Canon The conclusive Luffy vs DD thread

[kkck]

Prior to Joker saying that attack tickled, what about this looks like tickling?

Spoiler

Clearly, Luffy's attack are not tickles. However, you're missing the context of that attack that Joker called a tickle. There's no way that an "Eagle" attack is weaker than a normal haki powered punch from Luffy.

Spoiler

What you're not realizing in that scene is that there's a reason why Joker is called Heavenly Demon, it's because in the air, he's superior to his opponents as he himself has implied.

Spoiler

Also, the fact that he's so adept at moving in the air and isolating himself in mid-air gives him the ability to mitigate the power of blows which is why that attack is referred to as weak. If he was dealt that blow while on the ground, we know he'd be coughing up blood for sure if Red Hawk or Luffy's normal punches could result in that as previously shown.

If all Luffy's punches were "tickles", then it contradicts every reaction that Joker has expressed thus far; he didn't just suddenly turn into Kaido nor did Luffy just suddenly become weak, it's because Joker is in the air where he's most advantaged.

It's 20 minutes regardless of translation, they all say the same thing. Joker wasn't taking a constant beating, he was deterring Luffy by keeping him in the air with his strings. He didn't want to fight Luffy head on because of the 5 attacks he received where he learnt that his physical attacks were just going to get rebounded off his body.

Did you forget what Joker said? He told Luffy how long does he think he can keep that form up for.

Spoiler

Why did he even bring up the fact that Luffy couldn't stay in that form for too long? Clearly, he aimed to capitalize on the fact that if he stalled, Luffy would eventually be unable to sustain Gear 4th which would be the only chance he'd have of defeating Luffy head on. He had no intentions of taking a beat down..

Hell, if Luffy was so certain that he could defeat Joker with 1 more attack after Leo Bazooka; it means that if Luffy had been able to use Leo Bazooka and King Kong Gun before the 20 minutes ended which was as a result of Joker stalling, Joker would have been defeated. So, Joker really was running away from Luffy at that point, he couldn't match him head on or he'd have fought Luffy the exact same way he did while Luffy was in Gear 2nd.


You do know that the panel you showed Luffy beating up Joker, Joker hadn't even done damage to Luffy in 1on1 yet? The only instance before chapter 782 that Joker had the upper hand was in 2on1 as was also the same for Luffy.

Even this Athelete attack, you're not looking at it within the context simply to make out Joker as superior:

1. Luffy is in the air and his Bazooka attack misses.
2. Joker evaded and is more advantaged to counter attack especially with Luffy in the air.
3. Luffy realizes that he didn't get Joker while mid-way through going through with his kick, he switches to a defensive position.
   Spoiler

   

And was Luffy even hurt? No, he was about to retaliate until Trebol's snot subdued him; they were both well matched in Gear 2nd.

Doflamingo never bypassed Luffy's haki with his stings, if Joker's haki was superior to Luffy's, then the outcome in every single clash should never end in a stalemate.

Also, to say Luffy never hurt Joker is absurd and that's without even bringing up Red Hawk.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2015 ---

Gear 2nd does the same thing as Gear 4th, just to a greater degree, so what's the difference? It's not like Gear 4th is a rumble ball technique.

It has nothing to do with it being temporary, different abilities work different ways. You're blaming Luffy for capitalizing on the best way to best make use of his DF's abilities and claiming it to be a cheat when Joker can:

1. Control 1,000s of people at once without affect his stamina.
2. Suspend himself in Mid air.
3. Build a Birdcage that can't be cut and doesn't even affect his stamina.
4. Summon a clone that can fight on his behalf while he just sits and does nothing to his stamina.
5. Can use first aid on himself.
6. Can also turn an entire town into strings at no expenditure of stamina.

Yet, Joker is the one handicapped? This is a biased view on your part.

If the aim of Gear 4th is too surpass his limits, then enlighten me, what does Gear 2nd do that's any different because I'm at a loss for words right now.

Well, what about luffy's red hawk? Doflamingo took the attack and the manga immediately brushes it off. And so far that seems to be luffy's gear 2 strongest attack. With that in mind, I don't see how we can argue any punch luffy landed would do damage in that regard.

Ok, 20 minutes. It doesn't make a difference to my point. Even assuming luffy was deterring or otherwise avoiding luffy it does not make a difference to my point. If he could get such an advantage over luffy doing so little, then that adds to doflmaingo's strength. I don't see why this helps your point and it certainly does not take anything from mine. Regardless of why, doflamingo was simply not taking much damage from gear 2 punches. Luffy was never going to deal enough damage to with gear 2.

Ok, lets assume doflamingo was stalling. What difference does it make? Doflamingo doing this does not take anything away from him. In the end what we saw in the manga is that luffy's first run at gear 4 did not last enough to get luffy the win. The second run barely got a single punch in. Doflamingo fighting in the way you suggest, which is not even necessarily the case, does not support your point.

Of course I know the panel shows joker taking a few punches. That's precisely why I posted it, my point there was that even that would have failed to deal much damage to joker. Even luffy's red hawk was brushed off as ineffective.

Luffy was hurt after that.
http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-9.html
Look at the string's path. Isn't that luffy's blood? Doflamingo bypassed luffy's armored haki with his strings. And luffy wasn't about to retaliate anything, he would have flown well away from the castle had trebol not caught him. You can see trebol's mucus extending well away from the castle and then unstreching back.

And there is still no rational reason to think as the clone as two on one. It's a technique used by doflamingo that is controlled by doflamingo. It is simply a different use of his strings. As with any other manga, clones don't count as two on one, they count as generic techniques.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Luffy was hurt after that.
http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-783-page-9.html
Look at the string's path. Isn't that luffy's blood? Doflamingo bypassed luffy's armored haki with his strings. And luffy wasn't about to retaliate anything, he would have flown well away from the castle had trebol not caught him. You can see trebol's mucus extending well away from the castle and then unstreching back.

As if Joker didn't bleed too when punched by Luffy whilst defending with Hardened Armament?

Spoiler

And there is still no rational reason to think as the clone as two on one.

That's just simply an asinine concept that contradicts being logical, it's a 2 on 1 situation nonetheless. If an individual is not fighting 1 entity, then it's clearly not a 1on1 fight.

If 2 on 1 situations didn't give anyone the advantage, why don't all of Luffy's attempts at Joker (without his clone) end with Luffy just being punched in the face and unable to defend himself like with the clone?

And, it's as if you've forgotten that fights between high tiered characters can last for 5 days or more, do you think they're just staring at each other the entire time? It imples that their attacks wouldn't be able to guarantee instant defeat, it'd be a tedious process of wearing down the opponent which is no different to Luffy fighting Joker in Gear 2nd.

Luffy in Gear 2nd might not have defeated Joker within 30 minutes, however, neither would Joker be able to without resorting to his best techniques.

Maybe you didn't read what happened to Joker as soon as Luffy went into Gear 4th, none of Joker's physical attacks were going to do anything to Luffy.

At the end of it all:
You have to give illogical answers as to how Joker can be deemed superior to Luffy when he thwarted every attempt that Joker made at Law's life. If this doesn't imply that 2 individuals are somewhat evenly matched, then it's purely bias.

If your reasoning is this incoherent, then I'm pretty sure you believe that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh even though Rayleigh held his own and thwarted Kizaru's attempt to kill the SHs similarly to Luffy stopping Joker killing Law.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

So if Luffy uses his lifespan and push himself to the limits it's not his strength? It's cheating? Its his power!

Why put HxH in here? Gon can only use that power once in his lifetime but Luffy can use gear 4 many times. Gear 4th was never said to drain his life force btw it only drains haki. His mastery will only continue to increase. His lifepsan will only decrease if he use it excessively.

no!!! that is not the point!!!!!!! ARRGH!!! am i not explaining myself properly.
first off, the comparison is the same..the only difference is that HxH is a little more extreme. the principle is the same,
second "push himself to the limit" is incorrect....the correct statement is "push himself past his limits" which is exactly why gear 4th was created, and is exactly how it has been explained by doffy AND luffy, if it temporarily pushes him past his limits, then ok.....it is an undisputable power boost , and a damn huge one at that, but the fact that its temporary means that it isnt his power at all, so yeah..it is cheating in a sense, but thats irrelevant.


the accusations are that doflamingo cheated by fighting defensively is what im talking about....
here's another comparison....for those of you who watch/read prince of tennis
in a nutshell, sanada was stomping tezuka, until tezuka unveiled this new technique which forces any powerful shot from the opponent outside the court, at the expense of permanently breaking his arm and effectively ending his tennis career (but it doesnt work on weak shots or defensive plays), sanada was recklessly trying to face the technique head on until his captian recommended he do the obvious, and play defensively, and simply parry with him, until his arm breaks, and it damn well worked, the point is if you have to sacrifice to get that extra power which you DONT have, and if there is some drawback which can be easily exploited, then thats on you for being weak, so if doflamingo was intentionally waiting luffy out (although not at all running) then thats simply on luffy for being weak, that type of tactic wouldnt work against....i dont know.....
Kizaru's speed for example.... or...Whitebeard's groundbreaking (literally) strenght...because its within their limits of their actual power and definitely not temporary. these guys are fighting to kill each other, if luffy is fighting recklessly, then doflamingo isnt obligated to accomodate his recklessness, if luffy isn't strong enough, he gets his ass kicked, which was what almost happened, but fortunately, luffy was given a nice 10 minute rest, while doflamingo began slaughtering hundreds of townspeople.
its also what was happening until lucci turned his back on him instead of killing luffy on the spot, lucci had wrongly assumed that he had already won the fight and that was why he lost after luffy's will power gave him the extra energy (the very last bit of energy in his body, and leaving him on the verge of death) he was still objectively stronger than luffy. and left enies lobby in a MUCH better physical condition than luffy, only that luffy was slightly consious. while lucci got knocked out
...temporary solutions like the gears wont always help, would be great character development if luffy realizes this one day, if he hasn't already

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

no!!! that is not the point!!!!!!! ARRGH!!! am i not explaining myself properly.
first off, the comparison is the same..the only difference is that HxH is a little more extreme. the principle is the same,
second "push himself to the limit" is incorrect....the correct statement is "push himself past his limits" which is exactly why gear 4th was created, and is exactly how it has been explained by doffy AND luffy, if it temporarily pushes him past his limits, then ok.....it is an undisputable power boost , and a damn huge one at that, but the fact that its temporary means that it isnt his power at all, so yeah..it is cheating in a sense, but thats irrelevant.

Why isn't Gear 4th his power? What's the rationale behind this.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Why isn't Gear 4th his power? What's the rationale behind this.

when i say "his power" i basically mean "within the limits of his physical power" which gear 4th isn't, its stated as a way to temporarily allow him to gain an exponential boost in power, well past his own physical limits, which is why using it reduces his lifespan, because his body isn't as powerful as the techniques he uses. and thus when he uses these moves to gain power, there is permanent damage done to his internal organs, thus the "reduction of lifespan"

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

when i say "his power" i basically mean "within the limits of his physical power" which gear 4th isn't, its stated as a way to temporarily allow him to gain an exponential boost in power, well past his own physical limits, which is why using it reduces his lifespan, because his body isn't as powerful as the techniques he uses. and thus when he uses these moves to gain power, there is permanent damage done to his internal organs, thus the "reduction of lifespan"

So, Gear 2 wasn't his power because it hurt him?

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Gear 2nd does the same thing as Gear 4th, just to a greater degree, so what's the difference? It's not like Gear 4th is a rumble ball technique.

It has nothing to do with it being temporary, different abilities work different ways. You're blaming Luffy for capitalizing on the best way to best make use of his DF's abilities and claiming it to be a cheat when Joker can:

1. Control 1,000s of people at once without affect his stamina.
2. Suspend himself in Mid air.
3. Build a Birdcage that can't be cut and doesn't even affect his stamina.
4. Summon a clone that can fight on his behalf while he just sits and does nothing to his stamina.
5. Can use first aid on himself.
6. Can also turn an entire town into strings at no expenditure of stamina.

Yet, Joker is the one handicapped? This is a biased view on your part.

If the aim of Gear 4th is too surpass his limits, then enlighten me, what does Gear 2nd do that's any different because I'm at a loss for words right now.

If you're going to discredit Luffy for using his abilities the best way he can, then you have to discredit Joker and Kizaru amd every other DF user, or you're simply being biased.

What about Law being able to use an ability that eats one's internal organs without leaving external scars? Are you going to deem him weak for being "advantaged"?

ok...lets do this ONE MORE TIME
"you cant judge a persons strength without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then that's on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength.".
i dont give any shits about how much more powerful gear 4th makes him, the point is that the increase in strength was irrelevant, and part of the reason that its irrelevant is because it isn't his actual strength, its basically him fighting beyond the limits of his actual physical body, which is why doing so slowly kills him and drains his stamina faster, but the fact that it isn't his natural power , is why he cant maintain it for long, so saying "doflamingo was stalling because gear 4th was too powerful" is invalid here, because in any scenario , if something so powerful is so easily exploited by doflamingo (albeit him taking alot of damage) then at the end of the day, gear 4th turned out to be an ineffective move in that it did more damage to himself than to doffy. this isnt a plus for doffy, but its a minus for luffy, and rather exposes the fact that he really is too weak.
which is exactly what happened in the manga, with luffy acknowledging that doflamingo was handicapped before the fight, and still having to admit that he needed the country's help to beat doffy. i dont know why with luffy barely making the knockout , with all odds against doffy , that we are gonna say that luffy is stronger than doffy, if luffy by himself couldnt beat doffy in the first place.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

ww

So, Gear 2 wasn't his power because it hurt him?

and yes...gear 2nd is beyond luffy's actual limits aswell, just to a lesser extent, only that that fact doesn't become such a disadvantage.
gear 4th is just a little too ambitous

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

and yes...gear 2nd is beyond luffy's actual limits aswell, just to a lesser extent, only that that fact doesn't become such a disadvantage.
gear 4th is just a little too ambitous

You're simply discrediting Luffy for making the best use of his DF, then why won't you do the same for Joker? His ability doesn't drain his stamina and gives him great advantage over many DFs that do.

Or Fujitora, his ability allows him to control gravity and pull Meteoroids from the sky; with your analysis, I guess Fujitora is cheating.

Lucci is a Zoan DF user, Zoan DFs increase one's speed, strength and durability; doesn't that essentially make Lucci a cheat like Luffy?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

"you cant judge a persons strength without looking at weakness, and if a weakness is ultra specific, then that's on luffy, notice how doflamingo has none of these problems, or akainu, or whitebeard or sengoku.... the guys who fight within the limits of their own strength.".

So, your logic is if you push yourself to your limits or past your limits, you're cheating.

Have you head of mental fortitude or will power? It's the ability to push one's self past one's own limit, does that make that individual a cheat?

Have you ever done long distance running or any sort of sports? If you push yourself past your limits and beat your personal record, apparently you're a cheater?

If Sanji produced an attack that was so powerful it shattered his bones, does that mean Sanji cheated because he pushed himself past his limit?

You're making excuses to downplay Luffy's performance in order to credit Joker and discredit Luffy; thing is you'd be a hypocrite if it's okay for you to validate Joker using his abilities to the maximum potential (he's even mastered his abilities); while according to you, if Luffy uses his abilities to its maximum potential, it's cheating.

An example, 2 people decide to lift 100kg weight in the air for the longest time possible; person A keeps the weight lifted for 1 minute and person B keeps it lifted for 2 minutes injuring his shoulder in the process. Based on your logic, person B is cheating for pushing himself past his limit; it's an illogical way of thinking you're using to justify your bias.

Since Gear 4th is a part of his abilities like Gear 2nd, it is indeed his powerr and more so since it's a power that actually relies on his own stamina and strength.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You're simply discrediting Luffy for making the best use of his DF, then why won't you do the same for Joker? His ability doesn't drain his stamina and gives him great advantage over many DFs that do.

Or Fujitora, his ability allows him to control gravity and pull Meteoroids from the sky; with your analysis, I guess Fujitora is cheating.

Lucci is a Zoan DF user, Zoan DFs increase one's speed, strength and durability; doesn't that essentially make Lucci a cheat like Luffy?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

So, your logic is if you push yourself to your limits or past your limits, you're cheating.

Have you head of mental fortitude or will power? It's the ability to push one's self past one's own limit, does that make that individual a cheat?

Have you ever done long distance running or any sort of sports? If you push yourself past your limits and beat your personal record, apparently you're a cheater?

If Sanji produced an attack that was so powerful it shattered his bones, does that mean Sanji cheated because he pushed himself past his limit?

You're making excuses to downplay Luffy's performance in order to credit Joker and discredit Luffy; thing is you'd be a hypocrite if it's okay for you to validate Joker using his abilities to the maximum potential (he's even mastered his abilities); while according to you, if Luffy uses his abilities to its maximum potential, it's cheating.

An example, 2 people decide to lift 100kg weight in the air for the longest time possible; person A keeps the weight lifted for 1 minute and person B keeps it lifted for 2 minutes injuring his shoulder in the process. Based on your logic, person B is cheating for pushing himself past his limit; it's an illogical way of thinking you're using to justify your bias.

Since Gear 4th is a part of his abilities like Gear 2nd, it is indeed his powerr and more so since it's a power that actually relies on his own stamina and strength.

Mental fortitude doesnt push you past your limits....rather as people we never truly bring out our 100% in anything, all mental fortitude does is allow you to get in that extra bit of energy that you wouldn't reach for otherwise, its still well within the absolute physical limits of your body, and when the gap in strength is too big, mental fortitude isnt enough to fill it.
If sanji broke his bones in an attack, it wouldve been from the collision and not as a result of him actually moving his legs (meaning it was a result of his legs being too weak) , if he used the same attack into the air with no collision whatsoever, it wouldnt break his legs at all, so thats a very bad comparison.
for the weight lifting example, the difference is that, no changes were made to person B, he used his own strength, and he used it within his own limits, he didnt push past the absolute limits, because i guarantee you that an unlimited amount of mental fortitude would allow him to lift a train.
gear3rd involves adding to his bone mass by compressing air inside them (how the fuck did luffy come up with this idea?), while gear second invloves intense blood flow manipulation, for gear 2nd, it is still in luffy's actual limits, as blood flow acceleration is quite natural otherwise (adrenaline rush) but gear 4th invloves physically increasing his body mass by compressing air into his bones, then forcefully accelerating his bloodflow to supply the new mass, he practically forces his body to rearrange itself AND a few tons of compressed air (again, how the hell did luffy......luffy come up with this?) then he uses his rubber power to do some stuff that takes a physics student like myself to fully appreciate. Well fucking done luffy
the point is he forcefully changes his body into something which it isnt naturally, at the cost of tearing his cells apart, not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits"
the cheating thing was really just an analogy, to show how at the end of the day, its strength that he actually doesn't have, and luffy himself knows this well.that being said you ignored all my other points...so ill just repeat that luffy only won because doflamingo was handicapped , AND got a 10 minute rest when he ran out of haki, while DD was busy slaughtering he masses. only to deliver a final punch that rendered them both unable to move....sooo there
refute that, and tell me how luffy is still somehow stronger than the guy he couldn't actually beat regardless.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

the point is he forcefully changes his body into something which it isnt naturally, at the cost of tearing his cells apart, not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits"

That's an invalid reason, people cannot sprint at the speed used at a 100M race for long periods of time due to the build of of lactic acid which is a byproduct od anaerobic respiration. However, in the event that someone does do that which isn't impossible, why wouldn't it be attributed to their own power?

Just because something isn't practical doesn't mean it's unnatural. Luffy's body allows him to use Gear 2nd and 4th, why is it unnatural for him to incur side-effects from pushing himself?

That's like saying if someone tears their muscles in an attempt to do something spectacular that requires tremendous energy, it's cheating simply because they pushed their body.

You don't grasp the concept of mental fortitude or your bias is having you deny the fact that mental fortitude helps people push their body beyond natural limitations...

Calling it the 50/50/50, Los Angeles native Dean Karnazes ran 50 marathons in 50 U.S. states in 50 consecutive days, beginning with the Lewis and Clark Marathon in St. Louis on Sept. 17, 2006, and finishing with the New York City Marathon on Nov. 5.

Karnazes also ran 135 miles (217 km) nonstop across Death Valley in the Mojave Desert in temperatures reaching 120 degrees F (48 degrees C), and a marathon to the South Pole at minus 40 degrees F (minus 40 degrees C).

"It hurts so much and your body is saying stop, and you kind of override those mechanisms and force yourself to go on," Karnazes told news sources.
http://www.livescience.com/14048-amazing-superhuman-feats.html

And the notion that not being able to sustain a streinuous activity indefinitely means it's artifical is a nonsensical claim; according to this premise, someone sprinting for 5 minutes non-stop would be classed as "artificial", lol. You're actually criticizing Luffy for his metabolism playing a role and not being infinite and you're supposed to be a physics student or student of logic in other words.

Why isn't it "artificial" for Joker to be able to turn entire towns into strings to fight an individual, but it's artificial for Luffy to fight using Gear 4th?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

the cheating thing was really just an analogy, to show how at the end of the day, its strength that he actually doesn't have

Okay, so Joker too is using strength he doesn't have...

1. Does he have the strength of birdcage to avoid being cut by anything or being pushed back by an entire country + an Admiral?
   
2. Are his fists as powerful as God Sled?
3. Does he have the strength of himself + his clone fighting together even when fighting alone?

These artificial and "cheating" arguments can be made on behalf of any fruit user; these should be rhetorical questions, but Joker isn't that powerful without his abilities just like Luffy wouldn't be as powerful without his fruit.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

No!!! i give up..... hannibal isnt reading my posts :/
im sure injecting compressed air into your bones, and then forcefully hyper accelerating your metabolism, isn't at all artificial. and is as natural as someone jogging for 5 mins...just think about that for a while.I never said anything about sustaining streneous activity, don't strawman me, i said forcing your body to change itself by the process described above isn't natural, and i never said gear 2nd wasn't natural, that's an outright lie. i said the opposite.

i made the point that there is an undisputable absolute physical barrier, that mental fortitude cant bring you past...i stated that gear 2nd was actually within that barrier, i made the point that gear 3rd , and by association gear 4th is well outside that barrier. injecting compressed air into your bones is very much artificial, gear 4th is artificial...end of story
i dont know why you are telling me about pushing yourself to injury...that is still within the aforementioned absolute barrier, mental fortitude wouldn't make Usain bolt run at light speed, and im a damn Jamaican so i would know.

i fail to understand why you need to resort to strawmaning me..the arguments you want to refute arent the arguments i am proposing

and all of this fails to refute the statement
that being said you ignored all my other points...so ill just repeat that luffy only won because doflamingo was handicapped , AND got a 10 minute rest when he ran out of haki, while DD was busy slaughtering he masses. only to deliver a final punch that rendered them both unable to move....sooo there
refute that, and tell me how luffy is still somehow stronger than the guy he couldn't actually beat regardless.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

No!!! i give up..... hannibal isnt reading my posts :/
im sure injecting compressed air into your bones, and then forcefully hyper accelerating your metabolism, isn't at all artificial. and is as natural as someone jogging for 5 mins...just think about that for a while.I never said anything about sustaining streneous activity, don't strawman me, i said forcing your body to change itself by the process described above isn't natural, and i never said gear 2nd wasn't natural, that's an outright lie. i said the opposite.

i made the point that there is an undisputable absolute physical barrier, that mental fortitude cant bring you past...i stated that gear 2nd was actually within that barrier, i made the point that gear 3rd , and by association gear 4th is well outside that barrier. injecting compressed air into your bones is very much artificial, gear 4th is artificial...end of story
i dont know why you are telling me about pushing yourself to injury...that is still within the aforementioned absolute barrier, mental fortitude wouldn't make Usain bolt run at light speed, and im a damn Jamaican so i would know.

i fail to understand why you need to resort to strawmaning me..the arguments you want to refute arent the arguments i am proposing

and all of this fails to refute the statement
that being said you ignored all my other points...so ill just repeat that luffy only won because doflamingo was handicapped , AND got a 10 minute rest when he ran out of haki, while DD was busy slaughtering he masses. only to deliver a final punch that rendered them both unable to move....sooo there
refute that, and tell me how luffy is still somehow stronger than the guy he couldn't actually beat regardless.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015 ---

for completion.....i will add that the birdcage is a testament to doflamingo's power, i truly feel that the birdcage was draining power away from him, unless there is a double standard (as i said waaaay back). imagine if my suspicions are true, at the very least, he wouldve save d SOME energy from using it, so it must have SOME impact on the fight with luffy.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Gear 2, 3 and 4 is all natural just for Luffy because he is a rubberman. None of the other characters can do this even if they wanted to.

This is One Piece. Your logic will get you nowhere.

 

[Zehahaha]

No!!! i give up..... hannibal isnt reading my posts :/
im sure injecting compressed air into your bones, and then forcefully hyper accelerating your metabolism, isn't at all artificial. and is as natural as someone jogging for 5 mins...just think about that for a while.I never said anything about sustaining streneous activity, don't strawman me, i said forcing your body to change itself by the process described above isn't natural, and i never said gear 2nd wasn't natural, that's an outright lie. i said the opposite.

i made the point that there is an undisputable absolute physical barrier, that mental fortitude cant bring you past...i stated that gear 2nd was actually within that barrier, i made the point that gear 3rd , and by association gear 4th is well outside that barrier. injecting compressed air into your bones is very much artificial, gear 4th is artificial...end of story
i dont know why you are telling me about pushing yourself to injury...that is still within the aforementioned absolute barrier, mental fortitude wouldn't make Usain bolt run at light speed, and im a damn Jamaican so i would know.

i fail to understand why you need to resort to strawmaning me..the arguments you want to refute arent the arguments i am proposing

and all of this fails to refute the statement
that being said you ignored all my other points...so ill just repeat that luffy only won because doflamingo was handicapped , AND got a 10 minute rest when he ran out of haki, while DD was busy slaughtering he masses. only to deliver a final punch that rendered them both unable to move....sooo there
refute that, and tell me how luffy is still somehow stronger than the guy he couldn't actually beat regardless.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015 ---

for completion.....i will add that the birdcage is a testament to doflamingo's power, i truly feel that the birdcage was draining power away from him, unless there is a double standard (as i said waaaay back). imagine if my suspicions are true, at the very least, he wouldve save d SOME energy from using it, so it must have SOME impact on the fight with luffy.

But your arguments don't even make sense at all
His Gear techniques are application of his Gomu Gomu no Mi, if you consider them as " artificial ", then you should consider every single DF user as artificial power too while we're at it


He isn't strawmaning you, he is answering your flawed logic... I'm sorry but your argument doesn't make sense at all

DD wasn't busy slaughtering the masses, you think he couldn't catch up to Luffy if he was able to move ? DD himself could barely move after the Leo Bazooka, DD would've ignored those dumbasses and go straight for Gatz and Luffy but he didn't because he couldn't, and no Gear 4 was superior, Luffy could've delivered the final punch had he not wasted some time talking to some civilians after the first act of the fight, you do realize that right ? If he did, we wouldn't be arguing about this matter to begin with

Birdcage was draining shit, because it was never stated at all unlike for Luffy's gears for example, no you're just adding stuff from your own without any basis at all

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

No!!! i give up..... hannibal isnt reading my posts :/
im sure injecting compressed air into your bones, and then forcefully hyper accelerating your metabolism, isn't at all artificial. and is as natural as someone jogging for 5 mins...just think about that for a while.I never said anything about sustaining streneous activity, don't strawman me, i said forcing your body to change itself by the process described above isn't natural, and i never said gear 2nd wasn't natural, that's an outright lie. i said the opposite.

You implied that streinuous activity that can't be sustained is unnatural because you explicitly stated..

reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up,

People cannot sustain doing streinuous activities for long periods of time, you're essentially saying that anything done that can't be maintained indefinitely is artificial.

Luffy's body is rubber, you're a physics student; why shouldn't rubber be able to compress air within itself? Is that breaking the nature of rubber? It isn't, it's perfectly natural for rubber to act that way.

Joker's abilities are not natural:

1. Why Joker can use strings on his internal organs without actual surgery?
   
2. Can you explain why strings can scientifically connect to clouds?
3. Why buildings can spontaneously transform into strings?
4. How is being able to control thousands of strings with just 2 hands natural??
   
5. Joker isn't even physically as strong as the Birdcage itself, he's neither as durable or as unstoppable as the Birdcage.
6. Joker's fists are neither as powerful as God sled; his most powerful attacks rely on his DF's awakened powers rather than physical power.
   
7. Fujitora, Zoro and the entire colosseum fighters couldn't stop the Birdcage advancing, are you saying Joker is stronger than an Admiral + More?
   
8. Or a half dead Luffy is stronger than the entire Dressrosa put together in Gear 4th?
   
9. Why was it implied that the only way to stop the Birdcage was by defeating Joker? It implies the Birdcage is indestructable, however, Joker is not indestructable. Doesn't that imply that his abilities give him powers that far exceed his own physical durability and power?

If Gear 4th or any other Gear isn't reflective of Luffy's strength, then neither is Joker's abilities because they give him an advantage.

 

[kkck]

As if Joker didn't bleed too when punched by Luffy whilst defending with Hardened Armament?

Spoiler

That's just simply an asinine concept that contradicts being logical, it's a 2 on 1 situation nonetheless. If an individual is not fighting 1 entity, then it's clearly not a 1on1 fight.

If 2 on 1 situations didn't give anyone the advantage, why don't all of Luffy's attempts at Joker (without his clone) end with Luffy just being punched in the face and unable to defend himself like with the clone?

And, it's as if you've forgotten that fights between high tiered characters can last for 5 days or more, do you think they're just staring at each other the entire time? It imples that their attacks wouldn't be able to guarantee instant defeat, it'd be a tedious process of wearing down the opponent which is no different to Luffy fighting Joker in Gear 2nd.

Luffy in Gear 2nd might not have defeated Joker within 30 minutes, however, neither would Joker be able to without resorting to his best techniques.

Maybe you didn't read what happened to Joker as soon as Luffy went into Gear 4th, none of Joker's physical attacks were going to do anything to Luffy.

At the end of it all:
You have to give illogical answers as to how Joker can be deemed superior to Luffy when he thwarted every attempt that Joker made at Law's life. If this doesn't imply that 2 individuals are somewhat evenly matched, then it's purely bias.

If your reasoning is this incoherent, then I'm pretty sure you believe that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh even though Rayleigh held his own and thwarted Kizaru's attempt to kill the SHs similarly to Luffy stopping Joker killing Law.

Entity? The clone is no more an entity than luffy's leo bazooka. Seriously, the literal definition of entity is "a thing with distinct and independent existence.". The clone is not an independent being, it is a technique controlled directly by doflamingo whose existence depends entirely on him. The clone is merely a technique. Having a face, speech, being able to act simultaneously with doflamingo, none of those make it in any form or context different to, say, literally every other technique used by fighters in the manga. It's a technique that doflamingo has, that is the only relevant aspect there is to this.

As for the bold part, isn't that what I have been saying? That all of luffy's confrontations ended with luffy being the one pushed back and overwhelmed? The most luffy ever did was land a few punches but other than that it was him taking most of the damage and being pushed back. I mean, he was overwhelmed when doflamingo used the clone. He then landed a few punches but in turn was instantly pushed back with doflamingo cutting luffy's haki defense with his strings. In context that should only be plausible if doflamingo's haki was stronger than luffy's.Doflamingo did spit blood from luffy's armored punches however to be fair that was from inside his mouth which was probably not covered in haki. His haki covered parts seemed fine. And then before gear 4 he was overwhelmed yet again.

As far as gear 4, I have never said luffy at that point wasn't stronger and didn't have the advantage. My point here is that even though luffy is stronger with gear 4, it in fact does not last enough to beat joker. Luffy didn't win against joker because he was stronger than joker. He won because of all the help he had in the insane battle of attrition this was, he won because every single bit of damage doflamingo took counted. Luffy barely won against joker on his literal last breath. Doflamingo took every single punch luffy could throw at him anyways.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You implied that streinuous activity that can't be sustained is unnatural because you explicitly stated..

People cannot sustain doing streinuous activities for long periods of time, you're essentially saying that anything done that can't be maintained indefinitely is artificial.

ok..ill just copy and paste what i said
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up,"

Luffy's body is rubber, you're a physics student; why shouldn't rubber be able to compress air within itself? Is that breaking the nature of rubber? It isn't, it's perfectly natural for rubber to act that way.

Joker's abilities are not natural:

1. Why Joker can use strings on his internal organs without actual surgery? -this was temporary and artificial..supporting the claim that doflamingo was handicapped-
   
2. Can you explain why strings can scientifically connect to clouds? -out of context, i was referring to ways in which a person can gain strength which they don't already have, midbattle-
3. Why buildings can spontaneously transform into strings? -out of context, this is a testament of how doffy has mastered his ability-
4. How is being able to control thousands of strings with just 2 hands natural?? -way out of context, and you know this-
   
5. Joker isn't even physically as strong as the Birdcage itself, he's neither as durable or as unstoppable as the Birdcage. -there is no evidence for this claim, i was the one saying that the birdcage was actually draining doflamingo's strength, as otherwise there would be some double standard where combat strings aren't as powerful, and this is weapon use, which is different from transformation or hand to hand combat -
6. Joker's fists are neither as powerful as God sled; his most powerful attacks rely on his DF's awakened powers rather than physical power. -out of context and irrelevant, luffy is a purely physical fighter, his DF supports his fighting style, doflamingo is a more tactical fighter, as evident in his use of his DF, nonetheless his physical attributes easily combat gear 2nd and 3rd, and luffy is a purely physical fighter, what you fail to realize is that doflamingo is WEAPONIZING his strings, which defeats luffy's utilization of his DF, which is exactly what happened in the manga-
   
7. Fujitora, Zoro and the entire colosseum fighters couldn't stop the Birdcage advancing, are you saying Joker is stronger than an Admiral + More? -A plausible theory given the circumstaance and evidence-
   
8. Or a half dead Luffy is stronger than the entire Dressrosa put together in Gear 4th? - no...luffy was fighting ALONGSIDE the entire country, so it was gear4th luffy+dressrosa vs doflamingo, which barely made it anyways, so the logical conclusion is that Doflamingo>Luffy, you havent given any refutations.
   
9. Why was it implied that the only way to stop the Birdcage was by defeating Joker? It implies the Birdcage is indestructable, however, Joker is not indestructable. Doesn't that imply that his abilities give him powers that far exceed his own physical durability and power? -again, its weaponization, which is completely different from physical combat, regardless, the power of the birdcage begs the question, if that power could have been spared and used against luffy, which was one of my propositions-

If Gear 4th or any other Gear isn't reflective of Luffy's strength, then neither is Joker's abilities because they give him an advantage.
-you havent proven anything-

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

ok..ill just copy and paste what i said
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up,"

But your arguments don't even make sense at all
His Gear techniques are application of his Gomu Gomu no Mi, if you consider them as " artificial ", then you should consider every single DF user as artificial power too while we're at it


He isn't strawmaning you, he is answering your flawed logic... I'm sorry but your argument doesn't make sense at all

DD wasn't busy slaughtering the masses, you think he couldn't catch up to Luffy if he was able to move ? DD himself could barely move after the Leo Bazooka, DD would've ignored those dumbasses and go straight for Gatz and Luffy but he didn't because he couldn't, and no Gear 4 was superior, Luffy could've delivered the final punch had he not wasted some time talking to some civilians after the first act of the fight, you do realize that right ? If he did, we wouldn't be arguing about this matter to begin with

Birdcage was draining shit, because it was never stated at all unlike for Luffy's gears for example, no you're just adding stuff from your own without any basis at all

its not flawed logic, you simply didnt get the point
the gears isnt one of the abilties the gomu gomu no mi has, its not him using his DF power....its coincidental that his DF allows him to use, which is why there is a certain distinction for 'awakening' as something luffy hasn't achieved yet, despite the gears being so exponentially powerful, and one would think that luffy wouldve had enough control over his ability, but this isnt the case. The strings is something Doffy's DF directly grants him, gear 4th is a genius level improvisation but not directly related to the gomu gomu no mi. which is why i said artificial, and the terminology i use not being completely literal, as i explained how it was partly figurative.this was all to point out that the 'stalling' claim is bullshit, as if your power is exploitable, then it is weak, and gear 4th was too weak for him to beat doffy alone, even with the aforementioned handicapps.


as for kkck's points, if red hawk does actually do any damage, then a point blank red hawk will do alot of damage(which only landed because of laws help, and was effectively a sucker punch), this supports the fact that doffy was handicapped, as then the red hawk did injure him, and the string healing after the gamma knife was artificial, and therefore he was still very much injured, you seem to be attacking the specifics without looking at how everything still goes back to the fact that gear 4th wasnt enough to beat a handicapped doffy, so doffy>luffy.

 

[kkck]

ok..ill just copy and paste what i said
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"not to say that it isnt valid, just to say that it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up, even without attacking, thats a complete redefinition of the term "limits" "
"it was useless in the given scenario, reason being that it was so artificial that he couldnt keep it up,"

I don't get this part of the discussion in the least. It seems somewhat arbitrary. I mean, you can call gear 4 all those things and all... but even if you made up some definition by which gear 4 is all the things you mention, it bears absolutely no relevance to the actual discussion. As in, gear 4 being called fake or whatever for arbitrary reasons does not make a difference. There are two facts about gear 4 that are relevant:

1.- It provides luffy with a boost in power
2.- It has a time limit.

Thats it. Calling it fake or not luffy's whatever does not really add to the discussion, it just adds confusion to it.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

I don't get this part of the discussion in the least. It seems somewhat arbitrary. I mean, you can call gear 4 all those things and all... but even if you made up some definition by which gear 4 is all the things you mention, it bears absolutely no relevance to the actual discussion. As in, gear 4 being called fake or whatever for arbitrary reasons does not make a difference. There are two facts about gear 4 that are relevant:

1.- It provides luffy with a boost in power
2.- It has a time limit.

Thats it. Calling it fake or not luffy's whatever does not really add to the discussion, it just adds confusion to it.

hannibal was sying that waiting out luffy's time limit was cheap, i was saying that gear 4th was cheap, thats basically the sum of it

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

not to undermine gear 4th, just that he was trying to undermine the weakness of it, and i was explaining why it has that weakness, and thus why it is relevant in the luffy vs doffy comparison.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015 ---

also, he made an outright lie about what i said, so i had to correct it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

the gears isnt one of the abilties the gomu gomu no mi has, its not him using his DF power....its coincidental that his DF allows him to use

I think we'll call just agree to disagree here; this premise is too powerful for me to contribute constructively.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

The most luffy ever did was land a few punches but other than that it was him taking most of the damage and being pushed back. I mean, he was overwhelmed when doflamingo used the clone.

This was the only time he was overwhelmed along with when Luffy was fighting Joker Clone and Bellamy at same time; it was only ever in 2v1 situations that Joker clearly was dominant.

Besides that, they had their moments to shine.

Ultimately, if Rayleigh stopping Kizaru from killing the SHs prove that Rayleigh is at least equally as powerful as Kizaru, then, Luffy stopping Joker killing Law proves he's equally as strong as Joker.

However, you're going to say it proves nothing, then answer this:

• Could Luffy alone have protected his crew from being killed by Garp or even Sentoumaru if he were not equally strong enough? The answer should be no, it logically wouldn't make sense.

Another great example would be Marco:

• Could Marco have protected Luffy from Akainu without the aid of the entire WB fleet, Jinbei, Crocodile and Buggy? This should be a rhetorical question, but if Marco needed all these people to protect Luffy from Akainu, it's clear that because Marco isn't equally as powerful as Akainu, there's no way he possesses the individual power to protect Luffy from Akainu with that said.

Really, if you're going to stop an enemy all alone from killing an ally , then you'd logically have to be equally as powerful to be successful. It'd be illogical to claim that a weaker individual could stop a stronger individual from killing someone without aid.

• We can even take this to Impel Down; it took countless people to stop Magellan from trying to kill Luffy; if only multiple people could stop Magellan, how could 1 individual out of this group do so alone? It's a logical fallacy.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Yeah I think @Fuuji Genichiro has his own definition of what the gears are, which is honestly very weird.I think we can all agree that not all DFs are equal, heck there's even 3 different types. And each user is free to come up with his own techniques and use his DF in a way that suits his fighting style. Luffy has his gears, but DD can create clones and an entire birdcage with his. Not only that but he can suture himself, if anything that is cheating. Law's can fry other people's organs up.
So I can't see how Luffy using a gear which is a technique that uses the attributes of his DF is considered cheating.