You are having a hard time understanding because you're trying to look too deep into details. From a literary perspective, you do not have to include or acknowledge actual historical events to make your fictional story fit into the real universe. I could simply say "different choices were made, and it didn't happen that way in this story." There are all kinds of zombie movies that take place during the time period of the past 20 years. Does this mean we are not to believe they took place on our earth, in our universe, simply because we know zombies don't exist? Do you say, "Wait! all the humans got killed in this zombie move, yet I still exist?" A story being fiction automatically has the rights to change things.
Ah I'm just really conscious of these things because I do physics (albeit not very accomplished lol.) Since we're on this topic, I'll try to make some parallels to our real world.
For their technological advancement, I think the most promising piece of evidence would be the use of compressed gas in canisters (for 3D maneuvering.) In our real world, the concept of pressurised liquids stored in cans date from the late 1700s/ early 1800s, when they tried to invent carbonated drinks. However, compressing gas involves a leap in technology, since compressing gas into containers under high pressure is much more dangerous. It took about 100 years to take away much of the risk when dealing with pressure vessels.
The second piece of invention that is outstanding is canned food (shown as canned herring.) This concept also dates back to the late 1700s/ early 1800s, although they used glass jars to begin with. They then involved tin cans, but it wasn't for another 100 years or so before they perfected the canning technique.
I can safely say the current technology in SnK Universe is at least early 20th century real world standard, but since the two aforementioned inventions look so refined, I can probably add about 50 years to the count. I do notice the lack of technology involving electricity for the general public, but given the situation it is most likely impossible to get enough energy around the town. Maintaining power plants, utility poles for overhead power lines and the likes are probably not an effective investment. Since the general public does not benefit from electrical technology, it is natural that it doesn't get developed.
Whether it is due to a lack of fuel/resources or simply being a non-necessity, cars/trains that should have been developed seem to be non-existent on the SnK timeline. Since their physics seem to agree with our real world, so I'm quite certain it will develop similar technology after this Titan crisis.
(Just that I still wouldn't exist lol, unless Mikasa is my ancestor.)
---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------
(I've updated the first post with more spoiler and bits of translation on the spoiler people!!!)
Ok, how about this. Let's say it really is 850 B.C. I understand what Fayte wrote, but just hear me out.
Now forget the current storyline, let's say we are in 12th century. Medieval with gunpowder, even some steampunk technology. The world has been a long time under titan control. The only human survivors develop a timemachine with steampunk technology to go back in time and try to change the course of history. Imagine something like this: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111220024349/timemachine/images/5/55/The_time_machine_1.jpg
But still, they couldn't have known what excatly to do. What could they do in past, that could change the present if they can't even fight them off now. This is also foreshadowed a few times: http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/27/14
Still, they send back titan shifters together with all the technology and science about titans. They explain to the human leaders what was going to happen, and together, with their technology and human leaders influence, they manage to prepare the walls before the outbreak. The collosal titans for the walls were maybe prisoners injected with injection like Eren, but a different one. One that would make them unable to leave their titan state and somehow desinged to create the walls around it. After that, as long the sunlight doesn't fall on those titans inside, they will remain that way, otherwise they could go havoc! http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/34/13
The human shifters from 12th century also explain the human leaders that, by their calendar, this year now is 850 B.C. Since the human population that moved inside the walls embraced the 12th century culture together with their technology, they started to call it year 850 as well. They left out the B.C. part so not to confuse and reveal anything to general population. It would also explain the idea of religion that was brought from the future: http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/16/35
Actually, I just realized that the titans came 107 years before year 845. Meaning the outbreak began in 738. So before that was when they came from the future. I'm too lazy to edit the years above, but it doesn't change anything so just keep that in mind..
Anyways, where was I, ah.. Titan shifters and royalty were working together, trying to find a way to maybe kill the Ape titan(s), who are the cause of invasion, but at one point the royalty that was inside the wall decided that they have no interest in what is going to happen in 2000 years for now. They have a nice big wall that's been protecting them, and they live a luxurius life and don't want to change anything. Basically, they are rotten to the core!
Annie, Ryner and Berth start breaking down the walls. Annie and Berth are focused on their mission, but Ryner couldn't handle it, developing a split personality, that explained a lot of weird behavior like saving Connie and generaly behaving like a really nice guy.
Eren's basement: Time Machine? With all the knowledge of the situation stored in some way?
Historia Reiss, maybe an heir to the throne, maybe that's why she is so important. Maybe the titan shifter want to make a Coup d'état on royalty and use Historia to restore autority later on.
Ok, how about this. Let's say it really is 850 B.C. I understand what Fayte wrote, but just hear me out.
Now forget the current storyline, let's say we are in 12th century. Medieval with gunpowder, even some steampunk technology. The world has been a long time under titan control. The only human survivors develop a timemachine with steampunk technology to go back in time and try to change the course of history. Imagine something like this: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111220024349/timemachine/images/5/55/The_time_machine_1.jpg
But still, they couldn't have known what excatly to do. What could they do in past, that could change the present if they can't even fight them off now. This is also foreshadowed a few times: http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/27/14
Still, they send back titan shifters together with all the technology and science about titans. They explain to the human leaders what was going to happen, and together, with their technology and human leaders influence, they manage to prepare the walls before the outbreak. The collosal titans for the walls were maybe prisoners injected with injection like Eren, but a different one. One that would make them unable to leave their titan state and somehow desinged to create the walls around it. After that, as long the sunlight doesn't fall on those titans inside, they will remain that way, otherwise they could go havoc! http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/34/13
The human shifters from 12th century also explain the human leaders that, by their calendar, this year now is 850 B.C. Since the human population that moved inside the walls embraced the 12th century culture together with their technology, they started to call it year 850 as well. They left out the B.C. part so not to confuse and reveal anything to general population. It would also explain the idea of religion that was brought from the future: http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/16/35
Actually, I just realized that the titans came 107 years before year 845. Meaning the outbreak began in 738. So before that was when they came from the future. I'm too lazy to edit the years above, but it doesn't change anything so just keep that in mind..
Anyways, where was I, ah.. Titan shifters and royalty were working together, trying to find a way to maybe kill the Ape titan(s), who are the cause of invasion, but at one point the royalty that was inside the wall decided that they have no interest in what is going to happen in 2000 years for now. They have a nice big wall that's been protecting them, and they live a luxurius life and don't want to change anything. Basically, they are rotten to the core!
Annie, Ryner and Berth start breaking down the walls. Annie and Berth are focused on their mission, but Ryner couldn't handle it, developing a split personality, that explained a lot of weird behavior like saving Connie and generaly behaving like a really nice guy.
Eren's basement: Time Machine? With all the knowledge of the situation stored in some way?
Historia Reiss, maybe an heir to the throne, maybe that's why she is so important. Maybe the titan shifter want to make a Coup d'état on royalty and use Historia to restore autority later on.
Ah, I have never thought about sending resources back in order to prepare for the crisis. This is certainly something to consider.
Over the month, I don't think I have come across of a single comment fully in support of Time Leap or whatever you call it (at least within the non-Japanese community.) My idea for Time Leap is actually very very broad, and I suppose ImmortalZodd you wouldn't like time machines to be involved either? :P But two main reasons I can't deny the possibility:
- Author's said inspiration from Muv-Luv Alt
- First sequence in Chapter 1 (the mysterious girl in one of the first panels)
Inspiration doesn't necessarily mean an exact copy, and one thing for certain, I can see there are tons of settings other than a time-travelling device that could have inspired SnK.
However, due to the nature of Chapter 1 (being extremely similar to MLA opening sequence,) our of the three possibilities whom the girl could have come from (dream, past, future,) I weigh the third option equally, or even heavier, than the first two.
Random point: (Lol dude your year-talk confuses me :P ) It can't be B.C., because 845 B.C. would come after 850 B.C., which doesn't seem to be the case. Also, I doubt anyone would be counting down to a future year (i.e. year 0) when they do their calendars lol. Just a minor point.
I also haven't thought about the Ape being not from this time. I can say for sure, Titans are definitely NOT common knowledge prior to year 738. This means they could either:
- Be creation of human
- Come from another dimension/world/time
- Live in hiding for the history of humanity
And after 107 years of struggle, in 845, we get the Chapter titled: To you, in 2000 years. Remember what Reiner says to Ymir in the Chapter 46? "Do you think this world has a future?" Let's assume the title in Chapter 1 is a reference to a story underplot, this highly suggests the world is still intact in the year 845+2000. Now, if it were a pure Titan victory against humanity, do you really think Isayama would phrase it as "To you?" For a human(-struggling)-centric series, I doubt the "You" would be referring to anything other than human, or at least "You" must be on the side of Eren and Mikasa. The worst case scenario would be, the final humans have gone into hiding. The better scenario would be, Titans have been purged from this world, and this is a simple retelling of a story.
A very interesting point in the following, not necessarily about anything to do with the Time talk. This probably goes better in the Ape Titan thread but I'll say it here for now. I will connect the following points together.
Finding the Ape means R&B going home.
Ymir's safety is not guaranteed.
R&B have once been attacked by Ymir, most likely before they have found their Shifter powers.
The Ape has something to do with people turning into Titans (presumably in Connie's village.) (I predict that Ymir is right on this. Reiner stops her from guessing who the real enemy is, meaning he thinks she's on the right track. Therefore, everything she has said in Chapter 46 should be things Reiner knows are true.)
These Titans can roam at night.
Disclaimer: I haven't eliminated all the impossible, nor have I considered all the possibilities, but from first impression this is what I get:
The Ape has the method to turn people into special Titans whom can roam at night. Assuming the R&B and Ape are on the same side (because finding Ape somehow = home,) after Ymir's attack on R&B, they could have then been 'saved' by the Ape to join the its cause.
This is also the reason I wouldn't exactly say R&B are directly involved with the Time-play, but rather they have simply been convinced of a dying world that cannot be saved. I personally don't think a time-traveller has come on-screen yet, if there would ever be one. Foreseeing the general direction this world is heading to doesn't necessarily mean knowing exactly what would happen. Simply "despair" in Reiner's heart can do the trick.
What I'm more concerned about is when Reiner (rhetorically) asks, "Do you think this world has a future?" If I assume "this world" means humanity the way we know it, there are (at least) two ways to interpret this:
- This "humanity" is doing something that R&B tries to prevent. Meaning humanity is ultimately destroying itself.
- This "humanity" is the weaker of the world and thus will naturally die off, sooner or later, to the stronger race.
Will continue writing more later, I'm going to eat lol.
Random point: (Lol dude your year-talk confuses me :P ) It can't be B.C., because 845 B.C. would come after 850 B.C., which doesn't seem to be the case. Also, I doubt anyone would be counting down to a future year (i.e. year 0) when they do their calendars lol. Just a minor point.
Yeah, but Ymir didn't seem to know exactly what that titan is. She only realized it's importance by Ryner and Berth reaction.
And no, I wouldn't like time machines nor time travel to be involved at all. But since it's likely it will happen, I'm just trying to generata some ideas
I even like your idea about Mikasa having an ability to send Eren back in time, instead of there being a time machine. But then I just can't get around the 2000 years scope, ie. why would there be identical Mikasa and Eren 2000 years in the future.
Yeah, but Ymir didn't seem to know exactly what that titan is. She only realized it's importance by Ryner and Berth reaction.
And no, I wouldn't like time machines nor time travel to be involved at all. But since it's likely it will happen, I'm just trying to generata some ideas
I even like your idea about Mikasa having an ability to send Eren back in time, instead of there being a time machine. But then I just can't get around the 2000 years scope, ie. why would there be identical Mikasa and Eren 2000 years in the future.
I think there are two main possibilities. "Finding the Ape, then they can go home" could mean:
- Finding that Ape, let it declare 'mission complete' and take them home.
- Finding that Ape, finishing it off, then go home.
I'm gonna leave this idea open-ended lol...
And yes, do keep the ideas coming :P The more the merrier haha!
I guess when I first started this thread, I wasn't intending to fit everything together congruently. In fact, I didn't link the title (2000 years) to 'sending Eren back,' i.e. I was thinking, sending Eren back happens within the lifetime of Mikasa. If that makes it clearer
I can't be helped but think about how weirdly the way Reiner's talk in the latest chapter is worded.
Here he seems to be implying that they initially thought the "coordinate" they were looking for was Eren. But R&B are not at all sure about that being the case. Also, "when the time comes, the search will definitely be much easier if Christa is here" on their side.
Also, in the following page, it's made clear they can't go on with the mission just yet, but "the next time we come here...". They are positive about the additional info/resources they are gathering. Berth: "and then... we'll never come here again". Reiner: "yeah... and then all our work will be done".
C'mon, are they really planning to return to the wall at a later time? After blowing up their cover? And managing to rescue Annie and win Christa over to their cause as well?
Also, the words "time", "here" and "then" pop up an awful lot in a few sentences.
This is essentially why I'm more and more thinking the Warriors group can travel through time and are in a loop of sorts. They are looking for a "coordinate". I find that very strange. They are not looking for a "person", a "thing", a "place", a "target" or for "something". They specifically use the "coordinate" term (although I hope this is just not a case of sloppy translation).
Coordinates have sense when you consider them in a spatial sense (ie a geographic location), but time is a coordinate as well (from modern science we do know the space-time, understandable as a 4D coordinate system, is a very actual thing).
So in my mind, R&B are looking for something important which they know should be happening/presenting itself somewhere inside the walls at some point in time.
They thought they found the "coordinate" in the person of Eren, hence they opted to kidnap him. But still, it's very evident they are not at all sure Eren is what they were looking for. In fact they do try and make provisions for their next attempt, if it turns out Eren was not the "coordinate".
They did collect additional intelligence during this expedition: they found out about Christa's true identity, and also about /THAT/.
They are withdrawing for the time being, but the next time (ie. in the next loop) they come here (ie. in this place and time).
Oh, and I would say their "hometown" (another recurring word which often pops up but seems like holding a much deeper sense then in the usual usage for the term) might be a place in another time too: they always talk about it like they've been missing from it for an awful lot of time, and also is somewhere they won't be able to easily return to anytime soon. It's been said they'll be able to return to their hometown only after completing the mission, and finding out about the Ape location seems to be part of that as well. So, maybe they're stuck in the time loop until the mission is completed.
The coordinate could also be both in space and time. Maybe for ground zero so they can stop it? It would make sense that Crista would come in handy since her family was passed a secret for generations? So she could know what, where and when 'the outbrake' happened.
And I like the idea about them coming back in another loop, since it just didn't make sense them talking about going back in the current context.
I also agree about their hometown being at another time, Reiner even hinted it pretty hard here: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/shingeki_no_kyojin/c042/15.html
Just one thing I want to add and put it out there for speculation.
Assuming Ymir has some sort of understanding/grasp of the whole situation, while Reiner doesn't particularly deny her suspicion:
"Finding the Ape means they can go home"
Any idea how to slot this into your "coordinate" theory? (I'm gonna call it that in the first post lol)
Or are there still certain bits of evidence missing?
Also, Annie's crystallisation could have anticipated future people to un-crystallise her. Who knows. In that case, her promise to her father about "going back home" will finally make sense.
Even though I started the thread, I'm sorta somewhat against time loops because it can get really messy, but I personally love the idea, and currently your posts make the most sense for the few phrases they use ("coordinate," "next time" etc.) as well as Christa's role in their agenda.
I think you are reading too much into things. I know the author likes to use small details as links to events as the story advances but this idea of time travel from the future looks kinda vague. Maybe future chapters will show i am wrong but right now i prefer not to buy this hypothesis. Better be surprised than disappointed later.
Assuming Ymir has some sort of understanding/grasp of the whole situation, while Reiner doesn't particularly deny her suspicion:
"Finding the Ape means they can go home"
Any idea how to slot this into your "coordinate" theory? (I'm gonna call it that in the first post lol)
Or are there still certain bits of evidence missing?
Also, Annie's crystallisation could have anticipated future people to un-crystallise her. Who knows. In that case, her promise to her father about "going back home" will finally make sense.
Even though I started the thread, I'm sorta somewhat against time loops because it can get really messy, but I personally love the idea, and currently your posts make the most sense for the few phrases they use ("coordinate," "next time" etc.) as well as Christa's role in their agenda.
I think A LOT of evidence is still missing regarding, well, basically everything in the manga, really.
When it comes to the Ape Titan, I'm really clueless.
The thing about the Ape is, R&B really looked to be surprised by seeing it. I can't tell why exactly, ie if they weren't expecting to see the Ape in the slightest or for some other reason.
I honestly don't know how the Ape could fit in a time-leap context. It's evident he hasn't been up with humanity's whereabouts in recent times, but still it seems like he has investigated humans before. Maybe it is looping in time as well and, if humans didn't have the 3DM gear in the previous loop, then its comment about it ("you developed something interesting") might make sense. Just a very casual guess though.
BTW, I don't really think Ymir has much of a grasp about what's really going on. She knows something, most likely, but she's far from having the whole picture. I'm of this opinion mainly because of how she deducted stuff based on whatever R&B where willing to talk about and their reaction to the Ape. Might also be she knows more than she's willing to show, although I don't think that's the case.
Oh, and given how Reiner wanted to be secretive to Ymir's questioning about the Ape, I think there's a mild chance that the /THAT/ Reiner was mentioning could indeed be the Ape. Given they didn't know about the Ape before seeing it at Utgard, this added info might play in their favor with completing the mission "the next time".
I'm still not at all sure myself about how likely it might be for shifters to be leaping or looping in time, but I really can't deny there definitely is something pesky going on about how lots of things are being worded here. It's so confusing and makes very little sense unless you trow some bizarre theory around. It just happens a time-leaping motif seems to fit-in pretty nicely.
And yeah, things tend to get incredibly messy when authors start playing with the time continuity, but we shall see.
I think A LOT of evidence is still missing regarding, well, basically everything in the manga, really.
When it comes to the Ape Titan, I'm really clueless.
The thing about the Ape is, R&B really looked to be surprised by seeing it. I can't tell why exactly, ie if they weren't expecting to see the Ape in the slightest or for some other reason.
I honestly don't know how the Ape could fit in a time-leap context. It's evident he hasn't been up with humanity's whereabouts in recent times, but still it seems like he has investigated humans before. Maybe it is looping in time as well and, if humans didn't have the 3DM gear in the previous loop, then its comment about it ("you developed something interesting") might make sense. Just a very casual guess though.
BTW, I don't really think Ymir has much of a grasp about what's really going on. She knows something, most likely, but she's far from having the whole picture. I'm of this opinion mainly because of how she deducted stuff based on whatever R&B where willing to talk about and their reaction to the Ape. Might also be she knows more than she's willing to show, although I don't think that's the case.
Oh, and given how Reiner wanted to be secretive to Ymir's questioning about the Ape, I think there's a mild chance that the /THAT/ Reiner was mentioning could indeed be the Ape. Given they didn't know about the Ape before seeing it at Utgard, this added info might play in their favor with completing the mission "the next time".
I'm still not at all sure myself about how likely it might be for shifters to be leaping or looping in time, but I really can't deny there definitely is something pesky going on about how lots of things are being worded here. It's so confusing and makes very little sense unless you trow some bizarre theory around. It just happens a time-leaping motif seems to fit-in pretty nicely.
And yeah, things tend to get incredibly messy when authors start playing with the time continuity, but we shall see.
Yeah pretty much lol, there's absolutely no evidence for more or less everything but suggestions are dotted around here and there... and most are subjected to various explanations.
Judging from R&B's reaction to the Ape, it could be possible it is the /THAT/ they refer to.
As for Ymir, I think she does have a basic grasp of the situation, not fully, but she's definitely on the right track. But I'm pretty sure she knows who the real enemy is, or at least have the same knowledge as R&B on that matter.
Anyway, a long while before more new info I assume, we're probably getting some action next right? lol
Maybe? I honestly thought we were going to get 0 new info in 47, and see what we got. We might still be getting some tidbits of info in the midst of an eventual fight.
But yeah, most likely Shifters vs. Scouting Legion is bound to happen, at least in some order. I have the feeling Irvine and Armin prepared one of their badass plans, those guys are scary. Also chances are Mikasa will be severely pissed off.
But still, somehow, it just looked like Ymir was seriously confident they could grab Christa and just outrun their trailers. We shall see.
If I had to make a prediction, I'd say they manage to kidnap Christa, but Eren gets freed and Ymir dies in the process.
Well, considering how R&B were all "Eren, stop being a dick and just come with us since, you know, we don't really have to exterminate humans anymore", and that seemed to be linked at least in some regards to the Ape Titan being spotted...
I really don't know, but if I had to guess at it, R&B's mission started as a "kill all humans" project, only to drift more towards a "the info we gathered is so cool, let's retreat instead" one.
IF the time-loop is actually a thing, I think the simple fact that "we now know the Ape is involved with this" might end up being major for whatever Greater Cause the Warriors are pursuing, yes.
In a sense, yes, knowing about the Ape whereabouts, plus knowing about Christa's true identity, plus /THAT/ (unless /THAT/ was the Ape), would make her mission much easier the next time (loop).
Oh and also, it looks like R&B would have been very interested into following the Ape, if only all the mess with having to take off their cover and being chased by the Scouting Legion didn't happen.
One more idea, I'm starting to think, maybe Mikasa's tattoo has something to do with the "Coordinate." So my evidence-less speculation is, Eren turns out not to be whom they're looking for, but Mikasa and her informative tattoo.
At the moment I think there are a couple of possible reasons leading up to making Eren the coordinate.
Eren transforms during their second attack, and RBA sees the significance of that transformation as their "coordinate." Here, I assume they don't see Eren important at all prior to that. This means either:
1) Eren himself is the significant existence they've been looking for; or
2) the cause/reason for which Eren turns into a Titan is what they're looking for (and hence need Eren's help.)
Referring to a human as a "coordinate" doesn't makes sense, and ultimately (space-time aside) the word might be used to describe an event. Therefore, I'm more lenient towards the (2)nd option. In this case, I won't be surprised if Mikasa also turns out to be a Shifter later on, should RBA got it wrong.
Mikasa's (and probably her mum's) tattoo could be something Grisha picked up on. Maybe there is a secret code (or something of the sort) within the design, and Grisha notices it as an insider of the Titan crisis. If that's so, then their Oriental clan would probably be something significant later on, too. But this is me speaking with fanfic mode turned on.
The other scenario is:
where RBA knows about Eren beforehand. There are only a few scenes we've been shown where Reiner acts close to Eren, but we can also assume he does so to everyone as the 'big bro' type. The fact they don't kidnap him sooner kinda opposes this idea. Although let's say, the need for Eren to transform during their second assault is necessary, meaning they've been building up the events leading to his transformation. But Reiner's little talk with Eren before exposing himself makes me disagree with this scenario.
(Unimportant useless point, so I've put it in spoiler just so that I can say I've considered other ideas lol.)
Also, Eren knowing to injure himself in order to transform is leftover memories from his previous experience/existence. That is either his lost memories with his father, or memories of himself from another time/universe.
On a slightly related note, I'm going for Parallel Universe instead of simply Time Travelling. Time Loop is stealing from Muv-Luv Alt too much lol, also there is no way the nature of the Loop is something like Higurashi, while Steins;Gate type of Loop means any small action will affect the future (if they come from the future, they will be careful not to change it or something like that.) However, Parallel Universe solves all these problems.
Well yeah, as far as we know anything goes really. All is still that much open-ended.
Mikasa certainly stands among the most interesting figures in the manga: her origins are a bit of a mystery in itself, she's believed to be the last of her kind, her clan probably disappeared as well, the tattoo, her supernatural strength... I don't know if she's going to be a shifter as well, but even if that ends up not being the case, she certainly is special in more than one way.
As far as RBA knowing in advance Eren would be a shifter... I don't know. As I see it, either way might work:
- Maybe they knew a shifter would appear sometime inside the walls but they were unsure about its true identity (this might also partially explain why RB are so surprised with seeing the Ape later on)
- Similarly to Utsune's other option, maybe they knew Eren was going to become a shifter, but they needed to investigate something else about his transformation.
- Something else entirely
And yes, I agree possibilities explode in a lot of different way once you trow space-time into the equation. For instance, assuming time-travel is a thing in SnK, it's not even a given that People is going back in time... in fact it might very well be the other way around, with people leaping forward through time, which might solve the recurring "don't alter the past or our present will be messed up" issue with this kind of stuff.
I've been thinking to this (people traveling forward in time) several times already even before the latest chapter.
Again, assuming time travel is an actual thing, I think it would make a lot more sense for people to be traveling forward in time rather than backwards.
- Title of first chapter "To you, in 2000 years"
- The fact the Wall was built in advance of the Titan crisis seems to suggest some civilization/group from the past hold both an higher level of tech AND Titan-shifting capabilities
- Reiner looks very serious when stating "the world doesn't have a future", but still he wants to return to his place that much strongly. If Hometown = Past, that would make much more sense (at least assuming the possible demise of humanity is sooner rather than later)
- Ape Titan not knowing about humans' current level of technology (3DMG). Assuming the Ape is traveling through time himself, you would expect it to know that kind of stuff if it was from the future and had any meaningful knowledge of what happened in the past.
Alternatively, one might hypthesize that things are altered enough within each following loop that important events in the continuity are not always the same. To point out a simple instance of how much this might be import, just consider the case (again just assuming stuff here) in which shifting powers are given by the serum and Grisha injects Eren or someone else entirely.
Lastly, if any of you watched the movie Groundhog Day, you know time-loops can also work in very strange ways. Another interesting case of specific time traveling/continuity models being exposed in movies is the one in Twelve Monkeys. Notice in both movies the protagonist is trying to alter the events in some significant way, although in the latter that has to do with undoing humanity's near-extinction and a time-paradox is a crucial aspect of the story (I won't spoil it ), while in the former it's in order to stop the loop from repeating itself entirely.
Lots of possibilities, my head is hurting already :P
Thanks for rounding up those scattered additional pieces of the theory above, guys. There are some more things we should add here too (like Beatrice's bit about Ragnarok being a "future" battle of the gods against the titans).
*edit*
@Bandreus: Loved 12 Monkeys (and thanks to film school I have also seen its inspiration, La Jetée. I've also seen the film Groundhog Day was ripping off, but not all of Groundhog Day itself... Hopefully the antagonist of this story doesn't have the same kind of power as the ones in 12 Monkeys though, heh.
I want to say something general about discussing this theory though...
If people really truly don't think there's enough evidence (or preferably if they actually see evidence for another explanation to the points rounded up above), then great and more power to you, I mean it. I hope everyone will share their alternative theories! Meanwhile wouldn't it also be nice if we could keep discussion focused on a combination of fact and logical inference (i.e. our actual hypotheses and theories) and not our preconceptions/how we *feel* about alternate timeline narratives or how they tend to be written? Any trope (time travel; virus outbreaks) can be done badly, sure, but they can also all be done well, provided the author puts in the effort to do it right. How about (if you're going to participate in the discussion), rather than deciding if we believe there might be something to this theory based on whether we *like* it or not, we please for the purposes of *enjoying ourselves on these boards* give Isayama's writing ability (when it comes to time alteration narratives) a chance? Later on, if there are time loops and it turns out it was done badly, you can say you at least did give him a chance (which is done not just by reading it but by being reasonably open to it), and not just an empty "I told you so."
That said, I would argue that IF it does turn out this story messes with time, Isayama's on track to have done it *well.* He's already set up some very good indicators that this sort of narrative could be *possible* (i.e. the same stuff people are objecting to based on their feelings alone), so it won't be sprung randomly out of nowhere, later on. Seems so far that any potential time aspect is well-incorporated enough not to be retconned in later, or a thread like this one wouldn't even exist at all. Neither is it shaping up to be too much of a shallow/convenient device to properly tie into the core of what the story is about. So far, what I see is highly systematic (i.e. potential indicators appear in many aspects of the story-- dreams, foreground/background objects, people's casually spoken words, possibly even Norse symbology, etc., etc.) and potentially theme-consistent implementation of what may be signs of time loops/leaps occurring.
Those are all ingredients for good writing, people. So let's give Isayama-sensei a chance.
(I feel like I have to say something, as between here and another forum I visit, people are harder on this theory than any other. Meanwhile, people on this board are talking about a zombie movie-like "titan serum" or "titan virus" as if it's proven fact, when that could just as easily turn out to be false as leaps/loops could.)
@kannazuki
To be fair, pretty much a lot of stuff in this thread has no hard evidence. The most is implications from maybe a few scenes or choice of words they use, or how it is presented in general... So unfortunately any further discussion upon this issue are likely to sound like fanfic from all the ambiguous hints that we have. You're right about giving Isayama a chance, and by all means I do and trust him on his writing, but I guess I haven't made this clear about myself. Whenever you see me going "Oh I think it will get messy" or "This will be difficult to work out," please assume there's one more invisible sentence to follow saying "If Isayama did go for that route, I'll be amazed." :P In fact, I'm a strong supporter of "Let the author portray his world in peace," and I don't really like it when people say the mangaka should've done this or done that. It's his world after all, and I'm reading SnK exactly because I want to see Isayama's type of "despair" he talks about, not my own ideas. (Pretty much goes for any manga that I read.)
Thing is, we can't even call the strength of theories "validity" but rather "likelihood." Ideas are put forward, and we base the likelihood of each by fitting the pieces together, hacking them down and disprove them one by one. That's pretty much the most anyone could do for whatever theory they have right now.
Also, instead of saying "I told you so," my motivation for putting forward random points (and ultimately this thread) is that, hopefully somebody will find it interesting and hence develop the ideas (so I can have an interesting read and go mind-blown myself lol.) Again, going back to my previous point about everything being evidence-less, and exactly as Bandreus puts it, pretty much anything goes at this point, so naturally there are bound to be swarms of ideas.
Thing is, we can't even call the strength of theories "validity" but rather "likelihood." Ideas are put forward, and we base the likelihood of each by fitting the pieces together, hacking them down and disprove them one by one. That's pretty much the most anyone could do for whatever theory they have right now.
I think you're misunderstanding me here because, of course, I agree with you 100%. Please keep in mind I've never claimed there is any hard evidence for this theory. What I actually said was that I am totally fine with people saying they don't like/want to discuss the theory because they don't see enough support for it. The problem was that I don't get the impression people are actually saying that (not just here on this forum but on others too). I see people going into their fears about it not being something Isayama can write, as if "the writer can't write it well" = "the writer isn't writing it." Big logical fallacy there.
People are all over this forum talking about "titan serum" or "titan virus" zombie movie-like theories as if they're fact when there's no *hard* evidence for that either, yet no one is doing that with this theory. We always couch what we say in the conditional language of "if," "it's possible," "it could be," and so on. Seems to me everyone already understands we're talking opinions and inferences here, not facts and realities.
Also, instead of saying "I told you so," my motivation for putting forward random points (and ultimately this thread) is that, hopefully somebody will find it interesting and hence develop the ideas (so I can have an interesting read and go mind-blown myself lol.) Again, going back to my previous point about everything being evidence-less, and exactly as Bandreus puts it, pretty much anything goes at this point, so naturally there are bound to be swarms of ideas.
The "I told you so" part of my post is directed at folks who don't really know what they're talking about (in this case, the writer's ability to pull such a narrative off), yet essentially claim that if he dares to work with a time leap/loop trope, it will automatically suck. Again, I don't recall anyone in this thread taking this theory for granted as definitely true. This isn't a bandwagon we're riding because we think it's a "sure thing" and we can rub it in someone's face later (which would be an "I told you so" kind of set-up). We're just putting stuff together that seems to make sense for now and maybe resonates with other stuff we've discussed (or that's "mind blowing" like you said, lol), and we'll update it as better information comes in, or discard it when the theory is proven false for once and for all.
My brother makes a very good point that this can also be to us, since we live roughly around the year 2000. And that the entire message of the manga is to show that if humans keep fighting amongst each other, they will wipe themselves out. Even if there's a bigger threat.
), while in the former it's in order to stop the loop from repeating itself entirely.
