Year Round The Football/Soccer Thread v2

[FrostyMouse]

All right, that's fair.

I'm rooting for Dortmund to win the CL this year, as they play great attacking and counterattacking football. I don't really care that much about "pretty" football, I'm more a results oriented guy. I dislike Barca not because they win, but because of how all the commentators act, their bandwagon hopping fans, and their refusal to play more than one style.

Personally, I prefer great defensive/counterattacking football to pretty passing. Zidane's France team wasn't the best attacking side in the world, but they were amazing defensively, and when you added in Zidane and Henry's sparks, it was what you needed. Trezeguet was overrated. :P

Do you remember that great CL SF tie that Chelsea lost (were robbed by UEFA) to Barca? It's Chelsea's fault for not attempting to really score goals, but when you have four really good penalty claims and the ref looks to have been paid off by UEFA, what can you do? That was probably the best tie, even though we lost, that I'd ever seen. The best defensive team in the world against the best offensive team and it was sparkling with great displays of offense and defense from both sides. It ended up being quite ironic that we lost to Barca in the SFs when we were arguably the better side, but won when we were the far inferior team.

How I wish that we still had that Chelsea side, because we'd probably beat everyone in Europe at the moment.

 

[BBB Banana]

lol

I'm a lot more okay with that. You just can't support both Liverpool and Juventus. It would be like a person saying, "I support both Madrid and United."

I support more than one club in Brazil

Off course only one is my main club (santos) but I also support Coritiba and Atletico Paranaense which are rivals btw. I support these two mainly because they are from my state.

In europe I support Chelsea, Porto and Barça.

But my favorite clubs in all of the world are Porto and Santos.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Okay, that's fair, I guess.

Maybe I'm more attached to the American viewpoint of having one favorite team, although there are teams that you like to see do well, but they're not teams you actively support.

So, Banana, in terms of the Chelsea vs Barca CL SF last season, where did you stand?

 

[Hardy]

Okay, that's fair, I guess.

Maybe I'm more attached to the American viewpoint of having one favorite team, although there are teams that you like to see do well, but they're not teams you actively support.

So, Banana, in terms of the Chelsea vs Barca CL SF last season, where did you stand?

You don't support any American team?

 

[xi0]

Okay, that's fair, I guess.

Maybe I'm more attached to the American viewpoint of having one favorite team, although there are teams that you like to see do well, but they're not teams you actively support.

So, Banana, in terms of the Chelsea vs Barca CL SF last season, where did you stand?

I echo this. However, when it comes to separate leagues it can't really apply, unless the teams are clear rivals on the European or South American level. Maybe if you aren't attached to one league club necessarily you can also pull for more than one team. I don't really have a club I support like I do in other sports here. It just isn't the same.

 

[BBB Banana]

Okay, that's fair, I guess.

Maybe I'm more attached to the American viewpoint of having one favorite team, although there are teams that you like to see do well, but they're not teams you actively support.

So, Banana, in terms of the Chelsea vs Barca CL SF last season, where did you stand?

Well I love football over all the little fights so I guess that's why I feel like supporting many teams. If a team plays well and I like to see them play I could become a suporter.

I was rooting for Chelsea that one time.

 

[FrostyMouse]

You don't support any American team?

No, of course I do, but those are in American sports. I've been a Patriots and a Yankees fan all my life, although I'm getting kind of jaded about the Yankees.

 

[Imperium]

No, of course I do, but those are in American sports. I've been a Patriots and a Yankees fan all my life, although I'm getting kind of jaded about the Yankees.

I think he meant football.

The Euro thing is bollocks. But I will reserve judgement (hah!) until they release more info. Imagine the impact on the fans having to constantly travel between cities over a much larger area.

 

[xi0]

No, of course I do, but those are in American sports. I've been a Patriots and a Yankees fan all my life, although I'm getting kind of jaded about the Yankees.

What Imp said...

But I think an important component of sports fandom here is the local/regional thing. We have DC United close, but I dislike rooting for DC teams and regardless of how I feel about a team, I just won't have the same attachment to them unless they're local.

 

[FrostyMouse]

I think he meant football.

The Euro thing is bollocks. But I will reserve judgement (hah!) until they release more info. Imagine the impact on the fans having to constantly travel between cities over a much larger area.

Yeah, I know, but I refuse to admit that the MLS is actually a sport. Any soccer league that originally did not have draws and used some screwy goalscoring system does not count as being legitimate. As a result, there's no MLS team that I care about.

Yeah, it would really mean that the fans might not be able to see their team in action, and while it's really fun for teams in smaller countries to be able to see Euro matches, I don't like it at all. As you said, there could be a silver lining somewhere that we haven't heard about yet, but from what I know so far, it sounds terrible.

What Imp said...

But I think an important component of sports fandom here is the local/regional thing. We have DC United close, but I dislike rooting for DC teams and regardless of how I feel about a team, I just won't have the same attachment to them unless they're local.

See above, Gary. :P

Yeah, I can agree with that. For me, the Patriots and the Yankees are the nearest sports teams for me. The nearest MLS teams would be the Revolution or the Red Bulls, but as I said above, I couldn't give two shits either way about the MLS.

 

[Imperium]

That's quite an elitist view you have about the MLS. Surely you see the merits in supporting football in the US?

 

[xi0]

If MLS changed and actually gave a full-fledged acknowledgement to the pyramid system, as well as promotion/relegation with MLS then it's something I could see myself caring more about. But since the league insists on operating the way every other sports league here does, it just doesn't seem legit at all.

That being said, I guess it's baby-steps, if that's what they're working towards. Beckham coming here has done a lot for attendance, more teams have been added, many soccer-specific stadiums have been built in comparisons to where the league was before he signed with the Galaxy. You're competing for airtime here though, and it'll be a difficult task for the league to maintain the media attention it got without him playing in the league anymore.

---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------

That's quite an elitist view you have about the MLS. Surely you see the merits in supporting football in the US?

It is and it isn't. The problem is MLS just doesn't operate the way every other league does. It makes no sense. Promotion and Relegation is a very foreign concept to us here. It doesn't exist in any other sport. The idea of a shitty MLB team being relegated to AAA and the best AAA team being promoted to MLB is just mind-boggling

But because of this insistence, it just doesn't seem like a genuine product. That and the fact that more of the teams aren't independently owned. But they're working on that.

 

[FrostyMouse]

If MLS changed and actually gave a full-fledged acknowledgement to the pyramid system, as well as promotion/relegation with MLS then it's something I could see myself caring more about. But since the league insists on operating the way every other sports league here does, it just doesn't seem legit at all.

That being said, I guess it's baby-steps, if that's what they're working towards. Beckham coming here has done a lot for attendance, more teams have been added, many soccer-specific stadiums have been built in comparisons to where the league was before he signed with the Galaxy. You're competing for airtime here though, and it'll be a difficult task for the league to maintain the media attention it got without him playing in the league anymore.

Yeah, the absence of promotion and relegation means that you can be an awful team and you won't lose anything, which really makes the MLS seem less legitimate. A lot of teams have been added, a whole bunch of soccer-specific stadiums have been added (instead of teams just playing in NFL stadiums, although a lot still do, such as how the Revolution play at Gillette), and the average salary is more than double what it was before Beckham came, but there's still no avenue to eventual success.

It is and it isn't. The problem is MLS just doesn't operate the way every other league does. It makes no sense. Promotion and Relegation is a very foreign concept to us here. It doesn't exist in any other sport. The idea of a shitty MLB team being relegated to AAA and the best AAA team being promoted to MLB is just mind-boggling

But because of this insistence, it just doesn't seem like a genuine product. That and the fact that more of the teams aren't independently owned. But they're working on that.

Imagine if we could get rid of the Royals. :P

Some of the independent league teams have joined the MLS though, such as Seattle and Portland, but overall, as Gary said, there's still no real change and no real future for the MLS.

Football in the US is never going to really hit it off, especially as it has to compete against the four major sports in the US. I think ESPN posted some report saying that there was only a tiny viewership for the Euros, and even though they show all of the matches, they're just not that popular. Barely anyone watches the Saturday/Sunday morning kickoff Premier League match, except for the hardcore fans such as myself.

 

[Imperium]

It is and it isn't. The problem is MLS just doesn't operate the way every other league does. It makes no sense. Promotion and Relegation is a very foreign concept to us here. It doesn't exist in any other sport. The idea of a shitty MLB team being relegated to AAA and the best AAA team being promoted to MLB is just mind-boggling

But because of this insistence, it just doesn't seem like a genuine product. That and the fact that more of the teams aren't independently owned. But they're working on that.

Is there enough interest for a pyramid system? Hell you two are football fans and are not about to watch the red bulls play galaxy, thats not going to change if they swap the crap around at the bottom of the table. There is a better chance they will get even more viewers if its played to a system that is familiar rather than something totally alien. Once it has a stable and large enough fanbase then they can maybe look into making a pyramid system. I read its now the third most attended sport overtaking the NHL, so it's growing bigger every year.

---------- Post added at 05:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 AM ----------

Football in the US is never going to really hit it off, especially as it has to compete against the four major sports in the US. I think ESPN posted some report saying that there was only a tiny viewership for the Euros, and even though they show all of the matches, they're just not that popular. Barely anyone watches the Saturday/Sunday morning kickoff Premier League match, except for the hardcore fans such as myself.

Well to be honest, your average joe who already watches the NFL, the NBA maybe a little baseball in the summer (or any combination thereof) is not about to give a bit more space to some sport being played across the world that is at odd times and does not really cater to him. There needs to be a connection for a casual viewer, and the battleground are those guys. Football leagues in Europe are not remotely interested in doing that which is why it really has to happen with the MLS or it wont happen at all.

 

[xi0]

Is there enough interest for a pyramid system? Hell you two are football fans and are not about to watch the red bulls play galaxy, thats not going to change if they swap the crap around at the bottom of the table. There is a better chance they will get even more viewers if its played to a system that is familiar rather than something totally alien. Once it has a stable and large enough fanbase then they can maybe look into making a pyramid system. I read its now the third most attended sport overtaking the NHL, so it's growing bigger every year.

Frosty's view of it is skeptical, and maybe realistic. But I think there's a ton to be optimistic about. We're still miles ahead of where we used to be.

I don't really know the ratings on the Euros, but I do think my TV market had the highest rating. The World Cup is pretty popular, the UEFA CL Final is advertised a ton, and last year networks competed over rights to the El Clasico. MLS is entirely ESPN though, unless you live in a market with a team. The key to any sport being popular is it being on broadcast TV and that isn't happening just yet.

Maybe we're just spoiled by watching better leagues, I don't know. It's strange, but because there's no visible professional presence in the country, the best athletes aren't playing the game. There's really no reason why an American Soccer league couldn't be the among the best, most competitive leagues in the world. Right now, what is it? Is it even in the top 10 in that regard? Maybe just barely...

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

Well to be honest, your average joe who already watches the NFL, the NBA maybe a little baseball in the summer (or any combination thereof) is not about to give a bit more space to some sport being played across the world that is at odd times and does not really cater to him. There needs to be a connection for a casual viewer, and the battleground are those guys. Football leagues in Europe are not remotely interested in doing that which is why it really has to happen with the MLS or it wont happen at all.

The foreign leagues may not be catering to us, but the networks looking for the next big moneymakers are. We already have two soccer-specific cable networks, Fox Soccer and GOL TV, the latter being simulcasted in Spanish and English. ESPN and FOX have fought over broadcast rights a lot, airing PL and CL matches. ESPN/ABC have had the rights to the last two World Cups, will have 2014 and then it will change hands over to FOX for the next two. If people are fighting over it, it's a good sign. Ten years ago soccer had next to no media presence here. With the expansion of digital cable, satellite tv, and of course the Internet, the sport has boomed here. The idea that I could wake up and watch Sunderland play Chelsea tomorrow morning on basic cable was nonsense 10 years ago.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Is there enough interest for a pyramid system? Hell you two are football fans and are not about to watch the red bulls play galaxy, thats not going to change if they swap the crap around at the bottom of the table. There is a better chance they will get even more viewers if its played to a system that is familiar rather than something totally alien. Once it has a stable and large enough fanbase then they can maybe look into making a pyramid system. I read its now the third most attended sport overtaking the NHL, so it's growing bigger every year.

Well, no, there's not enough interest for a pyramid system, but American sports don't use a pyramid system anyway, so it would be even more alien for American viewers. You turn on an MLS match and the commentators will be talking about how a game that ended up 5-4 with absolutely woeful defending was awesome. Americans love offense, so the commentators act as if high scoring affairs are actually good. Don't get me wrong, high scoring affairs can be quite entertaining, but that's when the attacking play is great, not because the defending is so awful that it's not funny.

I don't really know how many people go to NHL games anyway, and with all the lockouts that it's had the last 15 years, it's been losing more and more viewership. Plus, unlike how you can watch NFL, MLB, and NBA games for free, all NHL games must be paid for with a special package, like how Sky charges an arm and a leg for English viewers to watch the Premier League. There are sports packages that the tv corporations sell to show you all of the games per week (for actually very decent prices, usually), but we get a certain number of games per week free, usually dictated by the area you live in. For example, every week, unless it's a special game like the Patriots vs Rams in London this year, I get to watch the Patriots play free of charge. I think the fact that NHL isn't free at all also hurts the viewership.

Well to be honest, your average joe who already watches the NFL, the NBA maybe a little baseball in the summer (or any combination thereof) is not about to give a bit more space to some sport being played across the world that is at odd times and does not really cater to him. There needs to be a connection for a casual viewer, and the battleground are those guys. Football leagues in Europe are not remotely interested in doing that which is why it really has to happen with the MLS or it wont happen at all.

Yeah, I'm not going to deny that. Another problem is that there's no incentive to go and play football in the US when you're a kid. Sure, we've been expanding youth leagues and all of that and we have more children involved, but we don't have any large national development programs or anything, and there aren't club-run academies or anything. If you're an athletically gifted child, there's much more incentive to go play basketball, American football, or baseball than to try your hand at football. It's just how it is in the US with the finances involved. I'm sure that we have the people who could go on to be football stars, but just not enough people play football at a young age and therefore don't get into it.

Gary, imagine if LeBron were a CF. A nice big, strong target man who has great movement.

The US has probably five decent players in the world, Tim Howard, Brad Friedel, Oguchi Onyewu, Dempsey, and Landon Donovan (even though he's horribly overrated by American commentators). Without any great offensive or defensive players, we can't do anything on the world stage, so there's no way to really bring national attention to football.

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

Perhaps Gary's right and I am too jaded. :P

I do know that in the last six years (basically since the 2006 World Cup), football coverage in the US has really expanded. We've gotten to see more football than every before, and as Gary said, the idea of watching a Premier League match on a Saturday morning would've been unbelievable 10 or so years ago.

 

[xi0]

It's a topic for another thread, but the NHL is free. They have a game of the week every weekend and are broadcast on local channels. That's how the Capitals are treated here anyways

You can't watch every game for free in any sport. They have packages for all four of them.

---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------

We do have a pyramid system here for purposes of organizing teams into different tiers by the USSF, the issue is there isn't promotion or delegation between said tiers.

 

[FrostyMouse]

It's a topic for another thread, but the NHL is free. They have a game of the week every weekend and are broadcast on local channels. That's how the Capitals are treated here anyways

You can't watch every game for free in any sport. They have packages for all four of them.

Really? I've never seen a Rangers or Islanders game on tv. Yeah, it is for a different thread though.

Yeah, I know, I mentioned that, but free games do help viewership and once you've watched it, you'd be more inclined to buy packages.

We do have a pyramid system here for purposes of organizing teams into different tiers by the USSF, the issue is there isn't promotion or delegation between said tiers.

Yeah, but as you said, it's not worth mentioning.

 

[xi0]

Yeah, I'm not going to deny that. Another problem is that there's no incentive to go and play football in the US when you're a kid. Sure, we've been expanding youth leagues and all of that and we have more children involved, but we don't have any large national development programs or anything, and there aren't club-run academies or anything. If you're an athletically gifted child, there's much more incentive to go play basketball, American football, or baseball than to try your hand at football. It's just how it is in the US with the finances involved. I'm sure that we have the people who could go on to be football stars, but just not enough people play football at a young age and therefore don't get into it.

Gary, imagine if LeBron were a CF. A nice big, strong target man who has great movement.

The US has probably five decent players in the world, Tim Howard, Brad Friedel, Oguchi Onyewu, Dempsey, and Landon Donovan (even though he's horribly overrated by American commentators). Without any great offensive or defensive players, we can't do anything on the world stage, so there's no way to really bring national attention to football.

The incentive is that it's cheap compared to other sports. Just look at equipment costs.

A 6'8" target man? Assuming he could stay healthy and would have the coordination then yes...that would be frightening.

We have many decent players, that's sort of an exaggeration. You don't play professionally unless you're decent. I think you meant a "world-class" player, to that I would agree. Thought Gooch hasn't been much for the national team...but whatever. I'd also include Michael Bradley in that list, though he doesn't have the resume the rest have.

---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

Really? I've never seen a Rangers or Islanders game on tv. Yeah, it is for a different thread though.

Yeah, I know, I mentioned that, but free games do help viewership and once you've watched it, you'd be more inclined to buy packages.



Yeah, but as you said, it's not worth mentioning.

Yeah, but you don't live in their markets right? I would say you'd be closer to the Bruins or Sabers right? I don't know, Caps games are on basic cable here.

Yeah, that's why I said it's key for it to get on Broadcast TV. It has happened before, but it is not on a regular basis. I think the PL premiers have been on FOX the last two years and occasionally you'll see a PL match on FOX on Saturday or Sunday. NBC now has some national MLS rights I think for NBC Sports, so maybe they'll end up on NBC as well.

I'm not sure if on what end it would be on the cause and effect flowchart, but the national team getting better and maintaining a good international ranking would do a lot for the popularity here. I think it would be easier for the sport to gain more attention if this happens. I don't see the league getting better on it's own merit.

 

[FrostyMouse]

The incentive is that it's cheap compared to other sports. Just look at equipment costs.

A 6'8" target man? Assuming he could stay healthy and would have the coordination then yes...that would be frightening.

We have many decent players, that's sort of an exaggeration. You don't play professionally unless you're decent. I think you meant a "world-class" player, to that I would agree. Thought Gooch hasn't been much for the national team...but whatever. I'd also include Michael Bradley in that list, though he doesn't have the resume the rest have.

It's not as if baseball or basketball aren't cheap though. Of course you do need to spend more over time, but...

I think LeBron would be able to stay healthy.

I don't consider any American player truly "world-class," although Dempsey would be the closest to that moniker of any of our players.

Onyewu has had some success on the club level, especially this season where he's been a big part of why Malaga won their CL group. Michael Bradley plays for Roma, right?

Yeah, but you don't live in their markets right? I would say you'd be closer to the Bruins or Sabers right? I don't know, Caps games are on basic cable here.

Yeah, that's why I said it's key for it to get on Broadcast TV. It has happened before, but it is not on a regular basis. I think the PL premiers have been on FOX the last two years and occasionally you'll see a PL match on FOX on Saturday or Sunday. NBC now has some national MLS rights I think for NBC Sports, so maybe they'll end up on NBC as well.

I'm not sure if on what end it would be on the cause and effect flowchart, but the national team getting better and maintaining a good international ranking would do a lot for the popularity here. I think it would be easier for the sport to gain more attention if this happens. I don't see the league getting better on it's own merit.

I don't technically live in any market, per se. I'm 200-250 miles from all four NHL teams (Sabres, Bruins, Rangers, and Islanders), so while that should logically put me in the market of some NHL team, as I'm a New York State resident, I should get at least one of them, but I don't somehow.

Yeah, it is. FOX has been starting to get more games and they do have Fox Soccer as well. I think that they showed a Liverpool match or two (hours after the original broadcast) on FOX this year. There's also Bein Sports which shows a lot of English and Spanish football, as well as some Ligue 1 stuff. Right now, they're showing a Championship match from last weekend, I believe.

The national team has been getting worse, so it hasn't been helping anything. :P