The Iwanin Thread

[Iwanin]

I've just checked the first pages of SOWB. What the fuck Pete?! Why didn't you tell me about this one earlier?!
*reads*

Because we hadn't seen each other online in like - how long? Maybe like a month before I started doing Mizushou. I missed you too....

@Iwanin --> When I go home at night I'll think of more Greek words that might mean something. In the mean time, tell me if kukutsi, kazanaki, buru and buru-buru mean anything.

Hmmmm... I really don't know, but I'm guessing kukutsi and kazanaki don't mean anything in Japanese. As far as buru-buru, though, I was pretty sure when you mentioned it that there had to be an onomatopoeic term that matched - and, sure enough, there is: it means to shiver or shake, from fear or cold.

Knowing both Japanese and Spanish can be pretty amusing, btw. The following are Japanese terms and what they mean or sound like in Spanish:

Kage (shadow - like houkage) - a subjunctive form of the verb "to shit."
Kakka (something like "your excellency") - crap.
Baka (moron) - cow.
Abogado (avocado) - attorney.
Pinchi ("trouble, pinch" - from the English "pinch) - often used deformed version of "pinche", a four letter word for "wretched".
Hime (princess) - a conjugated form of the verb "to moan".

And there are a couple of others I really should save for the Seinen Manga forum,

So, I took one of the silly tests someone put up in the fun forum and it looks like I'm Hermione Granger (Harry Potter characters) and also an Angel (mythical beings). Put aside the nearly inescapable urge to take my own life since some internet test almost took away my masculinity, I guess I'm a lot like Hermione concerning "nerdiness" and I'm quite nicer than a lot of people I know (not an angel though). So, this random girl, makes up a nick, that is a common pass time of Sakura's and Hermione's... man, just WHAT ARE THE FRIGGIN ODDS?

... that I do not know. Uhum, yes.

Thanks for your long answers, Iwanin. I enjoy reading them. Wow, 3000+ chinese characters is actually the easiest of all. This is DIFFICULT!!!!!! This really breaks my heart. I am impressed that you can learn them and translate them so well. I really dont think I can learn so many languages too. Plus, spanish, french and japanese escpecially the previou two are really useful in various countries and not limited to Spain and France only. I am jealous with your ability. You are great

Er...maybe not so great. The last thing I wanted to do was discourage anyone from trying to learn. . I should clarify that any and all difficulties can be surely (if not always easily) surmounted by people with genuine interest in learning. The most important thing when learning another language is to be constant and practice every single day.

Everyone I know who's taken on the challenge with passion has succeeded sooner or later, regardless of how good or bad they think they are at languages in general.

Also, when I said that Kanji were the least of one's worries, that was coming from my own personal point of view. The fact is that I'm something of a Kanji-freak, so they never gave me that much trouble (although I *do* find it rather bothersome that I still need a dictionary handy when translating).

So, just consider this: the (non-Japanese) people I know who are most profficient in the language are almost all of them animé and or manga and or Jpop fans. They learn faster than other students because they're constantly exposed to the language and have a genuine interest in deciphering what their favorite characters are saying.

Anyway, SOWB 10 is out, and I'm translating SOWB 11 this evening (all prep-work done), so it should be out in a week or two. don't forget to stop by www.tamascans.net and check it out! (if you're over 18).

 

[Gold Knight]

Just kind of a random question here.

What are the kanji and words for winter, summer, spring, and autumn?

And a personal question, I suppose, which one do you prefer the most?

And glad that you're having fun with SOWB.

 

[Iwanin]

Just kind of a random question here.

What are the kanji and words for winter, summer, spring, and autumn?

And a personal question, I suppose, which one do you prefer the most? 

And glad that you're having fun with SOWB.

Winter: 冬 (fuyu)
Summer: 夏 (natsu)
Spring: 春 (haru)
Autumn: 秋 (aki)

My favorite is, of course, 春 ! Ask njt why if you can't figure it out,

Hint: There's a lot of "might" to it! 

 

[Gold Knight]

Gai's your favorite character, too, huh?

 

[Iwanin]

Gai's your favorite character, too, huh?

He's one of my favorites, but it's the whole notion of seishun that I like the most.

I'm also enormously fond of Naruto himself. He's one of the most sympathetic and endearing main characters I've ever come across. At first glance you might think he's just your typical "gambare-boy" (Oh! I'll do my best and become stronger and protect those I love! *cough* G*ku, *cough*, G*ku), but Naruto's different in that there's actually a reason for his obsession with being the best, and he not only stumbles on the way, but he takes proverbial dives.

Like, take right now: a lot of people are complaining about Naruto appearing comparatively weak this second part, thinking: "oh, he should have gotten a lot better by now! Why's he even more useless than in the first part!" And the answer is that he's gotten stronger in terms of abilities, but mentally he's right smack in the middle of adolescence, and Kishi's expressing that by having Naruto's emotions get the better of him, which makes him less effective in battle than he might have been before. It makes him that much more vulnerable and real as a character.

One I really like is when he confesses to Hinata that he doubts he can beat Neji. Your typical "gambare-boy" would have such an overwhelmingly positive attitude that he would *never* show any insecurity. With Naruto you can tell that half of the times he goes "shut-up! I'll show you" he's really struggling to convince himself. It's a defense mechanism, but his insecurity never stops him from trying.

I also just *love* Naruto's outlook on life: if something's wrong with the world, he doesn't try to conform withe everyone else's standards and accept it - he works to change it, even against impossible odds.

So yeah, I love his "unusual gift" (I coined that one, mind you).

 

[Gold Knight]

I love your thinking concerning of Naruto and agree with you 100%. Naruto is a whole lot more human than DBZ as a story and as far as the characters.

I have another question for you, related to a past question/answer.

Winter: 冬 (fuyu)
Summer: 夏 (natsu)
Spring: 春 (haru)
Autumn: 秋 (aki)

When looking at the kanji on your computer screen, do you ever need to enlarge them to read and understand them?

For example, I just tried to write these kanji, but it was hard to see all the strokes that small, so I enlarged them on the screen.

冬 (fuyu)
夏 (natsu)
春 (haru)
秋 (aki)

 

[Iwanin]

I love your thinking concerning of Naruto and agree with you 100%.  Naruto is a whole lot more human than DBZ as a story and as far as the characters.

I have another question for you, related to a past question/answer.

When looking at the kanji on your computer screen, do you ever need to enlarge them to read and understand them?

Well, the thing with Kanji is that you get used to them. It's funny, but there's a limited number of "base particles", called "radicals", which make up any given Kanji. By learning these radicals, you end up being able to identify Kanji as constructs of familiar elements. This is akin to looking at any word in English the meaning of which you don't understand, but being able to remember it and reproduce it in writing because you know the letters that make it up.

So it's pretty much the same with Kanji: some of the more elaborate ones I've never come across before *do* pose a problem, but for the most part all you need to do is identify the radicals and you get a pretty good idea not only of how to *write* the Kanji, but how you're likely to *read* it.

To me the biggest problem is Katakana - I just hate it. They all look the same. Figures: women made up hiragana - men made up katakana.  Honestly, this is something we should leave to the fairer sex.

 

[Gold Knight]

Radicals - like:

冬 (fuyu)
夏 (natsu)

Top of the kanji for fuyu and bottom of the kanji for natsu?

And yeah, women are so much more artistic.

 

[Iwanin]

Radicals - like:

冬 (fuyu)
夏 (natsu)

Top of the kanji for fuyu and bottom of the kanji for natsu?

And yeah, women are so much more artistic. 

Actually, I meant that they're much more practical. And yeah, that's a radical right there. The top art of natsu is also a radical. Fuyu all together could also be taken as a radical: you'll find it in characters like, say, 終, which means to conclude.

 

[Gold Knight]

You mentioned a limited number of radicals - how many are there?

 

[Anax]

@GK: Why not move this to the languages forum, inside the Japanese Language thread where Iwanin could teach a thing or two, based solely on our questions (no rushing, no courses, just Q&A).

@Iwanin: I bought "Remembering the Kanji: A Systematic Guide to Reading Japanese Characters: v. 1" by James W. Heisig. Do you know the book? It's about learning the approximately 2000 Kanji the averege Japanese knows when they finish high school. The book is actually a memorising method, using not "radicals", rather "primitives" that are simple Kanji often found in Kanji compounds (some are radicals anyway). The book only describes stroke order and mentions the meaning of each Kanji (and also its "primitive" meaning should it be one). Heisig says that his book is structured for self study, that it introduces us to the basic Kanji in his own way, that the book must be read in the order it's written and things like that. There's no pronounciations or grammar involved there either. I think volume two is about reading and volume three is about writing and reading for upper level proficiency. If you know the book, thell me what you think. If you don't know the book, you might still tell me what to think. I'm just worried about volume two (and the time comes three), because this person is said to have weird ways in teaching reading, since he assumes all his readers have an American accent, when truly I'm just a copycat, immitating the pronounciation of the speaker opposite of me (hadn't realised that till last year).

As far as Kana goes, I got: Let's Learn Hiragana: First Book of Japanese Writing and Let's Learn Katakana: Second Book of Basic Japanese Writing

Am I in the right path?

EDIT/ What dictionaries do you use?

 

[Iwanin]

@GK: Why not move this to the languages forum, inside the Japanese Language thread where Iwanin could teach a thing or two, based solely on our questions (no rushing, no courses, just Q&A).

@Iwanin: I bought "Remembering the Kanji: A Systematic Guide to Reading Japanese Characters: v. 1" by James W. Heisig. Do you know the book? It's about learning the approximately 2000 Kanji the averege Japanese knows when they finish high school. The book is actually a memorising method, using not "radicals", rather "primitives" that are simple Kanji often found in Kanji compounds (some are radicals anyway). The book only describes stroke order and mentions the meaning of each Kanji (and also its "primitive" meaning should it be one). Heisig says that his book is structured for self study, that it introduces us to the basic Kanji in his own way, that the book must be read in the order it's written and things like that. There's no pronounciations or grammar involved there either. I think volume two is about reading and volume three is about writing and reading for upper level proficiency. If you know the book, thell me what you think. If you don't know the book, you might still tell me what to think. I'm just worried about volume two (and the time comes three), because this person is said to have weird ways in teaching reading, since he assumes all his readers have an American accent, when truly I'm just a copycat, immitating the pronounciation of the speaker opposite of me (hadn't realised that till last year).

As far as Kana goes, I got: Let's Learn Hiragana: First Book of Japanese Writing and Let's Learn Katakana: Second Book of Basic Japanese Writing

Am I in the right path?

EDIT/ What dictionaries do you use?

Yeah, I actually know Heising's books - I have all three of them. To be honest, though, the book I use the most is the one that has the actual origins of each Kanji - I don't remember the name and I'm at work right now, so I'll give you the name a bit later. I think there's only *one*, though,

*Personally*, I'd recommend the latter book for learning the basics of Kanji, and then Heising's volumes two and three. The first book f*cks up in that he gives you basically a mnemonic for each primitive ( heck - I call 'em all radicals, ) that doesn't have anything to do with what the character originally meant. If you don't know what the character means you're gonna be going "WTF" when you find it compound characters with completely different meaning.

He suggests you make up cute little stories on how the elements relate to help you memorize their meaning regardless, but that doesn't really work for me. Maybe it's just the linguist in me, though. Also, what he tells you they "mean" - the so-called "core" meaning - is his own interpretation in English on meanings which are abstract to begin with.

As for Hiragana and Katakana, whatever helps you learn them.

Though, the right path to mastery of Japanese usually goes through a classroom and ends in Japan. Note that I haven't actually made it that far, [br]Posted at: January 27, 2006, 01:51:14 PM_________________________________________________

You mentioned a limited number of radicals - how many are there?

Lots.

 

[Anax]

Though exposure to the language is a great factor (and everyone into video games and movies is exposed to English all the  time), I'll tell you this: My English is at such a level that I can think in it and also convey those thoughts with the same ease I do in my mother tongue (though I'm better at that when it comes to abstract meanings and might look like a first grader when it comes to silly things such as the word for a-pair-of-trousers-that's-used-in-sports-activities-and-obviously-not-called-trousers ). I've also never been to any English speaking country and most Americans I've met say I speak the language quite naturaly (thank you copycat nature and Hollywood). My point? If I can reach the same level in Japanese, even if it takes ten years, I'd be glad. In my opinion mastery of any language is not possible in a lifetime. To tell you the truth, sometimes I just forget how to say something in Greek and just try to remember it by saying the English word (which makes my friends tease me so much). The point of this post? Please tell me I don't really HAVE to live in Japan or take any lessons (the way I did with English for some 8 years) because in Greece you can't just go about saying you want to learn Japanese! People see you as a sign of the times! I almost ended up in the local circus's freak show as the central attraction, with a big neon sign above my head
--> The freak who wants to learn Japanese <--

 

[Iwanin]

Though, the right path to mastery of Japanese usually goes through a classroom and ends in Japan. Note that I haven't actually made it that far,

Usually. Not always. So no, you don't necessarily have to take lessons nor go to Japan. What I meant to say is that it makes it that much easier for one, and it makes the process go that much quicker. So, if you ever get the opportunity to do so, you should take it. That's all I was saying. 

Bear in mind a key difference between learning English and learning Japanse: not only are you more easily exposed to English in everyday media, but you're exposed to it from a young age. I never took English lessons and I've never lived in an English speaking country. In fact, all I needed was the family TV set - but I was a kid back then! Kids' minds are like sponges: they just absorbe everything.

With adults it's a bit different. 

So I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying it's going to require that much more effort. But hey, that's what seishun power's for! Hard work overcomes the toughest obstacles! Tobidase, seishun!

note: seishun means youth, and represents Guy and Rock's modus vivendi.

Update: Ok, let me sum up the key to learning any language in a single word: COMMITMENT. You have commitment, there's no way you can fail. You don't have it, you're not going anywhere, ever. Note that part of commitment is seeking out the opportunities you feel you need to improve.

 

[Gold Knight]

@GK: Why not move this to the languages forum, inside the Japanese Language thread where Iwanin could teach a thing or two, based solely on our questions (no rushing, no courses, just Q&A).

No - it's Iwanin's thread, questions made specifically to him, he gives us his time to answer 'em, so I don't want to fuck around with the thread, ya know?

( Though we could possibly make a mish-mash of all the translators' comments on Japanese questions and make a thread out of that, but I dunno. )

And lots of radicals, eh, Pete? Have you learned them all?

 

[Hermie]

( Though we could possibly make a mish-mash of all the translators' comments on Japanese questions and make a thread out of that, but I dunno. )

Isn't that what the General Translations questions sub-forum is for?

 

[Saithan]

Hey Iwanin, I have been trying to translate some manga text for some time and a few elements are eluding me, so I was hoping you could help me catch them:

組み手で筋肉をつければ、純粋に武術に必要な筋肉だけがつくだろう。
kumite on the muscles(tsukereba?) genius in Wushu in necessary "na" muscles (dakega tsukudaroo)?

余計な筋肉はかえって動きを悪くするからね！
too much "na" muscles rather the move becomes bad from ???

if you could translate this for me I'd appreciate it a lot, also what function does the "na" have there I don't recall any lessons (so far) in my class speaking of it, unless it's a na adjective...

Ohh yeah, the text is from History's strongest disciple Kenichi ch21.

Oh yeah regarding heisig I don't know how good his books are since I haven't tried them myself, but it should be great to recognize kanjis, but you don't learn how to pronounce them from his books though, not the first one teaching you to memorize kanjis through having them look similar to things... like birds in cage, and fish in water etc.

My teacher says that learning kanjis 5-10 at a time is good enough, as long as you use them and don't forget them.

Heh he even made Kandoku renshuu to us instead of numbers we had kanjis, and I can guarentee you that it takes a bit longer solving them, than normal sudoku does.

 

[Gold Knight]

Isn't that what the General Translations questions sub-forums is for?

More like asking for translations, kind of a bigger version of the "Requests thread" ( the General Translations questions subforum was created after the "Requests thread," which does make that thread somewhat redundant, but I'm kinda fond of that thread so whatever ) but not actually learning Japanese.

The Languages subforum under General Discussion is for people who want to teach/learn languages, and Japanese counts.

I never really thought about creating a "Hey, kids! Wanna learn Japanese? " thread based on comments in General Translations subforum and all the various Translators' threads here, though. I think it's best if one of the translators lead the way.

Not that I'm asking Iwanin to do that, he's got a lot on his plate.

 

[Hermie]

I see, sounds like a good idea if the translators have time to do it. ^_^

 

[Iwanin]

組み手で筋肉をつければ、純粋に武術に必要な筋肉だけがつくだろう。
kumite on the muscles(tsukereba?) genius in Wushu in necessary "na" muscles (dakega tsukudaroo)?

"Hone your muscles through "kumite*", and only those necessary to Wushu shall develop."

*the practice of martial arts against a live opponent/sparring partner - that's what I gather from the definition, anyway.

余計な筋肉はかえって動きを悪くするからね！

"Beware! For excess musculature shall hinder your movements!"

Update: Both "na" particles are -na adjectives: hitsuyou na (necessary) and yokei na (excess, superfluous).

I'll give you a rundown on how to read the entire sentence later on...