The Iwanin Thread

[Saithan]

awesome thanks... I'm still green and get confused very fast when the text is complicated.

 

[Anax]

Well, I heard "kumite" is full contact fights in Karate or other bare fisted (perhaps not just bare fisted) martial arts. There was even a movie with Jean Claude Van Damme posing as a kumite champion who could knock people out in some 5 seconds...

Hope, that was helpful

 

[Muk]

Hey Iwanin, whats up XD

which you like more?
naruto or mizoushou High? XD

when is the next mizoushou high chapter coming out? Lol

Its your fault you got me hooked on this echii manga
its good though

 

[Iwanin]

Well, I heard "kumite" is full contact fights in Karate or other bare fisted (perhaps not just bare fisted) martial arts. There was even a movie with Jean Claude Van Damme posing as a kumite champion who could knock people out in some 5 seconds...

Hope, that was helpful

Well, here's the definition I based my explanation on:

空手で、攻防の型を実際に相手と対して行うこと。

Karate de, koubou no kata wo jissai ni aite to tai shite okonau koto.

In Karate, to execute attack and defense forms (katas) against an actual opponent.

Now for the analysis of the original sentence...

組み手で筋肉をつければ、純粋に武術に必要な筋肉だけがつくだろう。

組み手で - Kumite de - with/through/using "Kumite"
筋肉をつければ - kinniku wo tsukereba -  if you traing/work/strengthen/whatever your muscules

So, we have: "If you train your muscles through Kumite..."

Troublesome here is the verb tsukeru. It's one of those verbs (like "kakeru", "tatsu", etc.) which has so many meanings you basically just have to go by the context.

純粋に武術に必要な筋肉だけがつくだろう

純粋に - junsui ni - "purely", "distilled-ly", "unadultered-ly"
武術に - bujutsu ni - "to Martial Arts/Wushu/Bujutsu"
必要な - hitsuyou-na - "necessary"
筋肉 - kinniku - "muscles"
だけ - dake - "only".
が - ga - indicates subject.
つくだろう - propositional form of da + "tsuku", intransitive form of tsukeru.

Thus "Only those muscles necessary to Wushu shall grow stronger (unadultered)".  "Darou" is basically used here to indicate that the muscles developing like this is only a natural consequence of training only through Kumite. 

余計な筋肉はかえって動きを悪くするからね！

余計な - yokei-na - "excessive/unnecessary"
筋肉  - kinniku - "muscles"
は - wa - indicates muscles are the subject of the sentence.
かえって - "on the contrary" Sorta, anyway. It's meant to indicate that excessive muscles will have the opposite effect to what you'd expect.

動きを悪くするからね - ugoki wo waruku suru- "will be bad for your movements/will worsen your movements"

からね - kara ne - "because, ne!" =P

"Kara ne" here means "this is why, see", as in "this is why it's important that you develop only those muscles necessary to Wushu". So I turned into a cautionary "Beware!", but there are lots of ways to translate it.

Hope this helps.

Hey Iwanin, whats up XD

Hi, Muk. Nothing much - a little bit of this, a little bit of that...

which you like more?
naruto or mizoushou High? XD

Hmmm...tough... I like them both in their own way. I could *probably* live without ever finding out how Mizushou ends (*probably*), but I'm not sure I could live without knowing how Naruto ends (well, I know it ends with him becoming Hokage, but you know what I mean).

So maybe that makes me lean a bit towards Naruto right now, but that could change,

when is the next mizoushou high chapter coming out? Lol

February 5th.

Its your fault you got me hooked on this echii manga
its good though

It's all Inane's Yellow Flasher's fault - he's the one who suggested I do Mizushou for tamascans. Actually he gave me a list of options, and they all sounded like your typical shounen fare, but then he said, "well, there's this ecchi one that -" and I'm like " I'll take it! As long as it's not more shounen I'll take it!!!! "

 

[Anax]

Thank you Iwanin for your patience in analyzing that bothersome sentence
As a side note I've heard one or two martial arts instructors (Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do) say that too. Big muscles in the legs for one do not allow high kicks. Of course this can be extended to any part of the body, since large muscles make you less flexible, less agile. In said martial arts one need long, flexible muscles.

Now a question (an easy one I think): Does Iwanin mean something? What led you to choosing it as your alias? Do you feel connected to the alias? How would you feel if we were to assosiate you with it?

Answer the same for your avatar if you want

 

[Iwanin]

Now a question (an easy one I think): Does Iwanin mean something? What led you to choosing it as your alias? Do you feel connected to the alias? How would you feel if we were to assosiate you with it?

Answer the same for your avatar if you want

Funny you should ask.

Iwanin *does* mean something - kinda. See, my name is Pedro, i.e. Pete, i.e. Petrus, which means rock. Iwa means rock in Japanese. Nin is a "chinese" (onyomi)  reading in Japanese for various Kanji. One of those Kanji is the character for Ninja, so that's why Iwagakure's (Village hidden under rocks) shinobi are sometimes called "iwanin". However, "nin" is also a possible reading for the character for person.

So, Iwanin = Rock + Person, 岩人.

Note that I made the word up and those two characters together could just as easily be read "iwabito", "gambito" (no thank you), or "gannin".

As far as my avatar...I'll leave that up to your imagination, but I can tell you that in real life I look more like Harry Potter than Speedy González.

 

[Anax]

Speedy is a lot more emotional than Harry, as Latinos carry a lot more emotion than those generally cold assed (as we Greeks call 'em) British. Still, this is a joke and I don't want to bring hell down to earth, I don't have any problems with the British, it's just a saying =Þ

I recall reading somewhere in the book "Secrets of Ninpo" by Shoto Tanemura, that the kanji for nin is comprised of two other kanji, heart (kokoro?) and sword, knife. He also said that is means to have a "sharp heart". "Ja" I think stood for "disciple" though I don't remember and I trust you know better... He also said ninja's where called "shinobi", which supposedly means "divine warrior. After the enlightening discussion with ratfox I gather that "shin" stands for "divine" and "obi" for warrior. Does this bring "Obi Was Kenobi" to mind or is it just me? Lastly another term for ninja I remember was "kusha", meaning grass, because ninja must be as resilient as grass. No wait, I think he also mentioned "ka'an" or "k'an" from chinese, meaning "nothing", because ninja have to be "invisible" or as Ballabird Lee in Gungrave put it "kill their presence" (very poetic).

So... I forgot where I was going. Tough luck Comment away and I'll get back when I find my chain of thought (must be around here somewhere)

P.S.: What's the plural of "ninja" or "shinobi"? I'm used to seen these words with an "s" in the end, as in "nins", though it just doesn't sound right. In Greek we just leave the world unaltered to show it's foreign and can't be subject to Greek gramar. So, give us a hint

 

[Iwanin]

What's the plural of "ninja" or "shinobi"? I'm used to seen these words with an "s" in the end, as in "nins", though it just doesn't sound right. In Greek we just leave the world unaltered to show it's foreign and can't be subject to Greek gramar. So, give us a hint

Alright, let me answer this easy one first - I'll comment on the rest when I get back, which would be - oh, on Tuesday - I think.

Anyway, there's not plural in Japanese per se. There are basically two ways to specify that there's more than one person or thing involved: one is by creating a composite noun by repeating the original. So "hi" meaning day, "hibi" means days; "hito" meaning person, "hitobito" means lots of persons (i.e., people). However, you can only do this with certain nouns.

To my knowledge, there is no "shinobishinobi", nor "ninjaninja" .

There's another way to specify multiplicity, and that's using the sufix "tachi". So, as "watashi" is "I", "watashi-tachi" means "us"; konoha no shinobi tachi means "the shinobi(s) of Konoha".

So just pluralize them in Greek - I'm sure the Japanese won't mind.

 

[Nihongaeri]

I was a tad bit board, so I figured I'd try to help Iwanin out a tad... Hope you don't mind at all, Pete...

I recall reading somewhere in the book "Secrets of Ninpo" by Shoto Tanemura, that the kanji for nin is comprised of two other kanji, heart (kokoro?) and sword, knife. He also said that is means to have a "sharp heart".

The kanji for 忍 "nin" in 忍者 "ninja" is formed from to parts, 刃 ("blade") on the top, and 心 ("heart") on the bottom. The character 忍 apparently has two meanings that were brought in from Chinese, one being "endure" and the other being "cruel/merciless". There is a third meaning, basically "sneak", which apparently got attached to the character in Japan. This third meaning is what the character means in the word "ninja". It's also what it means in the noun "shinobi", which is typically written 忍び, and then there's the verb 忍ぶ "shinobu" that means, of course, "sneak".

Does the composition of the character have anything to do with its meaning? Remember that because the actual character was created in China, the logic behind its original composition can only possibly directly relate to the meanings that actually existed in China. Is it possible that it was applied to the concept of "sneaking" in Japan due to its composition (through abstract connection such as "sneaking" requires a "sharp heart")? Sure, why not? But then again, I suggest that you always take such stories of word origin with very large grains of salt. People have a tendency to want to see meaning in things even when there really isn't any at all to begin with.

"Ja" I think stood for "disciple" though I don't remember and I trust you know better...

"ja" from "ninja", assumably, is just effectively "person".

He also said ninja's where called "shinobi", which supposedly means "divine warrior.

While I hardly want to claim to be incredibly knowledgeable on the subject of etymology (Japanese or otherwise), "shinobi" meaning "divine warrior" seems suspect to me. I can only assume that the verb "shinobu", meaning "sneak", got changed through very traditional convention into the noun "shinobi", referring to a ninja, which again I suppose has a more literal meaning of "a person who sneaks".

After the enlightening discussion with ratfox I gather that "shin" stands for "divine" and "obi" for warrior.

One thing to note here is that "shinobi" is "shi'no'bi", not "shin'o'bi". In Japanese, the nasal "n" that occurs at the end of a syllable is pronounced differently than the nasal "n" that occurs at the beginning of a syllable.

Interesting story, when I went to Japan my first time, I attended a high school called 新栄 "shin'ei" (lit. "new honor"). Until then I never really realized how important the distinction between the initial "n" and final "n" can be. Unaware as I was, I happened to pronounce the school's name as "shi'nei", which, in Japanese, sounds pretty much like the imperative 死ね "shine", meaning "DIE!". So yes... That distinction is potentially quite important.

I need to go to bed now... So I'll leave things here.

 

[Saithan]

I can imagine that must have felt an awkward thing to be told, "I'm a student at DIE!"...

 

[shoked]

are you going to translatie in spanish some other mangas or just english?

cool/chido

 

[Iwanin]

I don't mind at all, Nick... ... in fact, I'm grateful, as I've been "away" these past few days.

Mexican Holiday. "Constitution day". Yes, we have "Constitution day". Nobody really gives a damn about the Constitution, but it's an excuse for not going to work.

We seriously need something like a "Golden Week" over here, though.

On the whole "shin-obi" issue, one thing I'd like to add to Nick's already thorough essay (see? tú no cantas mal la ranchera - private joke) is that "shin" is the "chinese" reading for  A NUMBER of Kanji in Japanese.

Chinese has, simply, *FAR* more sounds than Japanese (yes, I'm grouping all Chinese and Japanese dialects together - sue me). When Kanji was brought over, the Japanese people attempted to not only write their own language in Kanji, but to mimic the original chinese pronounciation for each character.

Notice I said *attempted* - they were not very successful, and this lead to the proliferation of homophones found in the Japanese language today.

To understand how this came about, let me give you an example using another language with far more sounds than Japanese - English (yes, English).

The verb "to sit" - to sit down.
The veb "to shit" - to defecate.

Japanese does not make a distinction between "shi" and "si". Heck, it doesn't have the sound you get from the "t" at the end.

Thus, you get "shito" for both - well, maybe "shitto/shito", whatever. The point is that words which it is possible to distinguish in one language become homophones when brought into another where phonetics *don't* let you make the distinction.

So "shin" is "god/divine", "new", "true", "kind/relative", "advance", "believe", "deep", "heart", "gentleman", "invade", "sleep" ... and those are only the ones that *come to mind right now*. All of these words have different characters associated with them and all the characters where pronounced differently in Chinese...

The moral of the story is that it's not advisable suppose two words are etymologically related just because they share phonetic elements... in other words, not all words with "shin" in them have to do with divinity.

This is, of course, not the case of Shinobi, as Nick pointed out. Shinobi is "shi-no-bi", not "shin-o-bi".

are you going to translatie in spanish some other mangas or just english?

cool/chido

Hmmm... well, right now I'm focusing on English only. I'd sure *like* to translate into Spanish, but English gives me a much broader audience. My time is limited, so I can't say "oh, I'll translated this one into *both* languages", and if I go with Spanish-only, I mean... unfortunately, I reach fewer people.

Es una verdadera lástima. A lo mejor ya que tenga más tiempo libre y/o esté mejor organizado y/o sea más rápido será posible... pero en lo que toca al futuro inmediato, me temo que sólo inglés...

Ahora bien, si alguien quiere traducir mis traducciones del inglés al español, por mí no hay problema. Incluso, si hay alguna duda respecto a qué decía el guión original en alguna parte del texto y gustan consultarme, estaría encantado. 

 

[Anax]

I think I cought some of your Spanish flying in the air And to think I know nothing about Spanish (yeah, don't include: libre, organizado, rapido, posible, futuro immediato, solo ingles, problema, respecto, original, texto...)
Still, it's not nice to speak in a language we won't understand... Can you imagine me adding Greek comments to everything? That's it mister, I'm calling my lawyer right now! Your ass is sued! </joke>

I was going to include a lot of kanji from said book on Ninpo but a little accident involving the single phone socket in my house being ripped from the wall kind of limits my MH access to net cafe from which I can't read or write in Japanese

Anyway, thanks Iwanin and Nihongaeri for all your help, it's been seriously much appreciated

 

[Iwanin]

Let me clear this up though, just in case...

Es una verdadera lástima. A lo mejor ya que tenga más tiempo libre y/o esté mejor organizado y/o sea más rápido será posible... pero en lo que toca al futuro inmediato, me temo que sólo inglés...

Ahora bien, si alguien quiere traducir mis traducciones del inglés al español, por mí no hay problema. Incluso, si hay alguna duda respecto a qué decía el guión original en alguna parte del texto y gustan consultarme, estaría encantado.

It's truly a shame. Maybe once I have more free time and/or am better organized and/or quicker it'll be possible... but as far as the foreseeable future's concerned, I'm afraid it'll be English only...

That said, if there's someone out there who'd like to translate my translations from English to Spanish, that'd be fine by me. In fact, if anyone has a question on how the original text went in a given line and would like to ask me about it, I'd be delighted (to help).

Feels weird, translating myself.

If ever I should use Spanish here, it'll be for something that I honestly believe nobody other than the Spanish speaker it's directed to would care about. I personally hate it when people whisper into each other's ears in front of others, so it's nothing like that.

 

[Anax]

This is so awesome! I understood more than 60% of what you said in Spanish! I'm so hyped!

Feels weird, translating myself.

Hahaha, I do it all the time, since my friends who see me spend so much time here often don't understand what has been (or is being) said

 

[Iwanin]

This is so awesome! I understood more than 60% of what you said in Spanish! I'm so hyped!

That's the thing with a lot of the more widespread western languages - since they're all more or less derived from greek and latin, they're relatively easy to learn if you know even one. The equivalent to some of the more exotic words in English are very common in Spanish and vice versa (repose comes to mind right away).

With Japanese, the single greatest obstacle to westerners is that you don't have that - you have to learn and memorize every word from scratch.

Now that I think about it, both Spanish and French are very usefull as second languages, so I'd encourge English Speakers - native or otherwise -  to get into those if you feel you lack the time or the means to learn Japanese, or just for kicks.

French is not as difficult as it seems - you just have to learn which half of the word is "silent" and that's pretty much it - you'll at least be able to read it.

Hahaha, I do it all the time, since my friends who see me spend so much time here often don't understand what has been (or is being) said

Not for me. For me it's Spanish all day, every day, except for when I'm here... any Mexican friend of mine likely to visit these boards (and pretty much none do) would know enough English that it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Anax]

I must have worded this badly. I too speak Greek-only in Greece, but since I visit this place from a net cafe, say, 30% of the time (100% after the accident) it's common for people who know me to see what I'm typing and typing and typing about Which brings us to translating myself

Anyway, let's lighten up a bit. You know, it somehow strikes me as weird to see a Mexican learn Japanese! It also seems weird to the people I hang out with (then again, they spent most of the time teasing me about it since Greeks make little distinction between Chinese and Japanese and also don't say "It's all Greek to me", rather "It's all Chinese to me"). You also seem like the standard Mexican guy I have in my mind: humorous, laid back, talking straight, the guy who'd make a sexual joke too many... and generally nice company
Man, do I like foreign people

 

[Leen]

Anax beat me to it. I am about to ask the same question myself.

Anyway, if you are given only one letter to describe yourself, what letter will you choose and why?

If you are given one number to describe yourself, which number will you pick and why?

Thanks.

 

[Nihongaeri]

With Japanese, the single greatest obstacle to westerners is that you don't have that - you have to learn and memorize every word from scratch.

Well, except for all the katakana-go. And if you're to believe my former Chinese classmates from when I was in Japan, that's the hardest part of Japanese! LOL! If I had a dime for every time a Chinese student complained about katakana-go... Oh boy, would I have a ton of dimes. And there I was (and still am) up to my neck in Kanji... *sigh*

 

[Gold Knight]

At the rate you guys are going, you guys will be kanji experts