I am asking about your opinions, so I guess if people are differs in opinion. Let's not go after each others' throats now. And only used semi to fully developed characters, by that I meant don't give me something like Dragon because we don't know jack about him. Oh and it doesn't need to be...
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I am going through my old threads. And this one is from over 10 years ago.
1) top 5 speed (any technique or DF are fair game)
2) top 5 "brute" strength (don't consider DF power, but DF users are fair game)
3) top 5 survivors- by this I meant ranking depend on how a person last without attack back. Endurance, Speed, Reflex, Devil Fruit abilities, whatever.
a) For people in the top tier: PK, Yonko, Fleet Admirals, Admirals, Garp, etc
b) For people who you don't consider to be top tier.
1. Assuming pure speed (i.e mobility), while ignoring blitz-speed and attack-speed
- Kizaru
- Enel
- Sanji
- Hakuba
- King
The top 2 are fixed, hard to decide between 3-5.
Edit: Hon mentions - Luffy, Kuma. Added Hakuba. Top 3 "blitz speed" - Kaido, Zoro, Luffy
2.
don't consider DF power, but DF users are fair game
Speed is one of the weirdest stats in this series to me an perhaps the one that is framed with the least amount of consistency. Or otherwise as what the plot requires. The SBS where oda made the point that brook would win a 50 meter race against the other strawhats... How does that make sense? Luffy has gear 2 and 4, sanji's fighting style revolves around his legs, zoro usually fights enemy crew monsters... And this was SBS 85, at this point luffy had already revealed his gear 4. Even if you make the point that this doesn't include gears, base luffy at that point is still quite fast. The implication appears to be that you can be significantly slower than someone but still hold your own in close quarter combat? how does that work? Why can't just brook simply stab oven-daifuku types in the throat without them ever noticing if he is faster than sanji?
1. Assuming pure speed (i.e mobility), while ignoring blitz-speed and attack-speed
- Kizaru
- Enel
- Sanji
- King
- Luffy
The top 2 are fixed, hard to decide between 3-5
2.
I presume this means ignoring DF power, i.e in base if we consider DF users.
- Zou
- Whitebeard
- Kaido
- Big Mom
- Jozu
I'd put Kuma up there with Kizaru & Enel as far as speed. If I recall can't he travel at the speed of light? Honestly Kuma seemed to have more control on this speed to since it appeared he can teleport to exactly where he wants, which we haven't seen from Kizaru yet at least.
Nah, kuma definitely can't travel at the speed of light. He can torpedo himself or others in whichever direction but the movement is not instantaneous. When the strawhats were separated luffy travelled from 3 days. And the red line still exists so its fair to say kuma didn't torpedo at it at lightspeed.
Luffy/Zoro/Kaido (and possible others) would be honoroble mentions on speed. They all have techniques that allow them to blitz people/dodge etc.
Brute Strength
For this I'd place at top creatures like Zunesha, Sea Kings, Whales, etc but since they are not humans I'll leave them off top 5.
Burgess - I know this is controversial but his new DF is literally raw strength. He did what Jozu did casually with his powers so I'm assuming at full power we will end up seeing the most ridiculous feats of strength in OP.
Whitebeard/G5 Luffy
Whitebeard/G5 Luffy
Kaido/Big Mom
Kaido/Big Mom
I think honorable mentions here are Jozu, Oars & Oars Jr, San Juan Wolf, maybe some giants
Survivors
I'm taking this to be defense/durability e.g. person can use DF powers, haki, etc to endure attacks without attacking back. I won't count people who survive by just dodging/not getting hit. For this reason I won't count Barto since his ability guarantees the ultimate defense. Even prime Oden couldn't break the barrier.
Whitebeard (this man fought with part of his brain missing and a giant hole in his abdomen)
Kaido
Luffy
Blackbeard
King/Jozu (I think relative tie for me here)
Honorable mentions here for Akainu, Kuma OG, Zoro, Pekoms (turtle power), Daz Bones, etc. Lots of characters we've seen that can really take a beating or have high defense they just don't stack up against the top 5.
Nah, kuma definitely can't travel at the speed of light. He can torpedo himself or others in whichever direction but the movement is not instantaneous. When the strawhats were separated luffy travelled from 3 days. And the red line still exists so its fair to say kuma didn't torpedo at it at lightspeed.
When Kuma was describing his Pad Ho technique he specifically stated that the cannons are air deflected at light speed.
From this I took it that he can use the Paw Paw fruit to move things at speed of light. I definitely agree the long distance travel is not at light speed since it takes days but maybe his local "teleport" movement is much closer to light speed than we think. Of course this could all just be hyperbole on Kuma's part but don't want to discount it yet.
To me it sounds mostly hyperbolic. I am not sure of how short range teleportation would even work here. It doesn't seem consistent with the rest of kuma's skillset. To me it makes more sense that kuma basically reflects himself around when using the fruit which looks like teleportation but isn't necessarily that.
Survivors
I'm taking this to be defense/durability e.g. person can use DF powers, haki, etc to endure attacks without attacking back. I won't count people who survive by just dodging/not getting hit. For this reason I won't count Barto since his ability guarantees the ultimate defense. Even prime Oden couldn't break the barrier.
I guess that is fine. You can answer it however you want. But when I ask that question, I have Law, Katakuri, etc in mind. Of course, they all have limit after a while. Even with people like Bartolomeo. You can defeat Barto. There are power that bypass his defense. Robin/Law for example. Aokiji, Akainu, Monet, Oven who can change the temperature. I don't think his barrier is completely complete insulated. Or even people like Whitebeard, Oars, can pick up his barrier (or hammer him into the ground and then pick up the entire thing that he is in) and then proceed to throw it into the ocean.
TBH my assumption is that barto's barrier is completely insulated and can't be damaged or affected by anything. Temperature is a potentially interesting topic in this regard but we have no information to go on though. My impression was that a barrier placed by barto couldn't be moved, otherwise the stuff we have seen would have torpedoed him elsewhere. We have seen it take attacks from other or the king's punch and the thing was not even remotely affected. To me it's not a stretch that the barrier could laugh at yonko level attacks.
We have seen it take attacks from other or the king's punch and the thing was not even remotely affected. To me it's not a stretch that the barrier could laugh at yonko level attacks.
To me it sounds mostly hyperbolic. I am not sure of how short range teleportation would even work here. It doesn't seem consistent with the rest of kuma's skillset. To me it makes more sense that kuma basically reflects himself around when using the fruit which looks like teleportation but isn't necessarily that.
Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply that he is literally teleporting. I meant literally what you said, he repels himself with his paw powers to move quickly. The open question for me is at what speed this movement is happening. I had assumed it is at light speed, which is why people think he teleports but like you said he could have been hyperbolic with that statement. At the moment we don't know exactly how fast this movement is since we haven't seen it go up against other speed users.
I guess that is fine. You can answer it however you want. But when I ask that question, I have Law, Katakuri, etc in mind. Of course, they all have limit after a while. Even with people like Bartolomeo. You can defeat Barto. There are power that bypass his defense. Robin/Law for example. Aokiji, Akainu, Monet, Oven who can change the temperature. I don't think his barrier is completely complete insulated. Or even people like Whitebeard, Oars, can pick up his barrier (or hammer him into the ground and then pick up the entire thing that he is in) and then proceed to throw it into the ocean.
Those are pretty interesting points. You're correct that there are ways to damage Barto despite the barrier i.e. Robin/Law. Not so sure about the other options like Kkck pointed out the barrier so far seems immovable and impenetrable even by Yonko level fighters. Either way your point does still stand about abilities that don't effect the barrier but Barto himself.
With your new info in mind I probably would not place Barto as 1 on my list but he may make it at number 5 above King/Jozu. I think his barrier defense so far is more absolute than Lunarian defense mode/turning into diamond.
It's hard to tell who's the fastest character without a Devil Fruit.
For example, Sanji is super fast for a commander-level character, but I think the difference from a Yonko is big enough that they surpass his speed. So the last one is probably just the strongest character overall.
Akainu was still fighting after receiving an earthquake on his face and ribs. He also avoided Marco and Vista attacks in a Katakuri-like fashion.
Oden's body seems to have super-Human durability, which Momonosuke inherited too.
Jozu in his diamond form would be #1. However, it seems his Devil Fruit requires him to be focused, so he's not really on the list. Law or Katakuri beat him on that aspect.
I'd put Kuma up there with Kizaru & Enel as far as speed. If I recall can't he travel at the speed of light? Honestly Kuma seemed to have more control on this speed to since it appeared he can teleport to exactly where he wants, which we haven't seen from Kizaru yet at least.
I thought of him, but since the SHs were travelling what seemed like for days after being sent flying, I presume it's at like speed of sound of something.
Luffy/Zoro/Kaido (and possible others) would be honoroble mentions on speed. They all have techniques that allow them to blitz people/dodge etc.
Brute Strength
For this I'd place at top creatures like Zunesha, Sea Kings, Whales, etc but since they are not humans I'll leave them off top 5.
Burgess - I know this is controversial but his new DF is literally raw strength. He did what Jozu did casually with his powers so I'm assuming at full power we will end up seeing the most ridiculous feats of strength in OP.
Whitebeard/G5 Luffy
Whitebeard/G5 Luffy
Kaido/Big Mom
Kaido/Big Mom
I think honorable mentions here are Jozu, Oars & Oars Jr, San Juan Wolf, maybe some giants
Survivors
I'm taking this to be defense/durability e.g. person can use DF powers, haki, etc to endure attacks without attacking back. I won't count people who survive by just dodging/not getting hit. For this reason I won't count Barto since his ability guarantees the ultimate defense. Even prime Oden couldn't break the barrier.
Whitebeard (this man fought with part of his brain missing and a giant hole in his abdomen)
Kaido
Luffy
Blackbeard
King/Jozu (I think relative tie for me here)
Honorable mentions here for Akainu, Kuma OG, Zoro, Pekoms (turtle power), Daz Bones, etc. Lots of characters we've seen that can really take a beating or have high defense they just don't stack up against the top 5.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
When Kuma was describing his Pad Ho technique he specifically stated that the cannons are air deflected at light speed.
From this I took it that he can use the Paw Paw fruit to move things at speed of light. I definitely agree the long distance travel is not at light speed since it takes days but maybe his local "teleport" movement is much closer to light speed than we think. Of course this could all just be hyperbole on Kuma's part but don't want to discount it yet.
Damn, I missed Hakuba in speed, and King/Jozu in durability.
Yeah, they definitely belong there too.
Hakuba creates tornados with his speed, covered miles long and climbed up a mountain within like a second. He is up there with Sanji and King at least.
I agree on "blitz speed". If we are talking about "blitz speed", then top 3 would be: Kaido (thunder bagua variants), Zoro (shishisonson/asura), Luffy (G4)
King is canonically harder to damage than Kaido. Kaido can be hurt with advanced armament, while King no sells advanced armament.
Diamond probably is at least as hard as King, should be harder based on hype.
Whitebeard shouldn't be that high, because many of the attacks that damaged WB would be no sold by King, Jozu and Kaido.
As for "brute strength", @weixiaobao wanted it without DF based on my understanding. So Burgess and G5 Luffy don't make it. The sea kings and the stuff don't have physical strength compared to top tiers. But Zou/Zunisha and Oars Jr should be up there I guess.
It's hard to tell who's the fastest character without a Devil Fruit.
For example, Sanji is super fast for a commander-level character, but I think the difference from a Yonko is big enough that they surpass his speed. So the last one is probably just the strongest character overall.
I don't think top tiers are especially speedy bois.
Though their CQC is usually top tier, and are top tier in attack power.
I think King "disappearing" from the eyes of someone as perceptive as Zoro, who could comfortably track the movements of Kaido, is pretty impressive.
Though Sanji "disappearing" from the eyes of Queen isn't as impressive since Queen is a bum when it comes to reaction/CQC, apparently Oda said in an SBS that Sanji can become invisible with his speed. I presume he means "disappear" from the eyes of not just Queen but pretty much everyone out there.
Both these feats are more impressive than anything Kuma did IMO.
Law teleports, not sure if we can count that lol.
I thought of him, but since the SHs were travelling what seemed like for days after being sent flying, I presume it's at like speed of sound of something.
Even at speed of sound in a fight that's probably faster than most OP fighters. Speed of sound is almost as fast as Enel. I guess what we need is to see Kuma's speed post skip vs someone fast. Maybe we'll get that with this arc since we have both Kuma and Seraphim involved.
Damn, I missed Hakuba in speed, and King/Jozu in durability.
Yeah, they definitely belong there too.
Hakuba creates tornados with his speed, covered miles long and climbed up a mountain within like a second. He is up there with Sanji and King at least.
I agree on "blitz speed". If we are talking about "blitz speed", then top 3 would be: Kaido (thunder bagua variants), Zoro (shishisonson/asura), Luffy (G4)
King is canonically harder to damage than Kaido. Kaido can be hurt with advanced armament, while King no sells advanced armament.
Diamond probably is at least as hard as King, should be harder based on hype.
Whitebeard shouldn't be that high, because many of the attacks that damaged WB would be no sold by King, Jozu and Kaido.
As for "brute strength", @weixiaobao wanted it without DF based on my understanding. So Burgess and G5 Luffy don't make it. The sea kings and the stuff don't have physical strength compared to top tiers. But Zou/Zunisha and Oars Jr should be up there I guess.
Hakuba is definitely a speed monster. Of all fighters we've seen he specifically is a speed fighter too which is pretty cool since we haven't gotten those in OP.
On the Survivors I think we are just interpreting the ask differently. I took it as people who will be able to keep on fighting after taking a bunch of attacks. I think WB is more likely to get damaged by attacks than people with high defense like King/Jozu but at the same time I think WB will still be able to fight. Look what happened to King and Jozu in their respective fights when the opponent managed to get past those defenses (albeit Jozu was a distraction one), they lost. WB lost half a face and kept on going.
Ah yeah we did the brute strength slightly differently too. I was counting things like muscle balloon Luffy used. Without active use of DF power for strength I'd update my list to be:
WB
Kaido/Big Mom
Kaido/Big Mom
Jozu
San Juan Wolf (based on size and hype)
As for the Sea Kings I didn't mean all of them just the ones that are massive, let's call them S Class Sea Kings e.g. the ones that came for Noah. Those guys were large enough to probably destroy small islands.
Even at speed of sound in a fight that's probably faster than most OP fighters. Speed of sound is almost as fast as Enel. I guess what we need is to see Kuma's speed post skip vs someone fast. Maybe we'll get that with this arc since we have both Kuma and Seraphim involved.
But I don't think speed of sound would "disappear" from Zoro's eyes.
I wouldn't put that above that King did, or what Sanji did (by hype he can "disappear" from Zoro as well)
Hakuba covering miles in distance in a second is of course better than speed of sound too.
On the Survivors I think we are just interpreting the ask differently. I took it as people who will be able to keep on fighting after taking a bunch of attacks. I think WB is more likely to get damaged by attacks than people with high defense like King/Jozu but at the same time I think WB will still be able to fight. Look what happened to King and Jozu in their respective fights when the opponent managed to get past those defenses (albeit Jozu was a distraction one), they lost. WB lost half a face and kept on going.
I see, you mean characters who can keep going after getting damaged. In that case:
1 Whitebeard
2. Kaido
3. Zoro
4. Luffy
5. Big Mom
Logically though, I wonder how that works. I mean, if an attack cut of the wing of defence mode King, then it should dismember basically anyone except maybe Jozu I presume.
I suppose it's just anime logic...
Without active use of DF power for strength I'd update my list to be:
WB
Kaido/Big Mom
Kaido/Big Mom
Jozu
San Juan Wolf (based on size and hype)
As for the Sea Kings I didn't mean all of them just the ones that are massive, let's call them S Class Sea Kings e.g. the ones that came for Noah. Those guys were large enough to probably destroy small islands.
