Discussion The tournament needs to end

[GumGumRep]

Oda has really handled this tournament poorly. In fact, it’s become less of a tournament, and more of a poorly disguised plot device decorated with throwaway characters, and considering the amount of breaks One Piece has nowadays, Oda should really stop wasting chapters on this mess.

Block C especially is really irritating me with all the throwaway characters. Block B is guilty of throwaway characters, sure, but at least we didn’t actually know for sure who was going to win, so introducing all these characters added an element of mystery. However, with Block C, we know Luffy’s going to win, so introducing all these new characters - of which only maybe one or two we’ll see again - is just needlessly prolonging not only the tournament, but the entire arc.

I wish Oda wold just show us the Luffy vs. Chinjao fight that everyone wants to see, spend a few chapters on Block D, and then get on with the rest of the Dressrosa arc.

 

[hoeru]

How do you know that? Have you read the chapters of the next years already?

Oh, and BTW: This isn't a tournament arc. The tournament is only one of three plotlines. It's completely fine if he doesn't stretch it out too much.

 

[weixiaobao]

As you both correctly point out that this isn't a tournament. By that I meant not like the sort of tournament in Dragon Ball. By that I meant, who is the ultimate winner of the tournament isn't the goal of this arc. Doflamingo had pointed out even before this arc began that the whole tournament was meant as a distraction to Luffy.

So now, I will answer the criticisms.

-Pacing.... Let's talk about the pacing first. He didn't show block A. Block B was over in couple of chapters (2 chapters of actual fighting). Block C had only 1 chapter so far of actual fighting. It may take overall of 3 chapters, 1 more than block B. Block D may/may not be summarize. Lastly the tournament may be interrupted and not finished at all. Further more, the anime could use to expand on these characters a bit instead of the stupid crowds cheering fillers.

-As a plot device? You said that it was poorly done. As I pointed out that it was meant as a distraction to Luffy. Using the tournament, Oda had shown many things. For example, the infiltration of the marines. The fact that Doflamingo had draw in an elite crowds for an unknown reason. Bellamy's redemption. The position of the supernovas in the New World became clearer (via Cavendish). The back story behind that kingdom became clearer with Rebecca, Ricky, and the toy soldier. Blackbeard's right hand man shown up. Does this have to do with the devil fruit hunt??? Also beg the question, is there other Yonkou's representatives remain in the crowds???

-As a plot device to the overall story, as we entered the New World we learned about the movement of the Black Beard's pirates (trying to capture strong DF). Kaidou is in league with Doflamingo. And Big Mam is being challenged by the supernovas. Plus the Marines are now reinforced their strength with the draft. With the blank century, and the arm race, it is inevitable that there will be a major conflict that involved many nation states. So what is a better way to show case some of those countries right now. I meant one of the reason why I didn't like the Marineford arc early on is because so many characters appear so suddenly and fade into the background. But because of the pacing of that arc demand, not all characters should have been highlight (which is a correct move on Oda's part). Someone pointed out that these people may joined Luffy to fight against Doflamingo. That maybe true for some characters, but who know some of them maybe bride into fighting the strawhats. And is this arc going to end with Doflamingo??? I meant a lot of things happened that does fell outside of a normal storyline. I meant didn't the Supernovas weren't the enemies in the arc that they were introduced. Kuma wipe the floor with the strawhats on ThrillerBark even though it seemed it would end with Moriah. And Franky wasn't the big bad during the Water 7 Arc. The Blackbeard's representative bothered me quite a bit here. And where is Kaido's henchmen?

-As a plot device, personal growth, this element of this arc does put a lot of thing into perspective like haki, supernovas, fishmen karate, over 500 million berries, or the right hand man of a Yonkou. Luffy, thus far, had not yet been challenged to push himself improve. Would he being force to show more of his growth here like his battle against Blueno??

-Fodder characters- They are definitely necessary to put some characters into perspective. And they maybe involved later on. Well, Blueno was a random bartender. Did you care for him then??? Hachi was just an idiot octopus that was just a random henchman for Zoro to kick his ass. Did you care for him then?? People like Ricky and Blue Gilly were really high light for a reason. Like wise, I think the Funk bro and Ideo maybe more than they appear to be.

This as you know is one element of this arc. And you have no idea if the tournament even play out entirely and or interrupted by some unforeseen thing. Did you expect Ace to die?? Did you expect Kuma completely beat the strawhats?? Did you expect Luffy's one punch knock out Bellamy??? Did you expect Crocodile seemingly kill Luffy?? Did you expect Franky was to join the Strawhats??

 

[danzouismadara]

I completely disagree with you on all levels! I think he is doing a splendid job! It gives us insight to the New World, and is a great warm-up before Luffy goes against even bigger people then doffy or people in the tournament. Plus, it'll boost the strawhats reputation.

 

[kkck]

Well, I hated how the tournament was handled at the start however overall I actually started enjoying it this fight. I guess for me the difference was when there were a billion plot threads and none of them seemed to be going anywhere. I mean, at one point we had an individual plot thread for luffy, zoro, sanji, kinemon, franky, the guys at the boat and the guys at the exchange. Right now it seems at least sanji's side was solved and joined with kinemon and franky and it seems like zoro and the guys at the exchange are meeting soon thanks to the dwarfs. So all that is left is for luffy... And to be honest I do think his round is interesting overall. It seems there are quite a few strong people there and I want to see how luffy fared against a legendary pirate worth over 500 mil.

 

[vasilis]

dont like it after 700 ...too confusing too tiring

 

[winterwyrm]

Well, I hated how the tournament was handled at the start however overall I actually started enjoying it this fight. I guess for me the difference was when there were a billion plot threads and none of them seemed to be going anywhere. I mean, at one point we had an individual plot thread for luffy, zoro, sanji, kinemon, franky, the guys at the boat and the guys at the exchange. Right now it seems at least sanji's side was solved and joined with kinemon and franky and it seems like zoro and the guys at the exchange are meeting soon thanks to the dwarfs. So all that is left is for luffy... And to be honest I do think his round is interesting overall. It seems there are quite a few strong people there and I want to see how luffy fared against a legendary pirate worth over 500 mil.

Yes, everyone except law, luffy and the sunny watchers seem to be heading to the flower field, honestly I don't see how the tournament could finish anyways, the dwarfs say they're attacking doflamingo with the intention of overthrowing him, and the soldier of rage says that he will help franky "destroy this country" clearly they're talking about all hell breaking loose, and I can't imagine the tournament continuing for long like that.

That said the tournament has been really interesting for me, I don't need to see characters with big names all the time, and I'm still quite impressed with these tournament entries, I don't consider them fodder just because we haven't seen them before and because luffy will likely defeat them all, he will probably defeat every enemy eventually, doesn't mean I don't want to see it happen. Plus, wtf is burgess' role in this?! Seriously, I really don't think he will just go home without doing anything else. The tournament might have far-reaching consequences. Don't underestimate one piece, they might give us some legendary fights or at least some really good ones, and you might think this beats the tournaments in every other manga in the end.

 

[thatguy3331]

I'm in the camp that wasn't fond of it at first, but I have been enjoying the chapters lately. Anything regarding pacing I just put that to the fact that Oda's generally a slow paced story teller (even if he himself doesn't think so) so that really hasn't bothered me, and it helped that we had a look as to what the other groups were doing.

 

[danzouismadara]

personally, I think that one of fujitora's meteorites will destroy the arena in the middle of Block D. Then we will see everything in chaos.

 

[k-dom]

As you both correctly point out that this isn't a tournament. By that I meant not like the sort of tournament in Dragon Ball. By that I meant, who is the ultimate winner of the tournament isn't the goal of this arc. Doflamingo had pointed out even before this arc began that the whole tournament was meant as a distraction to Luffy.

So now, I will answer the criticisms.

-Pacing.... Let's talk about the pacing first. He didn't show block A. Block B was over in couple of chapters (2 chapters of actual fighting). Block C had only 1 chapter so far of actual fighting. It may take overall of 3 chapters, 1 more than block B. Block D may/may not be summarize. Lastly the tournament may be interrupted and not finished at all. Further more, the anime could use to expand on these characters a bit instead of the stupid crowds cheering fillers.

It is a tournament, why do you want to call it otherway ? And the fact that it is in the middle of an other bigger arc is precisely the issue. Normally tournaments are arc by themselves and that is why even if they slow the pace of the story at least you are not bothered by other plot lines. Here from all the one we have it is not really the most interesting so far. That's why even if it is not many chapters, they are chapters that take on the main plot. Also this is only the preliminary fights, let's not forget that we will have semi final and final after that.
As for the anime we all know what it did from the war which had a similar pacing and storytelling.

I meant one of the reason why I didn't like the Marineford arc early on is because so many characters appear so suddenly and fade into the background.
-Fodder characters- They are definitely necessary to put some characters into perspective. And they maybe involved later on. Well, Blueno was a random bartender. Did you care for him then??? Hachi was just an idiot octopus that was just a random henchman for Zoro to kick his ass. Did you care for him then?? People like Ricky and Blue Gilly were really high light for a reason. Like wise, I think the Funk bro and Ideo maybe more than they appear to be.

Indeed the war was proof to me that it is not the best idea to involved many new character at the same time in term of storytelling. That's why I don't think we need to see those characters again in another big battle (especially since most of them have been defeated quite easily). Oda may make one reappear later but not all of them.

This as you know is one element of this arc. And you have no idea if the tournament even play out entirely and or interrupted by some unforeseen thing. Did you expect Ace to die?? Did you expect Kuma completely beat the strawhats?? Did you expect Luffy's one punch knock out Bellamy??? Did you expect Crocodile seemingly kill Luffy?? Did you expect Franky was to join the Strawhats??

Well if the tournament was interrupted, I would be the last to complain. But then it would have been even be more a waste of time. At least I would like to see some nice fights but so far Oda has reused the cameo fight style from the war which is far from thrilling.

 

[danzouismadara]

This tournament is a waste only if oda wants to show abilities, since I'm sure if he went straight to fights without the tournament we would see the abilities. I think he tried to just have an excuse to separate luffy from all the drama, and at the same introduce new characters, and make the manga exciting since its a battle for a strong logia fruit.

 

[Schabrak]

In fact, it’s become less of a tournament, and more of a poorly disguised plot device decorated with throwaway characters,

Every manga tournament ever.

The mangakas breaks have nothing to do with the pacing of the plot in the tankobon.

Throwaway characters: Other mangaka will surely give every single tournament contestant a back story and time to shine. This manga is about the mugiwaras and their adventures, while the rest of the world is rich and full of characters, of course Oda will have to create some never to be seen again characters to introduce a whole New World. :P

dont like it after 700 ...too confusing too tiring

What is too confusing? I really would like to know.

 

[chess4]

The Tournament will get better when the 4 winners face the Doflamingo family, but this tournament serves a much bigger purpose. A lot of these characters will eventually become allies of the Strawhats down the road. This is an easy way to showcase some of their powers. Every arc since the story began Luffy has been gaining allies for the final showdown. The dwarves, Ricky,Bartolemeo, Rebecca, Cavendish, Don Chinjao, bellamy.....All of these characters will become allies for the strawhats.

The Strawhats will have need an army to face off against Kaido.

 

[winterwyrm]

The Tournament will get better when the 4 winners face the Doflamingo family, but this tournament serves a much bigger purpose. A lot of these characters will eventually become allies of the Strawhats down the road. This is an easy way to showcase some of their powers. Every arc since the story began Luffy has been gaining allies for the final showdown. The dwarves, Ricky,Bartolemeo, Rebecca, Cavendish, Don Chinjao, bellamy.....All of these characters will become allies for the strawhats.

The Strawhats will have need an army to face off against Kaido.

Do you think so? Maybe but I don't think they will need that much, burgess will definitely not be their ally, and what's more they probably wont fight all of kaidou's forces at once, I think if the straw hats, the law pirates and especially if kid's alliance were to fight too, then they would be able to defeat kaidou's forces, though it would be a struggle.

 

[weixiaobao]

It is a tournament, why do you want to call it otherway ? And the fact that it is in the middle of an other bigger arc is precisely the issue. Normally tournaments are arc by themselves and that is why even if they slow the pace of the story at least you are not bothered by other plot lines.

Hmmm, I begged the question what did I call it??? I called it as a non traditional tournament.
See you again brought in why it isn't a traditional tournament. Didn't you read what I wrote?? If the arc is about the tournament by itself. It meant that the whole plot line was about who winning. This is Oda, he isn't going to go for something so simple. You are only saying this because you read this week by week. And most of people's attention span is very shitty (including my own) because of the internet age. Go back and read it again once the arc is over.

As for the anime we all know what it did from the war which had a similar pacing and storytelling.

I don't watch the anime. The anime, to me, had always been a crap waste of time if I had already read the manga. Maybe it cool to watch a few youtube vid of the fights. Yes, the war is "horrible" pacing because again you are reading week from week. This is like saying Breaker: New Waves and Gantz covered so little ground per week. Well, that is certainly true. But your reading exp will change if you read it in volume form.

Oda may make one reappear later but not all of them.

Hmm, didn't you read what I wrote about fodder characters??? And perspective and all??

Well if the tournament was interrupted, I would be the last to complain. But then it would have been even be more a waste of time. At least I would like to see some nice fights but so far Oda has reused the cameo fight style from the war which is far from thrilling.

I think you are arguing against a perspective that you are assuming Oda is taking. Well if the perspective you think Oda is taking is a myth, then you are wasting your time. Many people complaining about this arc had no idea what Oda's plan for it, they are assuming what stances he is taking.

On your last point, I agree but disagree. The fighting during the war arc annoyed me but it was realistic. You know One Piece is note for having a few fight scenes at the end and the rest is "STORY." Think about that and apply to the war arc. All of the non shown fights was STORY. The only fight that was really highlight was everything involved Whitebeard. This has always been Oda's style. He kinda broke it with Punk Hazard, which in my opinion, has some of the best non strawhats fight scenes.

As for this current arc, in block B, most of them are fodders like Dagama, Abdullah and Jeet. People like Tank Lepanto and Ricky can put up a fight but their fight was pretty much offscreen. Hack was caught in a surprise, this is realistic because often we are debate such and such character could KO another depend on if they can act first. Elizabello II only has that punch, nothing more to him. You will going to see more of Bellamy and Bartolomeo, so there is no point to go too in detail with them since you will see their extend power sooner or later. So that leave Bluegilly, I am pretty sure there is a lot more to him to come.

Right away from block B, beside Bartlomeo and Bellamy, I will predict that Bluegilly will play a moderate role. Ricky already showed that he will "do" something in this arc. Tank Lepanto is one of the soldier of the kingdom, he will returned for like T-5 sec and get his ass kick by one of the strawhats. Abdullah and Jeet probably not going to return. Hack will not played a big role but served as a background of Jinbe. Beside, we heard nothing about Jinbe's crew. Jinbe's crew at a shichibukai level got put down a lot because of Arlong being the second strongest. But now, we saw Hack and we can guestimate their New World power. Dagama and Elizabello II may not play any important role to come but sure as hell they will reappeared for a screen shot toward the end for the final conflict that involved multi nations.

UP course, everything is prediction. Since block B already played out, I can logically predict those characters. In just one block, I kinda destroy your "one reappears" thing. At the end of the day, you maybe right. But we won't know until another year to come.

 

[chess4]

Do you think so? Maybe but I don't think they will need that much, burgess will definitely not be their ally, and what's more they probably wont fight all of kaidou's forces at once, I think if the straw hats, the law pirates and especially if kid's alliance were to fight too, then they would be able to defeat kaidou's forces, though it would be a struggle.

Really? Those 5 crews will not be enough to touch Kaido. Why would Kid help Luffy and Law. They arent after Kaido. Kaido has 500 ability users in his crew, not to mention the countless other crews he has working for him. If they went up against Kaido with just 5 crews they would be destroyed. YOu see how many people WB had behind him, it took the entire strength of the Wg to stop him, and you think just 5 crews will defeat Kaido....Come on son.

They will need a full scale army

 

[k-dom]

If this manga is published in a weekly magazine it is because it is intended to be read weekly. The mangakas use this schedule to create the pace of their story. There can be transition chapters and other but the manga still shall be enjoyable when read on a weekly basis even if it is better in volume. Also in this case I'm not sure this fights will be more interesting when read in one go...
As for your fodder characters, yes some of them can become important later. But it's impossible that all of these new characters will in this arc. Oda already struggle to give all the strawhat their arc moment and you want that all those have some more screen time later ? I hope they rest in peace.

 

[Seafarer]

My first reaction to this chapter was exactly like the initial poster's, so I can really relate to the arguments there. Now that I've had some time to cool my head down, I narrowed the things that really disturb me down to the following:

* Doesn't progress the story: the current arc as a LOT of storytelling potential going in many different directions, on which Oda has built a huge amount of anticipation in recent chapters. However, the early phases of the tournament only play a minor part in it because everyone pretty much agrees on their outcome. Therefore, a chapter such as 715 that doesn't bring any progress in the Law / Sanji / Franky / Dwarves / Sunny stories feels greatly frustrating because it simply doesn't give us any new story elements to chew on. Yes, Don Chinjao & cohort are haki users and other guys in block C are strong. Is that a surprise? No.

* Filler characters: I think we all agree that many tournament fighters are one-shot characters we won't see ever after. A couple of them will definitely play their part in the upcoming arc, and I for one sure hope to see more of the Chinjao gang, Ricky & Rebecca, Bellamy, and Cavendish & Barto. The rest ? Dust to dust. Nevertheless, Oda showcases them in a redudant manner (we've had at least two named introduction panels for most major fighters in blocks B & C, one early on and one during their block) that feels like he is trying to impose them on us, rather than giving them a genuine importance in the plot through storytelling alone.

* Detached from the main story: from what we're told, the New World is all about World Gov, Corsairs, Emperors and how the Strawhats & allies will rise up to the challenge to become major players in this era. However, with the exception of Jesus Burghess, none of the (still going) tournament fighters is seriously linked to any of that as far as we know (yet). A bit of the underworld, foreign kingdoms, Barto's mysterious mera-mera recipient, and that's it. The tournament events could be told in any generic shonen manga with little to no adaptation effort, i.e the new content that they bring feels only partly related to One Piece such as we currently know it. Maybe some of the characters and kingdoms mentionned will play a part in the future, but right now we don't know it for sure, and that's what makes them frustrating when there's already so much we don't know about. The potential is there, it's just not being exploited at the moment.


As a consequence of all the above, reinforced by the fact that Oda gives out only minimalist clues about the story elements he has sown and by the repeated breaks, awesome though they might be, thournament parts nevertheless feel like so much filler pages. I just can't help it. This all boils down to me wanting so badly to know what else is happening and getting caught in the pace of the weekly publication; the arc as a whole will still be enjoyable; yet, chapters such as 715 are really a notch below the rest in their individual enjoyability.

 

[weixiaobao]

As for your fodder characters, yes some of them can become important later. But it's impossible that all of these new characters will in this arc. Oda already struggle to give all the strawhat their arc moment and you want that all those have some more screen time later ? I hope they rest in peace.

No, I don't want anything. But I would think that there is a reason for Oda to made BlueGilly out to be so competent. Right.
Yes, you are certainly right about the strawhat moment. But Oda juggle his main characters much much much better than other series.

If this manga is published in a weekly magazine it is because it is intended to be read weekly.

I don't think I would dispute that. But common, you don't think Eyeshield 21 is read better in one go even though it is weekly. Or *insert whatever." So far the chapters as they stance along go from average to good to excellent at time. I meant just a few weeks ago people are fanboy all over Law, Doflamingo, etc. But, just wait and see what he have install for the tournament. By the time this arc end, and if everything turn out awesome. Would you guys eat your words?? If it isn't, then I would admit I got it wrong.


I think I beat the dead horse too much now.

Okay, so you guys are all saying, the best way to do this is skipped everything and just Luffy vs Don Chinjao. Tell me how you would write that. Oh and it seemed everything happened in real time. Also, who know what Oda want. Maybe he didn't want to show what happened to Law altogether. And Law seemingly disappear for the next 7-8 chapters. And that would somehow be a mystery element of this arc like what happen to Robin during Water 7. I don't know. When we are talking about future chapters with no basis to go on, tt is kinda hard. I meant gosh, Laboon arc was incredibly irrelevant.

I will ended this by saying. I will wait until this block C and D finished before I go back and reexamine on this.

 

[hoeru]

* Doesn't progress the story: the current arc as a LOT of storytelling potential going in many different directions, on which Oda has built a huge amount of anticipation in recent chapters. However, the early phases of the tournament only play a minor part in it because everyone pretty much agrees on their outcome. Therefore, a chapter such as 715 that doesn't bring any progress in the Law / Sanji / Franky / Dwarves / Sunny stories feels greatly frustrating because it simply doesn't give us any new story elements to chew on. Yes, Don Chinjao & cohort are haki users and other guys in block C are strong. Is that a surprise? No.

But it does progress the story as the tournament is Luffy's plotline of the whole arc. Why should Oda leave out the title character? In favor of what? Fan-hyped characters that were only meant to be recurring from the beginning?

The tournament is actually quite a huge part, as it has four melée groups at the start, and an important prize to win. And it's part of Doflamingo's plan to isolate Luffy from the rest of the alliance.

* Filler characters: I think we all agree that many tournament fighters are one-shot characters we won't see ever after. A couple of them will definitely play their part in the upcoming arc, and I for one sure hope to see more of the Chinjao gang, Ricky & Rebecca, Bellamy, and Cavendish & Barto. The rest ? Dust to dust. Nevertheless, Oda showcases them in a redudant manner (we've had at least two named introduction panels for most major fighters in blocks B & C, one early on and one during their block) that feels like he is trying to impose them on us, rather than giving them a genuine importance in the plot through storytelling alone.

And what actually makes believe this? As far as shown, no one is dead, but only injured. Some more some less. All Oda does is giving many characters names that just aren't strong enough to survive a melée only the strongest is allowed to head on to the next round.

Much better than keeping them unnamed in the manga and make the names show up in a databook or the SBS only, so those names become canon to all readers right away.

* Detached from the main story: from what we're told, the New World is all about World Gov, Corsairs, Emperors and how the Strawhats & allies will rise up to the challenge to become major players in this era. However, with the exception of Jesus Burghess, none of the (still going) tournament fighters is seriously linked to any of that as far as we know (yet). A bit of the underworld, foreign kingdoms, Barto's mysterious mera-mera recipient, and that's it. The tournament events could be told in any generic shonen manga with little to no adaptation effort, i.e the new content that they bring feels only partly related to One Piece such as we currently know it. Maybe some of the characters and kingdoms mentionned will play a part in the future, but right now we don't know it for sure, and that's what makes them frustrating when there's already so much we don't know about. The potential is there, it's just not being exploited at the moment.

Well, that doesn't make quite sense, does it? How can a plot line that has the title character in title character init, and that is an important piece of the current arc, be "detached" as you say just by Oda giving some of Luffy's opponents a bit of background?

Sure we can't see what Oda is up until now - that's the nature of an ongoing and unfinished story. But from what we've learned so far, the World Government's influence on the New World is most likely down to zero even though they keep maintaining two Marine bases there.

and by the repeated breaks

Repeated breaks. Well, last time Oda was on break, he stayed in a hospital. This time it's one of the regular ones to prepare the next volume, or start to deal on the next movie or databook or - more importantly - the next artbook.

Okay, so you guys are all saying, the best way to do this is skipped everything and just Luffy vs Don Chinjao. Tell me how you would write that.

I'm totally sure they only want to see Luffy taking up the Mera Mera no Mi assertively without even knowing who Luffy actually fought, not even Chinjao.