Canon The conclusive Luffy vs DD thread

[I Am Atomic]

the gears isnt one of the abilties the gomu gomu no mi has, its not him using his DF power....its coincidental that his DF allows him to use

As Hannibal said; Lets agree to disagree with this statement.

Every person makes their own unique technique.

Highlighted in bold: Gomu Gomu no mi only give him the rubber ability and nothing else. All his fighting techniques are invented by himself. All of them!

 

[BASED Shinigami]

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that Luffy won because Gear Fourth made him insanely stronger than Doflamingo and he received help from others.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that Luffy won because Gear Fourth made him insanely stronger than Doflamingo and he received help from others.

If you mean when he was hakiless and had to run for a while, yeah sure. But I'm really not convinced that Law's gamma knife had such a huge impact, but that's my opinion and I stand by it.
In the end of the day what really defeated DD is Gear 4 which is vastly superior.More importantly if we compare it to the awakening it is also superior.So even now I don't think it will be a prerequisite for Luffy to attain the awakening. He'll prolly continue to use the gears who are his more powerful techniques, unless the awakening manages to make him stronger similar to Gear 4. And Luffy can prolly work on Gear 4's limits, by better controlling his use of Haki. I really don't see why some are complaining about Luffy's life span, frankly he already lost a few years because of Ivankov's hormones back in ID, so it prolly doesn't change much if Luffy's gears shorten his life span.Kureha is pretty old, so it's not impossible for humans in the OP world to live a long life, more than 50 years for example. It simply means that Luffy won't reach 60 or 70 years, which shouldn't really concern us now.
As long as he can find the One Piece and not die right after it shouldn't be a problem....

 

[BASED Shinigami]

If you mean when he was hakiless and had to run for a while, yeah sure. But I'm really not convinced that Law's gamma knife had such a huge impact, but that's my opinion and I stand by it.
In the end of the day what really defeated DD is Gear 4 which is vastly superior.More importantly if we compare it to the awakening it is also superior.So even now I don't think it will be a prerequisite for Luffy to attain the awakening. He'll prolly continue to use the gears who are his more powerful techniques, unless the awakening manages to make him stronger similar to Gear 4. And Luffy can prolly work on Gear 4's limits, by better controlling his use of Haki. I really don't see why some are complaining about Luffy's life span, frankly he already lost a few years because of Ivankov's hormones back in ID, so it prolly doesn't change much if Luffy's gears shorten his life span.Kureha is pretty old, so it's not impossible for humans in the OP world to live a long life, more than 50 years for example. It simply means that Luffy won't reach 60 or 70 years, which shouldn't really concern us now.
As long as he can find the One Piece and not die right after it shouldn't be a problem....

Yes that's exactly what I meant. He received timely help from the Gladiators while he recharged his Haki. As far as the Gamma Knife issue, I believe it initially had a big impact. Doflamingo was supposed to die after that, but he mitigated the damage done to him so he could keep fighting. I would agree that Gear Fourth is superior to Doflamingo's Awakening. He simply failed to do any damage to Luffy while the latter was using Gear Fourth. I don't think we will see Luffy using Awakening anytime soon. It's too early and it doesn't look like Luffy has completely refined his new gear technique. Isn't Luffy still a teen? I'm not too concerned about his lifespan. A lot of the big shot pirates in One Piece are in their 40s and 50s. Luffy will probably continue to live for several more decades.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---

I would mostly attribute Luffy's win to his Gear Fourth technique. 65% Gear Fourth and 35% Law & Gladiators.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Thing is, if Gamma Knife had a huge impact:

• Why did Counter Shock which was applied after Gamma knife not worsen Joker's conditoin, it was used shortly after.
• Why wasn't he at least coughing blood through-out his fight with Luffy? an attack that eats up one's internals should be showing visible signs of detoriation.
• Why are Joker's internal organs intact if his organs are only being held by strings? He's chained in Kairoseki, it should be impossible to use his abilities.

Because none of these occur, it means the Gamma Knife was a short-lived attack that simply required first aid, or Joker would have been in a worse condition.

The time that elapsed from Gamma knife to Luffy using Gear 4th couldn't have spanned no longer than 5-10 minutes, Joker was defeated 30 minutes after Gear 4th; if Gamma knife were so severe, 40 minutes of constant fighting should not be enough time for such a fatal injury to heal except it really wasn't that life-threatening.

Also, concerning any help that Luffy got; under the premise that Gamma Knife was not that effective, Law's main role was leveling the situation (defeating Trebol) to make it a 1on1 situation for Luffy against Joker.

Once Luffy used Gear 4th, Joker stalled because he knew Luffy was straining himself. As a result of stalling, Luffy needed 10 minutes to recover and help from the colosseum fighters; it does make up for Joker's underhanded tactic imo.

Joker stalled and had been barricading himself with strings in order to avoid getting into a hand to hand fight with Luffy.

Spoiler

The panel above even shows Luffy scream at Joker's strings to "get out his way"; that virtually proves that Joker was stalling, or Luffy really shouldn't be saying that.

Luffy would have been able use Leo Bazooka and King Kong Gun before his 20 minutes of Gear 4th ran out if Joker never stalled; this would have guaranteed his victory. Things didn't go that way, so i think it's fair to at the very least regard the entire fight as even.

Anyway, I'd leave it at that for now anyway.

 

[BASED Shinigami]

Thing is, if Gamma Knife had a huge impact:

• Why did Counter Shock which was applied after Gamma knife not worsen Joker's conditoin, it was used shortly after.
• Why wasn't he at least coughing blood through-out his fight with Luffy? an attack that eats up one's internals should be showing visible signs of detoriation.
• Why are Joker's internal organs intact if his organs are only being held by strings? He's chained in Kairoseki, it should be impossible to use his abilities.

Because none of these occur, it means the Gamma Knife was a short-lived attack that simply required first aid, or Joker would have been in a worse condition.

The time that elapsed from Gamma knife to Luffy using Gear 4th couldn't have spanned no longer than 5-10 minutes, Joker was defeated 30 minutes after Gear 4th; if Gamma knife were so severe, 40 minutes of constant fighting should not be enough time for such a fatal injury to heal except it really wasn't that life-threatening.

Also, concerning any help that Luffy got; under the premise that Gamma Knife was not that effective, Law's main role was leveling the situation (defeating Trebol) to make it a 1on1 situation for Luffy against Joker.

Once Luffy used Gear 4th, Joker stalled because he knew Luffy was straining himself. As a result of stalling, Luffy needed 10 minutes to recover and help from the colosseum fighters; it does make up for Joker's underhanded tactic imo.

Joker stalled and had been barricading himself with strings in order to avoid getting into a hand to hand fight with Luffy.

Spoiler

The panel above even shows Luffy scream at Joker's strings to "get out his way"; that virtually proves that Joker was stalling, or Luffy really shouldn't be saying that.

Luffy would have been able use Leo Bazooka and King Kong Gun before his 20 minutes of Gear 4th ran out if Joker never stalled; this would have guaranteed his victory. Things didn't go that way, so i think it's fair to at the very least regard the entire fight as even.

Anyway, I'd leave it at that for now anyway.

Let me get this straight. You're saying Doflamingo proceeded to stall Luffy until the latter exhausted himself from using Gear Fourth?

Also, notice how I said Gamma Knife had a huge impact INITIALLY. I do not believe the technique had a huge effect on Doflamingo AFTER he proceeded to stitch himself up.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

I think it is quite amazing that the Doflamingo vs Luffy fight is still causing so much controversial disagreement. It's funny reading all these posts. People have such strong opinions. It seems like quite a few posters are struggling to stay objective.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Let me get this straight. You're saying Doflamingo proceeded to stall Luffy until the latter exhausted himself from using Gear Fourth?

Also, notice how I said Gamma Knife had a huge impact INITIALLY. I do not believe the technique had a huge effect on Doflamingo AFTER he proceeded to stitch himself up.

In essence, because he did taunt Luffy about how long he could sustain that form for.

Initially, I'd agree it had an impact, but not huge since it was short lived; I don't think it made any more or less of an impact than Red Hawk did; both were supposed to be finising moves and neither were capable.

 

[BASED Shinigami]

In essence, because he did taunt Luffy about how long he could sustain that form for.

Initially, I'd agree it had an impact, but not huge since it was short lived; I don't think it made any more or less of an impact than Red Hawk did; both were supposed to be finising moves and neither were capable.

To me, stalling would imply Doflamingo consciously accepted the fact he could not overcome Luffy's Gear Fourth technique so he decided to stall until Luffy was no able to maintain that form. In other words, he accepted the fact that Luffy was superior. However, this is problematic because it doesn't really fit Doflamingo's character profile. Despite the fact that he was taking a beating from Luffy, I'm certain Doflamingo as arrogant as he is thought he could still overcome Luffy by using Awakening.

I'm not sure Red Hawk was utilized as a finishing move at the beginning of the fight. Didn't Law immediately warn Luffy not to get too cocky because he knew Luffy's attack would only cause superficial damage to a fully healthy Doflamingo? Maybe I'm wrong. I have to read that chapter again. I think Gamma Knife had more of an impact but this is all just my opinion.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

.doflamingo didnt 'stall' because he thought that luffy was superior, doflamingo is more of a semi-tactical fighter, he simply noticed tht the incredible gain of strength was temporary, and he exploited it, id rather think it is unfair to say that doflamingo should accomodate luffy's weakness in a fight to the death. And when luffy leaves himself with such an obvious weakness, doflamingo is obliged to take advantage of it

as i said, fighting isnt just about brazen reckless attacking, you have to have stamina, damage threshold, mental fortitude, as wonderful as gear 4th is at face value, you cant say 'its stronger than awakening' just because doflamingo was somewhat cornered . tanking and minimising damage while the opponent runs out of energy is a common battle tactic, in any type of fight. even in boxing.

Also having more raw power doesn't imply superiority, since raw power isn't the only variable involved, without the help of an entire country, raw power would fail anyway. You cant simply measure the pro's withtout looing at the cons and say "for this specific period of time, luffy's physical attributes were above that of doflamingo's) without looking at the specifics of the situation and at the overall bigger picture, and the bigger picture shows luffy taking a nice 1o minute nap

taking advantage of your opponents weakness is a part of fighting, if luffy leaves himself with a weakness, then doffy isnt strong to take advantage of it i admit, but does it makes luffy a weakling to have it.

 

[BASED Shinigami]

Exploiting means deriving some benefit or gaining some type of advantage over someone or something. Doflamingo didn't gain any advantage due to Luffy using Gear Fourth. He surmised that the technique must be taking a toll on Luffy's body, but he had no way of knowing how long Luffy would able to maintain that form. Doflamingo was getting his behind kicked at that point, so he was forced to use Awakening to counter Luffy's Gear Fourth technique. By using Awakening all he did was prevent himself from getting knocked out sooner. For twenty minutes he used his strings to kill Luffy and failed miserably. After Gear Fourth ran out, Doflamingo still failed to kill Luffy while the latter was in a weakened state.
I would address all your other points but I'm sleepy and tired.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

To me, stalling would imply Doflamingo consciously accepted the fact he could not overcome Luffy's Gear Fourth technique so he decided to stall until Luffy was no able to maintain that form. In other words, he accepted the fact that Luffy was superior. However, this is problematic because it doesn't really fit Doflamingo's character profile. Despite the fact that he was taking a beating from Luffy, I'm certain Doflamingo as arrogant as he is thought he could still overcome Luffy by using Awakening.

I don't think it's problematic, Joker is not stubbornly arrogant; have to bare in mind he had a lot to lose if he were defeated, he was desperate. We saw how he behaved against 2 Admirals:

• He wanted to kill Smoker, but Aokiji didn't allow him and said he'd have to make ammends to his plan.

To me, it seems Joker would adapt his plans regardless of his arrogance being that he's a realistic individial; he's serving under a Yonko after all, if he couldn't bare the thought of being weaker than someone, he probably wouldn't be working for Kaido or clearly expressing his fear for him.

 

[dark123]

You don't understand one thing.
Luffy in his G2 and G3 was weaker but it came from actual experience and strength of Haki. Luffy still has to learn a lot about haki.
So Luffy G2 and G3 could even fight against Doflamingo for many days but at the end he would be defeated because Joker had his awakening and simply was more experienced in using haki.
If we talk about G4. G4 is I would say admiral class power but If we have someone like Joker near admiral class level you have to first master this power.
So even if Luffy G4 was far stronger than Joker, Joker would still win because thanks to his experience and intelligence he could simply wait for Luffy to run out of gas.
So there are 2 conclusions.
Full power Luffy(G4 still not mastered) vs Full power Joker - Joker winner thanks to his experience
Full power Luffy (G4 Mastered) vs Full power Joker- Luffy complete winner
Oh and after seeing G4 we can say that it is close to awakening or maybe early stage, because Luffy was able to bounce his attacks from air. It looked like he turned air into rubber.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Oh and after seeing G4 we can say that it is close to awakening or maybe early stage, because Luffy was able to bounce his attacks from air. It looked like he turned air into rubber.

Luffy is using Geppou/Sky walk. I don't think it's awakening. He uses his strong legs and spring like legs to kick air.

 

[dark123]

Luffy is using Geppou/Sky walk. I don't think it's awakening. He uses his strong legs and spring like legs to kick air.

I am not talking about this. I am talking about moment when his fist changed direction. As you can see his moving arm is bouncing from air. So he had to change air into rubber to bounce his arm. Well i think Luffy doesn't know that it is early stage of awakening. Luffy developed his weak fruit quite a lot so it should be natural that he stands at the beginning of awakening.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Thats not awakening but he is using haki plus his rubber ability to stretch and contract his arm and body. This is the reason his arm could change direction. Doflamingo himself said this btw.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

I am not talking about this. I am talking about moment when his fist changed direction. As you can see his moving arm is bouncing from air. So he had to change air into rubber to bounce his arm. Well i think Luffy doesn't know that it is early stage of awakening. Luffy developed his weak fruit quite a lot so it should be natural that he stands at the beginning of awakening.

Spoiler: DD's explanation

Last 2 panels.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Exploiting means deriving some benefit or gaining some type of advantage over someone or something. Doflamingo didn't gain any advantage due to Luffy using Gear Fourth. He surmised that the technique must be taking a toll on Luffy's body, but he had no way of knowing how long Luffy would able to maintain that form. Doflamingo was getting his behind kicked at that point, so he was forced to use Awakening to counter Luffy's Gear Fourth technique. By using Awakening all he did was prevent himself from getting knocked out sooner. For twenty minutes he used his strings to kill Luffy -no, according to hannibal, he was stalling- and failed miserably. After Gear Fourth ran out,-mission complete- Doflamingo still failed to kill Luffy while the latter was in a weakened state.
-this is bullshit, simply surviving and getting luffy into that weakened state was an advantage, thus he did exploit G4, on the other hand, the reason he didnt kill luffy was because anyone who wasnt pushing away the birdcage, was fighting doflamingo, so in essence, as i stated the fight was luffy+G4+Dressrosa, and after all that, with them BARELY making it, how could anyone then conclude that luffy>doflamingo?, thats not even a non sequitor, its plain contradictory. if luffy needed the country's help to beat doflamingo, who was already handicapped, then how is luffy not inferior, otherwise why would he need help?-
I would address all your other points but I'm sleepy and tired.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

Luffy is using Geppou/Sky walk. I don't think it's awakening. He uses his strong legs and spring like legs to kick air.

this is basically moonwalk except he has changed his shape into a plane to fly faster and smoother, i think luffy is actually a genius beneath the layers of stupid.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015 ---

from what i understand the main and only legitmate point from the opposition was that while in gear 4th luffy had the upper hand, that still doesnt imply superior, as doffy still exploited it anyway. and if stalling is cheap, then blame gear 4th for being cheap and exploitable. and stop looking at doffy as some kind of coward.

 

[I Am Atomic]

this is basically moonwalk except he has changed his shape into a plane to fly faster and smoother, i think luffy is actually a genius beneath the layers of stupid.

Isn't that what I said? Any need to repeat it again?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

from what i understand the main and only legitmate point from the opposition was that while in gear 4th luffy had the upper hand, that still doesnt imply superior, as doffy still exploited it anyway

Faulty logic, it's like saying that Caesar is stronger than Luffy, Smoker and Tashigi combined because he knocked them out.

Caesar exploited his ability to create a vacuum, it doesn't make him stronger or superior to Luffy and Smoker combined, just cunning. In the end, we saw how Luffy dealt with him, he was no Hody Jones.

Luffy is physically superior, Joker is more advantaged.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Faulty logic, it's like saying that Caesar is stronger than Luffy, Smoker and Tashigi combined because he knocked them out.

Caesar exploited his ability to create a vacuum, it doesn't make him stronger or superior to Luffy and Smoker combined, just cunning. In the end, we saw how Luffy dealt with him, he was no Hody Jones.

Luffy is physically superior, Joker is more advantaged.

no..the example you gave explains my point clearly, just the weakness in the vacuum move is that its range is short, and luffy took advantage of that, doflamingo realised that G4 has a short time limit, and he took a advantage of it. just because luffy cant fight the vacuum directly doesn't mean he is weaker than CC, and just because doffy cant fight G4 directly doesnt mean he isnt superior to luffy, its just a move, and if it doesnt work, then its an ineffective move, just mean the person using it is weak to rely on it. as is with luffy, if luffy is relying on gear 4th (last resort move and all) and it ends up being ineffective (10 minute rest) then it means luffy is weak to have nothing left. you guys just gush over the pure raw power of G4 without looking at how exposed luffy was.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

also, even if luffy is physically stronger, it doesn't mean superior as a fighter, im glad you understand it. Luffy's moves are based on increase his physical strength and speed, which at base, is still well below doflamingo's , doflamingo is a different type of fighter, but a superior one.

 

[dark123]

If you mean when he was hakiless and had to run for a while, yeah sure. But I'm really not convinced that Law's gamma knife had such a huge impact, but that's my opinion and I stand by it.
In the end of the day what really defeated DD is Gear 4 which is vastly superior.More importantly if we compare it to the awakening it is also superior.So even now I don't think it will be a prerequisite for Luffy to attain the awakening. He'll prolly continue to use the gears who are his more powerful techniques, unless the awakening manages to make him stronger similar to Gear 4. And Luffy can prolly work on Gear 4's limits, by better controlling his use of Haki. I really don't see why some are complaining about Luffy's life span, frankly he already lost a few years because of Ivankov's hormones back in ID, so it prolly doesn't change much if Luffy's gears shorten his life span.Kureha is pretty old, so it's not impossible for humans in the OP world to live a long life, more than 50 years for example. It simply means that Luffy won't reach 60 or 70 years, which shouldn't really concern us now.
As long as he can find the One Piece and not die right after it shouldn't be a problem....

Actually G4 is not using his life force. Well of course G2 was burden to his body because it affected his heart, his vessels and so on but G4 is different. He only overuses his haki. Well thanks to that we found out that haki can be overused. We clearly saw that his mind somehow became slow So overused haki affects mind working

Thats not awakening but he is using haki plus his rubber ability to stretch and contract his arm and body. This is the reason his arm could change direction. Doflamingo himself said this btw.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

Spoiler: DD's explanation

Last 2 panels.

Contraction here means that he can make rubber harder or softer but it is impossible to change completely direction of objects midair if they are expanding. It was clearly shown by clouds and sfx that his arm changed direction because it bounced from air. But how it bounced from air? Air had to be made bouncy like his body was so for me it looks like some kind of early stage of awakening because it affects only small parts of surroundings close to his body.