Discussion Three Great Powers

[McNuss]

Er, the World Government had some problems with Whitebeard's crew, and Whitebeard wasn't really fighting until near the end. If the World Government would win against a Yonkou or two, then they'd have no need for the shichibukai nor would they have forced the shichibukai to help them against Whitebeard under the threat of losing the status, like Jinbei. As per manga, the Yonkou would not start a war with each other or against the Marines because it'd result in a Pyrrhic victory, which would make them easier pickings for the next opponent. Same with the Marines, and why they're not going to start a fight unless they know they can wipe out a Yonkou crew with minimal losses. THe three emperors are trying to gather power in order to have a decisive victory rather than one with tons of losses, which would make other enemies think twice before challenging them.

The Yonkou don't want to do that though, even though they have territories.

Only 4 out of 7 Shishibukai were really fighting for them in the war. Blackbeard and Jinbe had betrayed them before, Hancock was sabotaging them all the time, Mihawk and Doflamingo were mostly toying around, they already considered Moriah a failure at that time...
They stopped Oars Jr, who otherwise would have been crushed by an Admiral or Garp or Sengoku...
In the end Whitebeard and Ace were dead, Jozu, Oars Jr, Curiel, Jinbe and Ivankov and Luffy were taken out while on the Marines side, well there's John Giant and Lacroix and Lons...
The sheer comparison here speaks for itself, the Marines vastly overpower a single Yonko. And honestly with 4 out 5 Admiral levels still in top shape I doubt even the Red Hair Pirates could have done much.
Of course military leaders like Sengoku or Akainu say they need the Shishibukai since it is their job to guarantee maximum efficiency at minimum casualties. But powerwise the Marines alone already vastly overpower any other force.
Two Shishibukai (Jinbe and Doflamingo) were secretly allied with a Yonko, Two out of the 5 Yonko introduced have dealings with CP0, while another can directly speak with the Gorosei...
The system isn't as easy as a+b>c, rather it existed to keep the world in a state of balance that prevents war at all costs and allows the CDs to live a live full of pleasures.
That balance is now screwed and instead of dealing with singular threats as the previous system guaranteed, the Marines now have to deal with everything at once.

 

[M3J]

They were still fighting and helping the Marines, and if Hancock was sabotaging them, they'd have realized that. I think she was only helping Luffy, but that's it.

The Marines did not vastly overpower a Yonkou though, and it took Blackbeard and his crew to kill Whitebeard. Without the shichibukai, the battle could have gone more in Whitebeard's favor. Plus, this is the Marines' turf, where Sengoku could plan better.

Why would the Marines need shichibukai if they vastly overpower any other force? Why would they allow the strongest pirates to roam free if they can beat them? Why would they need a balance of power that includes the bad guys? It makes no sense.

 

[kkck]

To me it never looked like the shichibukai were that determinant a force at marineford. most of them were not even injured, which is a feat but also suggests they weren't exactly bending over backwards to be helpful. IIRC the bulk of what they did was....

1.- Moria taking out oar's jr.
2.- doflamingo having a small confrontation with jozu and crocodile.
3.- mihawk taking it easy on luffy and fighting vista for a bit.


And... that is it. So in context: Moria was arguably the most helpful one. however his contribution was for the most part taking out someone that could otherwise be taken out easily by most relevant marines. doflaming didn't exactly deal any damage. And mihawk could have ended the manga were it not for luffy's plot armor and also didn't deal any damage on vista.

And then you have blackbeard, hancock and jinbe.... BB didn't even show up for most of the battle and when he did he had already finished trashing ID and went on to fight sengoku after killing WB. jinbe bent himself backwards fighting the marines. And hancock protected luffy and actually took out a number of pacifista.

so... none of the "loyal" shichibukai actually contributed anything to the war and the rest turned the tide against the world government basically. I'd go as far as arguing that the marines would have been better off without the shichubukai altogether given how overtly unhelpful they were.

 

[Fox666]

I agree that the Shichibukai caused more trouble than helped the government.

The Marines did not vastly overpower a Yonkou though, and it took Blackbeard and his crew to kill Whitebeard. Without the shichibukai, the battle could have gone more in Whitebeard's favor. Plus, this is the Marines' turf, where Sengoku could plan better.

Whitebeard was half-dead by that point. It was definitely worse to deal with Blackbeard and his new crew.

Logically speaking, Blackbeard killed Whitebeard so easily killed that he definitely was a bigger treat. Plus he stole Whitebeard ability.

 

[aster4jaden]

Balance and the WG reigning supreme is the same. What the WG fears most are not pirates, it is revolution.

An active war against the Yonko would disturb the balance, countries would be torn apart and the WG's public support would weaken. There really is no reason to wage war with them, even though they technically could, but the downsides would outweigh the benefits.

Keep in mind that while we see the WG's evil doings, most citizens don't. They never encounter a Tenryubito, when one comes to your country, that's a big event. Still, in order for the CDs to do what they want, an environment of stability has to be created, an infinite status quo. The Yonko are part of that Status Quo, they are the "Evil" that justifies the existence of "Justice".

Because they disturb the balance. They are not something that should exist in any context as they threaten the WG's very existence.

The Yonko don't do that, they don't inspire citizens to revolt against the government. The Yonko can't change the world as they would only destroy it instead.

I could not of said this any better, I really feel that the Yonko position was created to cater to the ego's of extremely powerful Pirates and prevent them from uniting and being a threat to the WG.

I mean if you're a Emperor why would you share leadership with another and be a Equal.

 

[minion]

just imagine, how if revolutioner army conquer alabasta... who's side sh will stand behind..?

lol...

 

[McNuss]

They were still fighting and helping the Marines, and if Hancock was sabotaging them, they'd have realized that. I think she was only helping Luffy, but that's it.

The Marines did not vastly overpower a Yonkou though, and it took Blackbeard and his crew to kill Whitebeard. Without the shichibukai, the battle could have gone more in Whitebeard's favor. Plus, this is the Marines' turf, where Sengoku could plan better.

Why would the Marines need shichibukai if they vastly overpower any other force? Why would they allow the strongest pirates to roam free if they can beat them? Why would they need a balance of power that includes the bad guys? It makes no sense.

Hancock helping Luffy led to an increase of 200 strong Pirates including Invankov, Inazuma, Jinbe, Crocodile, Daz Bones, Buggy and the crucial Mr. 3. She also stole the key for Luffy and was attacking Pacifistas and male Marines including Smoker. If that is not sabotage... Then it's betrayal.

Whitebeard was already a dead man walking by the point Blackbeard arrived. Sure it is their turf, but still the fact that their entire upper tier was still standing whereas Whitebeard's was mostly down speaks for itself. Garp who is supposedly comparable to Yonko didn't lift a finger for most of the battle, while the Admirals showed they can deal with Whitebeard pretty well.

The Shishibukai aren't allowed to roam free, technically they are prohibited taking actions against the WG. Making them Shishibukai keeps them in check, there are other reason such as Jinbe being an icon of Fishman Island and Doflamingo knowing bad secrets that better not leak.
The Marines are a military, of course they want maximum efficiency. Still facts show they if they gather all of their forces, they vastly overpower a Yonko.
It is not the Marines that decide the Shishibukai, but the WG. We already know the WG doesn't care about good or evil, Germa was allowed to be warmongering nazi mercenaries until they tried to ally with Big Mom/"allied" with Luffy. They just want to keep a status quo that the CDs can exploit.

 

[M3J]

To me it never looked like the shichibukai were that determinant a force at marineford. most of them were not even injured, which is a feat but also suggests they weren't exactly bending over backwards to be helpful. IIRC the bulk of what they did was....

1.- Moria taking out oar's jr.
2.- doflamingo having a small confrontation with jozu and crocodile.
3.- mihawk taking it easy on luffy and fighting vista for a bit.


And... that is it. So in context: Moria was arguably the most helpful one. however his contribution was for the most part taking out someone that could otherwise be taken out easily by most relevant marines. doflaming didn't exactly deal any damage. And mihawk could have ended the manga were it not for luffy's plot armor and also didn't deal any damage on vista.

And then you have blackbeard, hancock and jinbe.... BB didn't even show up for most of the battle and when he did he had already finished trashing ID and went on to fight sengoku after killing WB. jinbe bent himself backwards fighting the marines. And hancock protected luffy and actually took out a number of pacifista.

so... none of the "loyal" shichibukai actually contributed anything to the war and the rest turned the tide against the world government basically. I'd go as far as arguing that the marines would have been better off without the shichubukai altogether given how overtly unhelpful they were.

Moria taking out Oars Jr. helped the Marines though, no? That was quite significant, and I don't think it'd have been easy for Oars to be taken out by anyone less than admiral or Doflamingo as well (didn't Doflamingo cut his leg off?).

Hancock helping Luffy led to an increase of 200 strong Pirates including Invankov, Inazuma, Jinbe, Crocodile, Daz Bones, Buggy and the crucial Mr. 3. She also stole the key for Luffy and was attacking Pacifistas and male Marines including Smoker. If that is not sabotage... Then it's betrayal.

Whitebeard was already a dead man walking by the point Blackbeard arrived. Sure it is their turf, but still the fact that their entire upper tier was still standing whereas Whitebeard's was mostly down speaks for itself. Garp who is supposedly comparable to Yonko didn't lift a finger for most of the battle, while the Admirals showed they can deal with Whitebeard pretty well.

The Shishibukai aren't allowed to roam free, technically they are prohibited taking actions against the WG. Making them Shishibukai keeps them in check, there are other reason such as Jinbe being an icon of Fishman Island and Doflamingo knowing bad secrets that better not leak.
The Marines are a military, of course they want maximum efficiency. Still facts show they if they gather all of their forces, they vastly overpower a Yonko.
It is not the Marines that decide the Shishibukai, but the WG. We already know the WG doesn't care about good or evil, Germa was allowed to be warmongering nazi mercenaries until they tried to ally with Big Mom/"allied" with Luffy. They just want to keep a status quo that the CDs can exploit.

Are we not talking about the war itself and not before? As far as I know though, she wasn't going solely after the Marines or Smoker, and she was defending Luffy, not really attacking. If she did betray them openly, then how was she still a shichibukai whereas Jinbei, who refused to participate, lost his status?

Whitebeard wasn't dead yet, he was still hurting Blackbeard and despite all the damage he took from them, still stayed alive long enough to tell Blackbeard he wasn't the D that Roger was looking fo. True, but again, would they have done as well as they did without planning? Without strategy like having Akainu make Squardo stab Whitebeard? None of the admirals were able to keep Whitebeard down, they were getting beaten. Even Akainu got his ass handed to him when Whitebeard got pissed off and serious.

Other than not being able to take action against the World Government, they were allowed to do almost anything and get away with it. Smoker and Fujitora were unable to do anything and relied on the Straw Hats to take down Crocodile and Doflamingo....

 

[kkck]

Moria taking out Oars Jr. helped the Marines though, no? That was quite significant, and I don't think it'd have been easy for Oars to be taken out by anyone less than admiral or Doflamingo as well (didn't Doflamingo cut his leg off?).
....

Of course it was helpful. But oars wasn't insanely strong or anything. He was big and due to his size could cause significant destruction. But... I'd argue at least the more significant VAs could have dealt with him easily. That moria ended him is very telling because moria isn't exactly powerful, he even got fired from his shichibukai position over his weakness.

 

[M3J]

Of course it was helpful. But oars wasn't insanely strong or anything. He was big and due to his size could cause significant destruction. But... I'd argue at least the more significant VAs could have dealt with him easily. That moria ended him is very telling because moria isn't exactly powerful, he even got fired from his shichibukai position over his weakness.

How would you be able to argue that? I mean, I'm likely missing something, but Oars seemed effective enough, and he managed to survive long enough to bring Moby Dick further into Marineford before going out.

Moria isn't powerful, but he's still useful because of his ability. Interestingly though, couldn't he have just stolen shadows?

 

[kkck]

How would you be able to argue that? I mean, I'm likely missing something, but Oars seemed effective enough, and he managed to survive long enough to bring Moby Dick further into Marineford before going out.

Moria isn't powerful, but he's still useful because of his ability. Interestingly though, couldn't he have just stolen shadows?

Moria probably wasn't strong enough to steal shadows from anyone who matters on his own.

With oars there are two things to consider. How strong he is individually and how valuable he is as. Military asset so to speak. So we know he isn't specially powerful and i would argue that most people who can defeat moria wouldn't struggle with oars. Then there is the military part. Oars definitely had uses beyond his ability to specifically take out strong people due to his size and strength. Like when he carried a ship to get the wb pirates into the plaza.

 

[Fox666]

Of course Oars III is stronger than Moriah. His bounty was 550,000,000 and I don't see any reason to believe he didn't lived up to it.

Kuma and Doflamingo helped to defeat Oars III, and I doubt Moriah could do it alone - otherwise why was he so crazy confident because he acquired his grandfather's corpse?

Moriah was delusional that with Oars' corpse (with Luffy's shadow) he could defeat Kaido:

IMHO this implies Moriah was never strong like Oars, if you are wondering how strong Moriah was in the past, before he turned fat and lazy.

 

[aster4jaden]

Of course Oars III is stronger than Moriah. His bounty was 550,000,000 and I don't see any reason to believe he didn't lived up to it.

Kuma and Doflamingo helped to defeat Oars III, and I doubt Moriah could do it alone - otherwise why was he so crazy confident because he acquired his grandfather's corpse?

Moriah was delusional that with Oars' corpse (with Luffy's shadow) he could defeat Kaido:

IMHO this implies Moriah was never strong like Oars, if you are wondering how strong Moriah was in the past, before he turned fat and lazy.

I love his Devil Fruit but I can see he was definitely the weakest of the Shichibukai.

 

[McNuss]

Moria taking out Oars Jr. helped the Marines though, no? That was quite significant, and I don't think it'd have been easy for Oars to be taken out by anyone less than admiral or Doflamingo as well (didn't Doflamingo cut his leg off?).

Are we not talking about the war itself and not before? As far as I know though, she wasn't going solely after the Marines or Smoker, and she was defending Luffy, not really attacking. If she did betray them openly, then how was she still a shichibukai whereas Jinbei, who refused to participate, lost his status?

Whitebeard wasn't dead yet, he was still hurting Blackbeard and despite all the damage he took from them, still stayed alive long enough to tell Blackbeard he wasn't the D that Roger was looking fo. True, but again, would they have done as well as they did without planning? Without strategy like having Akainu make Squardo stab Whitebeard? None of the admirals were able to keep Whitebeard down, they were getting beaten. Even Akainu got his ass handed to him when Whitebeard got pissed off and serious.

Other than not being able to take action against the World Government, they were allowed to do almost anything and get away with it. Smoker and Fujitora were unable to do anything and relied on the Straw Hats to take down Crocodile and Doflamingo....

Oars Jr. was rendered immobile by Doflamingo before Moria could hit him. Anyways had Oars made it to the scaffold, he wouldn't have gotten past Sengoku and Garp. Alternatively Aokiji could have frozen him solid or Akainu could have burned him to crisp. Oars Jr is strong but his charge was dumb and it was more of a lucky coincidence that he landed exactly where the Wall would pop up.

Hancock attacked male Marines and Pacifistas quite openly. It is implied multiple times that all her actions are forgiven because of her beauty, whether that's an effect other fruit, her CoC or her actual beauty, or a combination of all three is unknown.

Whitebeard only ever injured Akainu, and that was in close quarter combat, which also caused Whitebeard to suffer a fatal head injury. Whenever the Admirals kept their distance they could get hits in without Whitebeard being able to fight back, as both Kizaru and Akainu demonstrated. I don't really see how one can say the Admirals got beaten when Aokiji showed right at the start that he can deal with Whitebeard'attacks.
Since the Yonko are locked within the New World and it takes them time to get out of there, the Marines could always prepare.

Actually that's not true. In Alabasta's case, Smoker was only a captain. That's why he went for the Rainpowder ship, to collect evidence against Crocodile. In the end Tashigi arrested Crocodile, implying that with enough evidence, any Marine could do that.

In Dressrosa's case Fujitora could have ended Doflamingo right away, just like he stripped Law of his position. But Fujitora was playing a gamble, he bet on the Pirates to win, to make it look like the WG is helpless, all in order to prove that the Shishibukai system is bad. People think of Fujitora as the nice Admiral when he is actually a crazy extremist that gauged his own eyes out.

 

[kkck]

Of course Oars III is stronger than Moriah. His bounty was 550,000,000 and I don't see any reason to believe he didn't lived up to it.

Kuma and Doflamingo helped to defeat Oars III, and I doubt Moriah could do it alone - otherwise why was he so crazy confident because he acquired his grandfather's corpse?

Moriah was delusional that with Oars' corpse (with Luffy's shadow) he could defeat Kaido:

IMHO this implies Moriah was never strong like Oars, if you are wondering how strong Moriah was in the past, before he turned fat and lazy.

The main problem oars had at the war.... that was his size, his main asset, just made him a big target for everyone, including moria. Oars jr never did successfully defend himself from shichibukai attacks, all he could do was take them. That said, it is true that under different circumstances he might be a bigger threat. But otherwise he is just nukeable.

Also, yeah, moria was delusional in thinking oar's could defeat kaido. BUT there is also the fact that his version of oars was modified and booster by luffy's fighting style and moria's own shadow manipulation powers. And moria was weak but only by shichibukai standards. And bounties at that point are not necessarily that indicative of power level. Consider big mom's crew for instance... whose top executives like oven or daifuku have 300 mil bounties. I would still put those ahead of the likes of moria or oars jr...

 

[M3J]

Moria probably wasn't strong enough to steal shadows from anyone who matters on his own.

With oars there are two things to consider. How strong he is individually and how valuable he is as. Military asset so to speak. So we know he isn't specially powerful and i would argue that most people who can defeat moria wouldn't struggle with oars. Then there is the military part. Oars definitely had uses beyond his ability to specifically take out strong people due to his size and strength. Like when he carried a ship to get the wb pirates into the plaza.

I dunno, it took attacks upon attacks to finally take him down and even then, he was still alive and managed to move a huge-ass ship. He's an easier target, but also resilient enough.

 

[Rmstorm]

Of course Oars III is stronger than Moriah. His bounty was 550,000,000 and I don't see any reason to believe he didn't lived up to it.

Kuma and Doflamingo helped to defeat Oars III, and I doubt Moriah could do it alone - otherwise why was he so crazy confident because he acquired his grandfather's corpse?

Moriah was delusional that with Oars' corpse (with Luffy's shadow) he could defeat Kaido:

IMHO this implies Moriah was never strong like Oars, if you are wondering how strong Moriah was in the past, before he turned fat and lazy.

Moriah's right though, even Big Mom wanted Luffy's soul to make powerful homies. Kaido also said Luffy has got extremely strong will power.

Luffy using CoC while unconcious made Kaido, a yonko nervous.

 

[aster4jaden]

crazy extremist that gauged his own eyes out

I never thought of him like that, but that's a cool thought that I like.