy though. Still, I would argue doflamingo did take significantly more damage than luffy ever did through all of that.
It's not about damage, but stamina mostly in the colliseum and beating all those DD henchmen after that. Luffy didn't get a lot of time to recover since right after his fight, he left the colliseum to go after DD in the palace. Against Bellamy he tanked his attacks and took some damage, obviously not on the same level as Gamma Knife but then again when you look at DD fighting after that, he didn't seem bothered by the Gamma Knife at all. There's no doubt it had some effect, as Luffy himself mentioned but I don't think it had that much of an effect thanks to his DF

I really don't see how luffy before gear 4 was in any form equal to doflamingo. At least as far as I can tell doflamingo consistently showed he was immensely superior. At best it was a matter of time until doflamingo would have won in more or less the same way he had won against law. Luffy could avoid doflamingo's attacks however doflamingo was by all intents and purposes not affected by gear 2 or 3. In turn doflamingo's attacks did hurt luffy. Gear 4 was a game changer in that regard but the manga conclusively proves it was not enough to actually beat doflamingo. Luffy simply didn't last enough to finish the job on his own. I don't recall doflamingo ever stalling for time either. He fights at a range because that is his thing to a great extent however he never made a point of running away or getting some distance between them. Sure, the issue luffy had was that he didn't last the extra second he needed to deliver the punch he needed... However that was not doflamingo's doing, that was luffy who punched doflamingo that far away. And even then, when luffy did deliver the last punch it was the absolute last punch luffy could use, after the 10 minute recovery luffy could do a single punch before passing out.
I don't agree with you here, Luffy was holding his own against DD and were roughly equal, I'd still give the edge to DD but the fight was even when he was using Gear 2. Obviously he lacked the strength, since he needed to finish the fight asap because of the birdcage. Gear 3 was too slow for DD, but with Gear 2 he was definitely holding his own, and both were hitting each other.

Of course Doflamingo's attacks will hurt more since they were cutting techniques, and Luffy is weak towards that kind of attacks.

The manga doesn't prove it wasn't enough, it only proved Luffy did not have enough time, imagine if he followed it up with a punch right after the Leo Bazooka and not just looking around to see if the Birdcage is still up or not, then the fight would've been over right there. Imagine if Luffy with his stamina at 100%, we can safely assume Gear 4 would last a bit longer

To be honest, I don't think the punch that did doflamingo in would have worked had doflamingo fought luffy at full strength from the start. Doflamingo only stitched himself up but his organs weren't healed, they were basically slashed cleanly in half. Even doflamingo makes the point that he needed more time to fully recover. Stitching is in no form or context healing, doflamingo was not well. Sure, he wasn't panting and that sort of thing but the whole thing should be seen as a testament to doflamingo's gargantuan strength, at least relative to luffy's. Had doflamingo not sustained the damage he had taken, it is very well possible that even luffy's second run with gear 4 would not have done the job. If luffy was able to use his gear 4 as he is able to use his other gears then luffy would definitely be able to take doflamingo on his own however that is far from the case. As it stands luffy needs 2 runs on gear 4 and have his allies chip away at every bit of strength they can from doflamingo along with actual armies protecting him while he recovers to win. In a scenario where the two fight alone at the peak of their strength luffy would at best use gear 4, pound doflamingo a bit and then run out of juice while doflamingo has a solid ten minutes to do absolutely anything he wants to luffy's immobile body. Luffy didn't win against doflamingo on his own, luffy beat doflamingo specifically because of every ally he had backing him up. Luffy won because he has the most dangerous ability in the ocean, to make friends of everyone he met.
Again, the Gamma Knife did damage DD, nobody is denying that at all... However, I think people are blowing the damage out of proportions... DD was basically fighting and keeping up the same performance after tanking Gamma Knife, his speed didn't decrease nor his strength overall. Surely DD has amazing stamina, much more than even Luffy is you ask me, but the Gamma Knife wasn't that effective to the point where it gave Luffy that much of an advantage

It also happened that the awakening technique was fairly convenient to keep Luffy away since he's close range, can't say DD was the best matchup for Luffy overall
 

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The only time he drew blood is when Luffy finally got up again, and he wasn't in Gear 4 mode.DD impaled him with his awakened strings, and I guess Luffy's haki wasn't enough to stop them from cutting him.
LOL so in the whole fight Doffy only gave Luffy real damage just once :0
 

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This is quite interesting topic even though it's something that we can't really get any proof either way unless Oda says something. One thing that jumps to me is that people who thinks that Gamma knife hurt DD really bad downplays the effects of everything that Luffy had to go through.

For sure Luffy wasn't in his top shape but so was DD and he was even worse than Luffy because of Gamma Knife, there's no way we can't consider Law's powerful attack since it was decisive for the battle, before Gear 4th it was the real heavy damage DD took.

Luffys Tanking Belamy and battling at coliseu doesn't count that much mostly because they're all fodder except for Bellamy who ins't that strong although capable of using CoC.

DD taking a direct Red Hawk doesn't count either as he could stand and fight as if nothing was happened.

The result was, both tired and hurted a lot and who could land the final blow won that fight Luffy had the chance but not enough power/time to finish and after that was DD time but Luffy run for 10 minutes (4 or 5 chapters) before having the chance again and DD was still kicking fodder's asses
Not really changing things much, but thought it's worth mentioning that you're kinda contradicting yourself with the sentences that I highlighted. If you think that Red Hawk didn't hurt DD at all, how can you think Gamma knife hurt him that much when he was standing and fighting like nothing happened after that attack too?
 

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At least as far as I can tell doflamingo consistently showed he was immensely superior.
If he was so superior to Luffy, why couldn't he kill Law when he attempted to do so and even went as far as making use of Conqueror's haki in order to deter Luffy? Where exactly is Joker shown to be superior while Luffy is in Gear 2nd, where's the 1-sided domination?
 

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If he was so superior to Luffy, why couldn't he kill Law when he attempted to do so and even went as far as making use of Conqueror's haki in order to deter Luffy? Where exactly is Joker shown to be superior while Luffy is in Gear 2nd, where's the 1-sided domination?
Luffy never did anything to doflamingo before gear 4. And IIRC doflamingo shot, mutilated and otherwise maimed law repeated. Law simply survived those, it's not even a matter of law properly defending himself. And when he was about to crush law luffy stopped him. It's not like law survived because he managed to defend himself or anything of that sort. Also, using conqueror's haki is not a benchmark to how hard someone is trying. It's a generic power which they use effortlessly. It's not like activating a gear or something, it doesn't show they were equal. In turn doflamingo did manage to land a few hits on luffy and we saw for a fact that neither gear 2 or 3 were effective in any form against doflamingo.
 

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Luffy had another disadvantage which was TIME LIMIT. Luffy was forced to beat Doflamingo in under 1 hour while most of the fights fought by other strong people (for example Ace and Jinbei) took many days.
 

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Luffy never did anything to doflamingo before gear 4. And IIRC doflamingo shot, mutilated and otherwise maimed law repeated. Law simply survived those, it's not even a matter of law properly defending himself. And when he was about to crush law luffy stopped him. It's not like law survived because he managed to defend himself or anything of that sort. Also, using conqueror's haki is not a benchmark to how hard someone is trying. It's a generic power which they use effortlessly. It's not like activating a gear or something, it doesn't show they were equal. In turn doflamingo did manage to land a few hits on luffy and we saw for a fact that neither gear 2 or 3 were effective in any form against doflamingo.
But he didn't do anything to Luffy himself.You can't base DD's strength solely on his fight with Law, Law isn't Luffy and vice versa. Like I explained earlier, Law is more fit for fighting from a distance, thanks to his Ope Ope. Luffy has always been a brawler, pretty much like DD. And what do you think happened when they fought hand to hand prior to Gear 4? Luffy held his ground, he and DD were equal. And even after Gear 4 and DD using the awakening he still couldn't do anything to Luffy.
 

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Luffy never did anything to doflamingo before gear 4. And IIRC doflamingo shot, mutilated and otherwise maimed law repeated. Law simply survived those, it's not even a matter of law properly defending himself. And when he was about to crush law luffy stopped him. It's not like law survived because he managed to defend himself or anything of that sort. Also, using conqueror's haki is not a benchmark to how hard someone is trying. It's a generic power which they use effortlessly. It's not like activating a gear or something, it doesn't show they were equal. In turn doflamingo did manage to land a few hits on luffy and we saw for a fact that neither gear 2 or 3 were effective in any form against doflamingo.
Actually I do think that you should re-read the manga kkck. Luffy did land many hits on DD with his gear2nd. Luffy landed more hits on DD than DD did to him. Luffy also outsmarted DD when fighting with gear 2nd couple of times.
 

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Luffy never did anything to doflamingo before gear 4. And IIRC doflamingo shot, mutilated and otherwise maimed law repeated. Law simply survived those, it's not even a matter of law properly defending himself. And when he was about to crush law luffy stopped him. It's not like law survived because he managed to defend himself or anything of that sort. Also, using conqueror's haki is not a benchmark to how hard someone is trying. It's a generic power which they use effortlessly. It's not like activating a gear or something, it doesn't show they were equal. In turn doflamingo did manage to land a few hits on luffy and we saw for a fact that neither gear 2 or 3 were effective in any form against doflamingo.
You're missing the point, Law is not the topic of focus, it's clear that he was no match for Joker seeing that he was defeated twice in 1 arc.

The point is if Joker was so superior to Luffy while in Gear 2nd, why was he unable to kill Law?

It's like when Kizaru tried to kill the SHs, the only thing that stopped him from successfully doing so was Rayleigh; if not for Rayleigh, they'd all be dead.

This situation is no different from Kizaru trying to kill the SHs; so, really, if Joker is as or so superior to Luffy in Gear 2nd as you're making him out to be, why wasn't he able to get Luffy out of his way in attempt to kill Law? He twice tried to crush Law's head, so if Luffy wasn't at least on par with Joker, why wasn't Joker successful?
 

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Actually I do think that you should re-read the manga kkck. Luffy did land many hits on DD with his gear2nd. Luffy landed more hits on DD than DD did to him. Luffy also outsmarted DD when fighting with gear 2nd couple of times.
I didn't say luffy didn't land hits, I said his attacks were ineffective. Luffy landed the red hawk which the manga immediately pointed out didn't do much and even then it was only made possible because law helped luffy out. Then luffy kicked doflamingo's chin which didn't phase him much either. In turn in their initial confrontation it took doflamingo two seconds to slash and punch luffy without any help, just using his clone technique. From that point onward luffy only landed a kick but even that was only possible because doflamingo was going after law. There literally is a chapter dedicated to how ineffective both gears are. It's only gear 4 that gives luffy a fighting chance and even then it simply didn't last long enough to give luffy a chance.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

You're missing the point, Law is not the topic of focus, it's clear that he was no match for Joker seeing that he was defeated twice in 1 arc.

The point is if Joker was so superior to Luffy while in Gear 2nd, why was he unable to kill Law?

It's like when Kizaru tried to kill the SHs, the only thing that stopped him from successfully doing so was Rayleigh; if not for Rayleigh, they'd all be dead.

This situation is no different from Kizaru trying to kill the SHs; so, really, if Joker is as or so superior to Luffy in Gear 2nd as you're making him out to be, why wasn't he able to get Luffy out of his way in attempt to kill Law? He twice tried to crush Law's head, so if Luffy wasn't at least on par with Joker, why wasn't Joker successful?
Doflamingo left law alive quite a few times intentionally. It's not that doflamingo couldn't, the issue is that he wouldn't. As for the rest, why would luffy being able to prevent doflamingo from landing a fatal blow on law imply luffy was able to keep up? All luffy had to do what get in the way, he didn't have to match doflamingo's strength for that.
 
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