Match Tokugawa vs. Oni

[-Ken-]

It's mention that he was at the top and that he decided to step down. That doesn't mean he cannot use it at will at all.

http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/397870/9.jpg

 

[ybr99]

Is kishin oni stronger than tanageshima because if he is than that means he can't use it at will, or he would have won at least once.

 

[felixng2011]

You can use black hole to win one set. Then the question is can he beat oni without it.
I think he can. He can beat byoudin when he's playing at H1 level without it. The match would be close seeing as they practice with eachother alot.

Kijin Oni or POP Oni should be able to demolish Tokugawa without Black Hole much like Kijin Byodoin did to Tokugawa.

Also spamming Black Hole for 1 set would definitely tire out Tokugawa or at least weaken him in some way making him even weaker.

 

[ybr99]

It doesn't have to be the first set I'm just saying he has one set which he can win. He would probably use it to gain the momentum if he's losing or just use it at the end to win.

 

[Phantron]

At least prior to playing Kintaro, Oni cannot use Kishin at will because Byodoin was surprised the Oni that beat him two years came back, so that implies nobody else has saw him like that either. Tokugawa said he never saw Oni went all out and there's no reason for Oni to be holding back on purpose since his goal is to make Tokugawa the best player on the team. He literally forgot that he was once that good.

Now after playing Kintaro then Oni seems to be able to use Kishin/TnK at will. I mean I know they had Fuji said that Oni in fact does not have TnK all along, but it'd actually be less impressive if Oni had TnK all along as opposed to just learning TnK in approximately 30 seconds after seeing someone else doing it.

 

[Kaoz]

I'm pretty sure the one who says he hadn't seen Kijin before is Irie. It's a bit ambiguous from the text bubble arrow I'll admit, but yeah. That said, Oni might've just thought Kijin would've been too much for Tokugawa to handle at that stage of his training. It's not implied anywhere that he was actually unable to do it and he used it before the Kintarou match to beat up Kaji anyway.

Also, if Oni was equal to Tanegashima without using Kijin, that would make Tanegashima incredibly weak. Before Kijin, Kintarou went even with Oni and let's be real, Kintarou is nowhere near Tanegashima's level. I'm pretty sure that statement of them never having beaten each other before is supposed to be taken more like a meta statement - Tanegashima is equal to the Oni we've seen even though they may not actually have played each other (or maybe they did once without anyone watching, who knows, it's not important in any case).

 

[ybr99]

Oni's method of training is harsh he broke momo's wrists to teach him so i think he would use everything at his disposal to teach tokugawa

 

[Kaoz]

Oni doesn't want Momoshiro to become No. 1 though. In any case, that was just an example. The main point was that Oni not being able to use Kijin willingly makes no sense.

 

[Phantron]

Byodoin says the Oni that beat him 2 years ago has returned when he used Kishin, so unless the point is that Oni was secretly beating up scrubs using Kishin while Byodoin wasn't watching, we can assume that he's never used it in the two years since. There are several references to how Oni forgot his power (he said it himself, Fuji says so too). Tokugawa presumably has not seen Kishin, or he'd be smoking something potent talking about how he's going to be the #1 player in Japan if he saw Kishin and thought that just he could beat that without Black Hole. Even if it was Irie who said he's never seen Oni go all out, why would Tokugawa seen more than Irie given Irie's known Oni for a longer time? Oni without Kishin is still roughly Asura no Shindou level, so the fact that Tanegashima roughly ties him without Kishin doesn't mean Tanegashima is bad (if Tanegashima can tie him with Kishin then he should've become #1 after Oni got bored and gave up his place).

 

[Kaoz]

It's more than likely that Oni used Kijin to defeat Kaji, so yes, he did use it when Byoudouin wasn't watching. And I don't see how Oni would've used AnS against Tanegashima either considering that (from what it seems to represent) he gave up on the most important requirement. That said, I don't think we agree on how big of a boost AnS provides either though, so our perception on the matter is going to be different just based on that.

 

[Phantron]

I said Oni is equivalent of AnS. He's probably not quite as good as Tokugawa at AnS without an aura. If we assume the first set is supposed to be played at the level of H1 Byodoin since Byodoin is pretty much trying to recreate the same game 2 years ago, we get that Byodoin is a bit weaker than Tokugawa's AnS in his normal state (he almost certainly would've lost the match point without pirate aura). Likewise, this means Oni is slightly weaker than Byodoin without aura because 2 years ago he would've lost on the tiebreaker without Kishin. But there's a huge gap between AnS/near AnS and everything else. Only one of the coaches on the team even suspected that Byodoin might be holding back during the tiebreaker, and Duke/Tanegashima/everyone else is pretty much like 'how did Tokugawa got so good to play Byodoin head on?' That means they've never seen pirate aura either because otherwise they should be more like 'the boss hasn't played seriously yet' instead. We can surmise that Oni has kept Kishin sealed (or forgotten) while Byodoin has been hiding his true strength for a while, and he doesn't need to use pirate aura on the international stage because Byodoin got hurt before playing Duke and presumably all the teams before that aren't strong enough to need pirate aura.

As for Tanegashima, I got the feeling he probably played Oni to 6-6 and Oni decided it wasn't worth the effort to go through an Atobe style tiebreaker or accidentally killing someone with a giant glowing shot or more powerful power to win. That is, in the 2 games we seen between guys who are at/near AnS level it takes at least a giant glowing shot to decide the tiebreaker and that's probably why they call these games 'fight to the death' and I don't see why Oni would use that kind of technique on Tanegashima, or for that matter why would Tanegashima want to put his life on the line even if he does have the potential to beat Oni, so they just called it a draw instead. I don't see anything unusual for a near AnS Oni to smoke Kaji easily. Oni has like at least 2 tiers of power above "more powerful than Black Jackknife" and no reason to believe he needed to use Kishin.

 

[Kaoz]

The thing with Kaji isn't shown in the original release, but the scene was changed in the volume. Here's a picture of the changed scene. As you can see, there's blood on the ball and on Kaji's forehead where it runs down his face over his right eye. That's the exact same thing that happened with Byoudouin two years ago, so I think this is meant to be a parallel. It's also obviously meant to be foreshadowing for Oni's G10 match and the big move he revealed there was Kijin.

I agree that Byoudouin hasn't used the Pirate aura before, but I don't think this leads us to a conclusion about Oni. If we look at stats, Tokugawa has 22.5 and Irie has 22. The two of them together with Oni are a group, so I find it highly unlikely that Oni isn't around the same level, i.e. nowhere near Tanegashima's 28. Assuming a ~22 total for Oni also makes complete sense when looking at the match with Kintarou - when Kintarou was using special moves and Oni wasn't, Kintarou was winning. When both of them played with 10 balls, they were even. You could say Oni was still holding back besides not using Kijin after he started using 10BS, but that's not actually supported by anything we've seen.

 

[ybr99]

What's he saying. Need a translation.
From what it looks like you may be right.

 

[Kaoz]

I don't have the exact wording on me, but he's basically just saying that Oni pulled out something stronger than Black Jack Knife.

 

[ybr99]

There is a lot of blood by byoudin while very little on kaji. Maybe it's not kijin and just another level of jack knife or a move we haven't seen. Kaji does not seem surprised by whatever happened. If it was kijin i think he would be surprised just like everyone else was by it, but then again i may be wrong.

 

[Kaoz]

That isn't actually an inconsistency, Kijin's power just seems to be at least partially related to the power of the shot that's returned. Compare Byoudouin's return of Tokugawa's Glowing Destruction to the entire second set of that match. The former busted a wall whereas the latter knocked Tokugawa around a bit, but didn't even send him flying or anything. The blood on Byoudouin's head comes from a return of a high power technique, the blood on Kaji's most likely from a return of a regular shot.

And I would say it's implied that Kaji hadn't seen that move before. Not to mention that neither of those suggestions accounts for the foreshadowing point.

 

[Phantron]

Kaji says Oni used something more powerful than Black Jackknife. Problem is that he has at least 2 tiers of power above it. I mean, he can use Black Jackknife while using the 2-string racket. There's also the 5-ball level Black Jackknife that he used against Kintaro (he was practicing with 5 balls with Tokugawa), and then he can go 10-balls, and then he can go near AnS level (his H1 stats without Kishin when playing Byodoin), and then there's Kishin. So the fact that he used something more powerful than Black Jackknife could mean almost anything. Most likely he just went to his H1 levels, e.g. the game against Byodoin before the tiebreaker. Byodoin undoubtedly was limiting himself to around that level too in the game against Tokugawa initially, and people didn't think that mean he was overrated as the #1, so both Oni and Byodoin can still easily clobber an opponent without using their special auras. That'd just put them at near AnS level which is still going to easily destroy anybody besides Tokugawa and possibly Tanegashima (both of them seem like they'd lose to Tokugawa AnS eventually if neither use their special auras, and I don't see how Tanegashima would just merely be #2 if he can actually play a near AnS guy to a perfect draw).

 

[Kaoz]

You're right, in a vacuum that line could mean almost anything. But given context, it can't. For starters, we already knew about 5 Ball Strike and 10 Ball Strike - we didn't know it'd be possible to actually split a single ball, but we knew Oni could hit this many back in chapter 20. Hence this just doesn't make sense to foreshadow. Then there's the distinction between a 2-string BJK and a full-string one, but do you seriously think someone on the 1st String has never seen the latter when Oni even used it against a random MSer, 3rd court's reserve player and even random low court players know about it? I can't disprove this, but it strikes me as highly unlikely.

Finally, there's AnS - the problem with AnS is that it wasn't actually introduced until Tokugawa used it, hence it again doesn't make sense to foreshadow this for Oni's match. Kijin is the only realistic choice left.

Next, chances are that Byoudouin actually wouldn't have lost to AnS!Tokugawa even without Pirate. As we've established, Oni didn't know about Byoudouin unlocking the aura before, but he still urges Tokugawa to finish the set immediately once Tokugawa gets his first set point. After thinking more about it, I also reject the notion that Byoudouin literally played at H1 level. In my eyes he was holding back in the sense that he didn't use any special moves besides that one Destruction at the beginning, but he was still rallying at his regular H3 level - Oni was most likely concerned that Byoudouin would start pulling out World Techniques at that point.

Byoudouin setting up the stage to match what happened in his match with Oni is valid, but I don't think this necessarily includes him also playing at that same level, just that he and Tokugawa would trade games the same way and he'd return a Destruction the same way. After all, if Byoudouin just played at H1 level and Tokugawa was above that, the setup wouldn't work at all.

Lastly, how does Tanegashima being No. 2 to just Byoudouin not make sense? Even under your assumptions, Byoudouin was likely stronger than Oni by the end of H1 (and he definitely is now during H3), so if Tanegashima can draw against Oni he loses to Byoudouin.

 

[Phantron]

Byodoin has been hiding his true powers for a while too unless Oni just somehow missed any game Byodoin used pirate aura, so if Tanegashima can draw Oni that'd mean he can roughly draw Byodoin too and you'd think he'll go for #1 at some point. However, based on the reaction to Tokugawa versus Byodoin it seems like Tanegashima never seriously contemplated challenging #1 since he's got a standard 'what did Tokugawa do to become so strong to be on par with Byodoin' deal, implying that he also doesn't know Byodoin's true power. Since nobody played Byodoin dared to play him again, that means he almost certainly never played Byodoin at any point (or if he did, he would've been totally clobbered since that's what they say Byodoin does to anyone), so I take that to mean that even without pirate aura Tanegashima doesn't think he can beat Byodoin, and Byodoin without pirate aura is roughly the same as Oni without Kishin.

While the names of the techniques/aura/whatever isn't available at the time he played Kaji I don't see why Oni couldn't have played at the level he was at H1, prior to Kishin. I don't think Oni and Byodoin's stats being ??? was something Konomi just thought off all the sudden, and that was before either of them improved via the H1 game. Oni playing at even the lowest of the '??? stats' level should easily be able to beat Kaji. Otherwise there isn't even a point for his stat to be ??? if it turns out that he needed Kishin (something he obtained after he improved from his original ??? stats). Or, put it another way, the lowest of either Byodoin or Oni's stats at ??? better not be lower than the highest available stat guy on Japan (Tanegashima), otherwise we really do have a case of DBZ Scouter malfunctioning. I won't say Oni'Byodoin's ??? is like 7/7/7/7/7 but it should at least be as high as Tanegashima, and that's without any auras too.

 

[felixng2011]

Byodoin has been hiding his true powers for a while too unless Oni just somehow missed any game Byodoin used pirate aura, so if Tanegashima can draw Oni that'd mean he can roughly draw Byodoin too and you'd think he'll go for #1 at some point. However, based on the reaction to Tokugawa versus Byodoin it seems like Tanegashima never seriously contemplated challenging #1 since he's got a standard 'what did Tokugawa do to become so strong to be on par with Byodoin' deal, implying that he also doesn't know Byodoin's true power. Since nobody played Byodoin dared to play him again, that means he almost certainly never played Byodoin at any point (or if he did, he would've been totally clobbered since that's what they say Byodoin does to anyone), so I take that to mean that even without pirate aura Tanegashima doesn't think he can beat Byodoin, and Byodoin without pirate aura is roughly the same as Oni without Kishin.

While the names of the techniques/aura/whatever isn't available at the time he played Kaji I don't see why Oni couldn't have played at the level he was at H1, prior to Kishin. I don't think Oni and Byodoin's stats being ??? was something Konomi just thought off all the sudden, and that was before either of them improved via the H1 game. Oni playing at even the lowest of the '??? stats' level should easily be able to beat Kaji. Otherwise there isn't even a point for his stat to be ??? if it turns out that he needed Kishin (something he obtained after he improved from his original ??? stats). Or, put it another way, the lowest of either Byodoin or Oni's stats at ??? better not be lower than the highest available stat guy on Japan (Tanegashima), otherwise we really do have a case of DBZ Scouter malfunctioning. I won't say Oni'Byodoin's ??? is like 7/7/7/7/7 but it should at least be as high as Tanegashima, and that's without any auras too.

Byo is probably something like 7 tech, 7 sta, 7 mental, 3.5 spd, 4-4.5 power in base. He may have a 8 in tech.