Canon The conclusive Luffy vs DD thread

[Fuuji Genichiro]

Actually G4 is not using his life force. Well of course G2 was burden to his body because it affected his heart, his vessels and so on but G4 is different. He only overuses his haki. Well thanks to that we found out that haki can be overused. We clearly saw that his mind somehow became slow So overused haki affects mind working


Contraction here means that he can make rubber harder or softer but it is impossible to change completely direction of objects midair if they are expanding. It was clearly shown by clouds and sfx that his arm changed direction because it bounced from air. But how it bounced from air? Air had to be made bouncy like his body was so for me it looks like some kind of early stage of awakening because it affects only small parts of surroundings close to his body.

no, gear 4th is actually a combination of both gears, with the extra bonus of adding haki to his rubber abilities, usually, the hardened area dont strecth, but now he uses hardeneing to increase the tensile strength (basically the strength of the rubber), so he basically pushes everything he has into overdrive

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2015 ---

also, didnt see the last part, but contraction means to internally collapse,
ok, ive thought about it, and i at first thought it was just basic torque changing the direction by pulling one side of his arm back and the other side of his arm forward,, but then his arm would curve and not do a sharp turn , (also human muscles would need a frame (with joints to trun) to be able to contract around, and the arm bones dont allow such freedom, even if he made them into rubber, they would only allow him to curve his arm and not do a sharp turn- this was edited in) so i understand why you would think its his arm bouncing off the air,but its basically him stiffening the area's (using haki!) where the arm turns, then applying enough torque directly above that spot, imagine strecthing a rubber band against a table, and then pinning it down near the end (this is where the haki comes in!!) , then continuing to stretch it in a new direction above the area it is pinned, if luffy hardens the corners to act like a pivot for the turn then it is possible, which means he has to use concentrate haki on the corners when he wants it to change direction, since human muscles and bones arent built to allow that type of contraction, so in a sense it isnt muscle contraction at all, or it could be, and he's using hardening as a skeletal structure to turn around)

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

no..the example you gave explains my point clearly, just the weakness in the vacuum move is that its range is short, and luffy took advantage of that, doflamingo realised that G4 has a short time limit, and he took a advantage of it.

You're making an error:
Even Whitebeard wouldn't be able to fight without Oxygen, anyone would have to move away from Caesar if he created a Vacuum. That's not really exploiting a weakness, it's a fundamental part of life, one needs to breathe for respiration to take place. Thing is Luffy had no option but to create distance between himself and Caesar, key word being "no option".

Joker wasn't exploiting a weakness of Gear 4th, he was running away. Are you saying that Joker had to keep his distance from Gear 4th? The fact is he didn't, so he was running away and stalling. Joker could have chosen to fight Gear 4th like he did Gear 2nd, but he didn't, why?

It's not like he couldn't breathe when within close proximity of Gear 4th or there was a Sea-stone like effect; he chose to stay away due to the brute power of it.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You're making an error:
Even Whitebeard wouldn't be able to fight without Oxygen, anyone would have to move away from Caesar if he created a Vacuum. That's not really exploiting a weakness, it's a fundamental part of life, one needs to breathe for respiration to take place. Thing is Luffy had no option but to create distance between himself and Caesar, key word being "no option".

Joker wasn't exploiting a weakness of Gear 4th, he was running away. Are you saying that Joker had to keep his distance from Gear 4th? The fact is he didn't, so he was running away and stalling. Joker could have chosen to fight Gear 4th like he did Gear 2nd, but he didn't, why?

It's not like he couldn't breathe when within close proximity of Gear 4th or there was a Sea-stone like effect; he chose to stay away due to the brute power of it.

Ok, Whitebeard needs oxygen, with lungs powerful enough to cool akainu's magma like a birthday candle, so it wouldn't at all change the battle, i don't see how that changes anything, its still a powerful technique with a weakness, which was exploited, how important or damaging it is quite frankly doesn't matter, its still the same principle, an otherwise unbeatable move.....unless you take advantage of its inadequacies which defines both scenarios, also, 'stalling' is quite different from 'running away' , you have to pick one, and you cant just define fighting defensively as 'stalling' or 'running away' to fit your narrative, nor can you call it 'cheap' as an argument. Whatever you call it is your own subjective opinion which has no bearing on the facts . the fact being that likewise, ceasar's vacuum isnt something luffy can challenge directly, so instead, he ran away from it and fought him differently, like how doflamingo, simply blocked all of gear fourth attacks. luffy running out of stamina midfight is his own weakness, and that weakness makes him inferior to doflamingo, regardless of how temporary boosts like gear 4th might look at face value, you cant simply, look at a situation where luffy seems to have the upper hand, without looking at the bigger picture, where it was always doflamingo with the actual advantage, which you yourself stated. Stamina is just as relevant as strength in battle, which luffy lacks, doflamingo is a more rounded fighter...which makes him superior. The the of them fought one on one, with doflamingo being handicapped beforehand, which luffy ended up needing the entire country to ...i dont know.... stall for ten minutes, so while doffy was slaughtering the masses without rest, luffy was taking a nice long nap, and after all that, he still barely made it, and after the punch, both fighters fell to the ground unable to move, and unconscious, and after all that, a debate has to be opened to justify me saying that doflamingo is superior?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Ok, Whitebeard needs oxygen, with lungs powerful enough to cool akainu's magma like a birthday candle, so it wouldn't at all change the battle, i don't see how that changes anything, its still a powerful technique with a weakness, which was exploited,

An exploit is something that doesn't need to be done to do an activity of any sort, it's merely a underhanded way of doing something to make it easier.

A Vacuum is not an exploit, breathing is a fundamental part of life. It's like saing that Sanji fighting a Fishman in water and then escaping is an exploit, it's not, humans can't survive without oxygen.

1. Could Joker have fought Luffy in hand to hand combat like in Gear 2nd? Yes.
   
2. Did he? No. So, he was running away and stalling.

Joker exploited the fact that Gear 4th could only last for a period of time because he couldn't face it head on.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

thats not the definition of exploit, nor does the definition of underhanded describe what doffy was doing, he wasnt being dishonest, he wasnt using tricks, and he was using only his own physical power

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2016 ---

An exploit is something that doesn't need to be done to do an activity of any sort, it's merely a underhanded way of doing something to make it easier.

A Vacuum is not an exploit, breathing is a fundamental part of life. It's like saing that Sanji fighting a Fishman in water and then escaping is an exploit, it's not, humans can't survive without oxygen.

1. Could Joker have fought Luffy in hand to hand combat like in Gear 2nd? Yes.
   
2. Did he? No. So, he was running away and stalling.

Joker exploited the fact that Gear 4th could only last for a period of time because he couldn't face it head on.

fighting head on isn't the only legitimate way of handling a fight, and it isn't underhanded to to exploit your opponents weaknesses, Vacuum wasn't an exploit, well, actually it is, as it exploits the need for humans to breathe in air, which is a human weakness, as demonstrated by fishmen who are in that sense superior. And underhanded isn't in the definition of exploit, so is effectively the same thing. But i wasn't refering to it that way, i was comparing vacuum to gear 4th, in how its it is a very powerful move but there are ways to beat it indirectly.....luffy didnt beat CC by taking Vacuum head on, he would have lost, is CC then actually stronger because luffy only won because of an exploit, or did he win because when he was superior otherwise , unlike with gear 4th, luffy avoided vacuum completely.

Not fighting a specific move or ability head on isnt cowardly or underhanded, the ability gear 4th might be more powerful than all of doffy's abilities i admit, and there is a chance we strill haven't seen the extent of doflamingo's abilities, but assume we did, just because the abilty is more powerful doffy's abuility does not mean that luffy overall is superior to doffy, since the move as a whole has been sucsessfully countered

just for completion i checked the definition of stalling and it is also incorrect, stalling sugeests a waste of time by doing effectively nothing, which doesnt apply, doflamingo was actively tring to restrain , slow down, and tire luffy with his strings, which is how he fights REGARDLESS of who it his, just that he decided to focus less on directly attacking, and defended more, and this was after he made the observation that reckless attacks made him vunerable, so he adjusted his fighting stlye, luffy did this against CC and fought from a longer range, so if luffy is stronger than doflamingo, then CC is stronger than luffy
or...just maybe..its the other way around

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

fighting head on isn't the only legitimate way of handling a fight

You're dodging the question, was there anything stopping Joker from fighting Luffy in hand to hand like he did while in Gear 2nd? Yes or no would do.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

You're dodging the question, was there anything stopping Joker from fighting Luffy in hand to hand like he did while in Gear 2nd? Yes or no would do.

let me quote what you said:

Could Joker have fought Luffy in hand to hand combat like in Gear 2nd? Yes.

You answered the question yourself, making it rhetorical, and thus a statement. You didn't ask me any question, but if you want to ask me now, then yes, he could have fought luffy like he did against gear 2.

Stop stalling and address the points i made.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Contraction here means that he can make rubber harder or softer but it is impossible to change completely direction of objects midair if they are expanding. It was clearly shown by clouds and sfx that his arm changed direction because it bounced from air. But how it bounced from air? Air had to be made bouncy like his body was so for me it looks like some kind of early stage of awakening because it affects only small parts of surroundings close to his body.

I already did tell you how it is possible or should I say I copied what Doflamingo thought was happening. Haki is his will so luffy can command it it to be where he likes it be. As Fuji said above he can change the concentration of haki at one point which can allow him to change the direction completely.

Your point of Luffy's awakening does not have any solid facts backing you up so I find it hard to believe even if it's true. Sorry.

 

[tony p]

Luffy's Haki in Gear 4 can only stand 10 minute first, then he needs to rest and he is using gear 4 1 minute after using a great move.
Not to mention DD used energy for the birdcage, kicking Law's ass, fighters during the 10 min recovery etc etc

So if Luffy has to fight Jack or one of Kaido's calamities, where strong stamina is one of their strength, I don't see Luffy able to stand against them.
Unless Luffy shows some new skills, he will be defeated.

Maybe he can manage a better form in gear 4 or upgrade to gear 5 later in the manga... ? awakening ...

 

[BASED Shinigami]

I don't think it's problematic, Joker is not stubbornly arrogant; have to bare in mind he had a lot to lose if he were defeated, he was desperate. We saw how he behaved against 2 Admirals:

• He wanted to kill Smoker, but Aokiji didn't allow him and said he'd have to make ammends to his plan.

To me, it seems Joker would adapt his plans regardless of his arrogance being that he's a realistic individial; he's serving under a Yonko after all, if he couldn't bare the thought of being weaker than someone, he probably wouldn't be working for Kaido or clearly expressing his fear for him.

Well, I respect your interpretation despite the fact that I disagree. I think it is more plausible to say Doflamingo wasn't trying to temporarily stall Luffy while use Awakening but was desperately trying to kill him regardless of how long Luffy could remain in that form. The stalling narrative only works if Doflamingo believes his Awakening would not be able to overcome Luffy's Gear Fourth technique. However, this notion is not consistent with what actually happened. We see Doflamingo actually calling Luffy a baby immediately after initiating Awakening. http://www.mangainn.me/manga/chapter/135602_one-piece-chapter-785/page_11 Is Doflamingo implying here that his own technique is inferior to Luffy's so he's going to stall Luffy until the latter exits his form? I doubt it. Doflamingo is saying my abilities are still greater than yours, and I'm going to kill you. This is a more rational interpretation of the fight.
Also, Doflamingo doesn't work for Kaido. This would mean Doflamingo is Kaido's subordinate even though the former was a warlord allied to the WG. None of the Seven Warlords work for the Yonko according to my knowledge. They work for the WG. Those two merely have a business agreement as far as we can tell. One party sells and the other party buys.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

i think i already gave an explaination as to how luffy's arm could change indefinatley, by contracting at an haki made pivot, meaning he stiffens the corner area, and then contracts around it, like an artifical skeleton made from haki. simple physics here

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2016 ---

and thread is going a little off topic, can we call the debate won already?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

i think i already gave an explaination as to how luffy's arm could change indefinatley, by contracting at an haki made pivot, meaning he stiffens the corner area, and then contracts around it, like an artifical skeleton made from haki. simple physics here

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2016 ---

and thread is going a little off topic, can we call the debate won already?

I wonder whose fault it is...

Well if we all pretty much agree that Luffy in his Gear 4 was indeed stronger than DD period then yeah we could say the debate is won. And we simply can't ignore the fact that it was mainly that that allowed Luffy to beat DD. And overall Luffy when he's using Gear 4 is superior to DD, who never managed to scratch him during the time he was using it, although again it is limited.
And while it is limited right now we can be sure Luffy will manage to make it last longer in the future, maybe even "master" it as the story progresses.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

I wonder whose fault it is... -mine i guess-

Well if we all pretty much agree that Luffy in his Gear 4 was indeed stronger than DD period then yeah we could say the debate is won. And we simply can't ignore the fact that it was mainly that that allowed Luffy to beat DD. And overall Luffy when he's using Gear 4 is superior to DD, who never managed to scratch him during the time he was using it, although again it is limited.

-he didn't beat doflamingo, the fight between luffy and doffy individually was drawn, since both fighter fell unconscious after the last punch, the winner of a fight isn't decided by who throws the last punch, it is decided by who is left standing,

Also , you arent being fully objective when you say things like what you said above, despite earlier mentioning this:

If you mean when he was hakiless and had to run for a while, ...

which at no point in the fight was doflamingo given that luxury.I noticed that everyone here has to disregard the 10 minute rest, as if it isn't important, as if it doesn't PROVE, that doflamingo is superior, as if at that point, if both fighters were fighting one on one , and completely ignoring my belief that doffy was handicapped, and say that the same fight had happened in a more isolated area, that luffy wwouldnt have officially lost the fight at that point. If luffy is superior to doffy, then why does he need help from an entire country for 10 minutes to barely make it knocking him out.
You cant judge strength without looking at weakness, it is an important factor, and simply having more raw power is useless, if you dont have the stamina to maintain it.
so saying

And overall Luffy when he's using Gear 4 is superior to DD

still fails when you stop lying to yourselves and admit that gear 4th by itself still couldn't beat doflamingo regardless, which is why you word the entire statement like this

I wonder whose fault it is...

Well if we all pretty much agree that Luffy in his Gear 4 was indeed stronger than DD period then yeah we could say the debate is won. And we simply can't ignore the fact that it was mainly that that allowed Luffy to beat DD. And overall Luffy when he's using Gear 4 is superior to DD, who never managed to scratch him during the time he was using it, although again it is limited.
And while it is limited right now we can be sure Luffy will manage to make it last longer in the future, maybe even "master" it as the story progresses.

if gear 4th was superior to doflamingo, then it would have beaten doflamingo, without needing help from anything or anyone (this is basic logic), which is the exact opposite of what happened, so yeah, physically stronger, but not superior, overall superiority takes everything else into account, which you milady didn't take the time to fully acknowledge. *would insert random cheeky statement, but i remembered the last time -_-

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

then yes, he could have fought luffy like he did against gear 2.

So there was nothing stopping Joker from Fighting G4 Luffy the way he fought G2 Luffy, that essentially means that he was stalling, or there wouldn't have been a need to change tactics to one where he kept his distance and more so after saying that Luffy couldn't sustain G4 for too long.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

-he didn't beat doflamingo, the fight between luffy and doffy individually was drawn, since both fighter fell unconscious after the last punch, the winner of a fight isn't decided by who throws the last punch, it is decided by who is left standing,

Also , you arent being fully objective when you say things like what you said above, despite earlier mentioning this:


which at no point in the fight was doflamingo given that luxury.I noticed that everyone here has to disregard the 10 minute rest, as if it isn't important, as if it doesn't PROVE, that doflamingo is superior, as if at that point, if both fighters were fighting one on one , and completely ignoring my belief that doffy was handicapped, and say that the same fight had happened in a more isolated area, that luffy wwouldnt have officially lost the fight at that point. If luffy is superior to doffy, then why does he need help from an entire country for 10 minutes to barely make it knocking him out.
You cant judge strength without looking at weakness, it is an important factor, and simply having more raw power is useless, if you dont have the stamina to maintain it.
so saying

still fails when you stop lying to yourselves and admit that gear 4th by itself still couldn't beat doflamingo regardless, which is why you word the entire statement like this


if gear 4th was superior to doflamingo, then it would have beaten doflamingo, without needing help from anything or anyone (this is basic logic), which is the exact opposite of what happened, so yeah, physically stronger, but not superior, overall superiority takes everything else into account, which you milady didn't take the time to fully acknowledge. *would insert random cheeky statement, but i remembered the last time -_-

Lol classic, throwing the fault on someone else for being offtopic.

You're not making any sense, no in fact you are contradicting yourself, as seen here:

Luffy is the one left standing. Right there. Maybe if you'd re-read those chapters, you'd know that DD is the one unconscious, while Luffy was the one left standing.It's not a double K.O.And looks like he's not too harmed .The only damage he sustained really came from the wounds he already had before fighting DD, and once when DD impaled him with the awakened strings. And the fact that he had to rest for so long is solely due to Luffy's use of Gear 4 that made him exhausted.While DD received a couple of injuries, including one to the head from GEAR 4.

Oh I'm being completely objective, no one should be able to claim that Gear 4 had no effect whatsover on DD.That is a false statement.In the end DD was defeated by the King Kong Gun, not Gamma knife, not Counter shock or anything of the sort. So it is really Gear 4 that defeated him.

So Luffy rested 10 minutes, big deal.Let me remind you that the 10 minutes are mutual, meaning that DD also rested for about 10 minutes, as he didn't fight anyone who could be a challenge for him and his awakening. Not Law, not Cavendish, not Zoro.If he had faced one of those guys then maybe it can be said that DD wasn't resting. He was just walking around casually dealing with fodder, and toying with Viola and Rebecca.The 10 minutes were a break from the fight, and both opponents benefited from it.

Nah you're the one who doesn' t want to face the fact that he's not making much sense. So what defeated DD, if it's not Gear 4?

You see that's the thing, you think Law really helped, but that's not true.Because while the Gamma knife should have normally killed DD on the spot, he was able to stitch himself back and seemingly continue to fight.So we're back to the original debate, of whether Luffy won on his own or not.And since I think we already discussed that in depth, I don't see the point of dragging this talk further.

And since I'm the original poster I get to decide if this thread served its purpose or not.Looks to me it did, because we'll just continue to say the same stuff all over again. On top of that people are getting offtopic for no reason, and there's only a few who believe that Luffy isn't stronger than DD, SO unless you have something new to add, that hasn't already brought up, or isn't offtopic I'd suggest you move on to something else.

 

[dark123]

Well Luffy is not stronger
We can say he has power far stronger than Joker but he can not use it constantly and it makes him weaker.
If he master G4 we can clearly say that he is admiral lvl because destruction caused by G4 was admiral class so this way he will be stronger than Joker. For now we can say that he had power that made him stronger but at the end he won thanks to other factors because he still can not use this power freely.
That's inevitable conclusion and we can close this thread.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Moderator Notice:
Yes it seems we've met a dead end. The thread is closed for now. If this topic is brought up again we can discuss it here, rather than in the chapter discussion.~ ladylola