Discussion Traumerei vs Revolution

kkck

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I could see the boss entity as a being that like luslec has the capacity to engage family heads but ultimately victory should be conceptually impossible.
 

Lonatian

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This translation says imagination, and I am basing it always. It is a wind god, not a magician or trickster, it creates negative or positive pressures to deal with things, not illusions. "Concept of the wind blowing outside the tower" is what I am using. I don't know the exact korean word but it looks like a bad translation as an illusion, there is no illusion here. Traumerei once says illusion to derogate/mock.
I am not complaining about swordsmen using a sword, if he does not change tactics/strategy for a while and insisting on using it, it is foolish. Analogy of Eduan or Hon vs. Zahard is unrelated here. Traumerei only very lately started to use his
You like to call it imagination, but Traumerei calls it ridiculous illusion. And 3D disconnect/rupture completely destroys "imagination" or whatever you want to describe.

Traumerei doesn't just spam shinheuhs, he combines them. Shinheuh in this case is just a "sword" in Traumerei's hands. Above all, Traumerei thinks before using it, it is actually effective and not useless as you say. It's just that Gustang has handled them.
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Even though Traumerei is a master of shinsu control, he is basically Anima. And you're here complaining about that. It's like forcing swordsmen not to use swords. Shouldn't a swordsman use "sword" in every technique?
 

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I could see the boss entity as a being that like luslec has the capacity to engage family heads but ultimately victory should be conceptually impossible.
Well don't think both Mirchea and Boss have that capacity. UM straight up told Mirchea runs away from 10 GFLs and when we had UM vs Rei and Gussy, All of them never considered Mirchea could take that advantage. Mirchea never even interfered and looked tensed asf throughout the fight. Likewise, boss even admitted he along with others would have been devoured had they left a second later which wasn't even an attack from Rei, himself.
 

Lonatian

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Revs and Luslec wouldn't be able to get through the Hollan Labyrinth or Megalodon, let alone handle 7 beasts and three sea dragons.
How many towerborns can confidently say they can kill Traumerei's shinheuhs? While his shinheuhs are basically endless and can not die.
 

kkck

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Well don't think both Mirchea and Boss have that capacity. UM straight up told Mirchea runs away from 10 GFLs and when we had UM vs Rei and Gussy, All of them never considered Mirchea could take that advantage. Mirchea never even interfered and looked tensed asf throughout the fight. Likewise, boss even admitted he along with others would have been devoured had they left a second later which wasn't even an attack from Rei, himself.
Annnnddd? We still saw that luslec did remarkably well against urek. Urek didn't go all out but the same can be said for Luslec. As I said, victory is impossible but Luslec has the capacity to clash with these folk.
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Revs and Luslec wouldn't be able to get through the Hollan Labyrinth or Megalodon, let alone handle 7 beasts and three sea dragons.
How many towerborns can confidently say they can kill Traumerei's shinheuhs? While his shinheuhs are basically endless and can not die.
No one can kill traumerei's shineuh as long as he lives. Even gustang didn't manage that. That's not a metric of someone's capacity to clash with a family head to any level.
 

Anne isn't a TT

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Annnnddd? We still saw that luslec did remarkably well against urek. Urek didn't go all out but the same can be said for Luslec. As I said, victory is impossible but Luslec has the capacity to clash with these folk.
I don't deny that. Mirchea performed well against UM. I can even say UM can never kill Mirchea unless he can think of a way to instantly destroy the spells esp the bright charge for good. But against 10 GFLs, No. They are a bad match up for him from what he has shown till now. Rei won't even need to stand up (like in the nest against yas) to destroy Mirchea. Same for Gussy who is prolly one of the current best user of spell if not the best user active.
 

kkck

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I don't deny that. Mirchea performed well against UM. I can even say UM can never kill Mirchea unless he can think of a way to instantly destroy the spells esp the bright charge for good. But against 10 GFLs, No. They are a bad match up for him from what he has shown till now. Rei won't even need to stand up (like in the nest against yas) to destroy Mirchea. Same for Gussy who is prolly one of the current best user of spell if not the best user active.
Well, urek can simply punch spells out of existence. I am not sure of why family heads would be worse matchups against luslec than urek was.
 

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Well, urek can simply punch spells out of existence. I am not sure of why family heads would be worse matchups against luslec than urek was.
And yet UM was prisoned 3 times in a row by the same spell. Rei's aura just negated the spell in a sec in 642 without even him trying.
 

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I don't deny that. Mirchea performed well against UM. I can even say UM can never kill Mirchea unless he can think of a way to instantly destroy the spells esp the bright charge for good. But against 10 GFLs, No. They are a bad match up for him from what he has shown till now. Rei won't even need to stand up (like in the nest against yas) to destroy Mirchea. Same for Gussy who is prolly one of the current best user of spell if not the best user active.
Urek doesn't want to kill luslec thats the thing. He could just punch luslec's spells and speed blitz him immediately after(he already did it once). Or he could just spam shinsoo beams at Luslec from long range. There are just so many ways in which Urek could go at Luslec. If Urek has the capability to beat all the family heads in a fight, then Luslec should be a very easy kill by default.
 

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I could see the boss entity as a being that like luslec has the capacity to engage family heads but ultimately victory should be conceptually impossible.
Hopefully we will see the "Boss" doing something next time. I can't put him in a power rank or something just because he is arrogant until Urek comes. Same goes for Luslec, since he did not really beat someone before, people talk like he can't beat anything. We need some canon fights of these two.

Separate from this, I sort of ignore Urek shittalking of Luslec for him running away, all the panels we see Luslec even in his not-yet-grace flashback, he was not running away, but towards. I sort of understand why many never acknowledge anything out of F.U.G. as they did not really kill or finish a thing before, and even Baam (not considering Vaam) was their best shown asset. Indeed, it is a crucial question in me that, if we have this impossible to be closed gap between irregulars and towerborns, it took for elders very damn long to take Baam seriously, like he went straight up to beat a ranker, and he was a slayer candidate much before. If I were in their place, I would definitely consider Baam as the strongest, biggest chance, turn of events. It seems like they already had another way to deal with FH. But then we were suddenly suggested that "it was all part of the plan". Honestly, Hwa Ryun definitely knew of Baam-Vaam before V appeared, but Luslec was just a spectator there to see a FH death.

Well, urek can simply punch spells out of existence. I am not sure of why family heads would be worse matchups against luslec than urek was.
I am not sure about Traumerei owing to the stated Dark Charge shattering even without looking at that place, but Gustang may not really be the worse match up at all :)

You like to call it imagination, but Traumerei calls it ridiculous illusion. And 3D disconnect/rupture completely destroys "imagination" or whatever you want to describe.

Traumerei doesn't just spam shinheuhs, he combines them. Shinheuh in this case is just a "sword" in Traumerei's hands. Above all, Traumerei thinks before using it, it is actually effective and not useless as you say. It's just that Gustang has handled them.
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Even though Traumerei is a master of shinsu control, he is basically Anima. And you're here complaining about that. It's like forcing swordsmen not to use swords. Shouldn't a swordsman use "sword" in every technique?
I don't "call it" per se, it is right there as that.
There are several manga characters like Bleach, Ichigo who just Getsuga Tensho his way, Urek Mazino here, or so many other single dimensional characters. Nevertheless, you also know Traumerei has actually worth trying techniques against Gustang (Disconnection, Wall of Malice, also Valhalla), yet he chose things ineffective so repetitively. If you ONLY have sword and it DOES NOT work against someone, you better get out then aimlessly trying :) There was only one instance of Holan project which is interesting but looked like some machina ex deus, and Gustang handling it was good still. Other than that, especially around a chapter where Gustang used unlimited blade works for the first time, Traumerei was ridiculous and kept enhancing combining badger and wolves to let them incinerated again.
 

Lonatian

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I don't "call it" per se, it is right there as that.
There are several manga characters like Bleach, Ichigo who just Getsuga Tensho his way, Urek Mazino here, or so many other single dimensional characters. Nevertheless, you also know Traumerei has actually worth trying techniques against Gustang (Disconnection, Wall of Malice, also Valhalla), yet he chose things ineffective so repetitively. If you ONLY have sword and it DOES NOT work against someone, you better get out then aimlessly trying :) There was only one instance of Holan project which is interesting but looked like some machina ex deus, and Gustang handling it was good still. Other than that, especially around a chapter where Gustang used unlimited blade works for the first time, Traumerei was ridiculous and kept enhancing combining badger and wolves to let them incinerated again.
So how do you explain how 3D Disconnect can destroy Hunos which you proved to me is an imagination?
I said it before (and said it many times) what problem do you have with the strongest Anima user in history using Anima? It's not useless, at least as far as I can see. Traumerei thinks before using those shinheuhs. Gustang cannot kill any of Traumerei's shinheuhs. Those shinheuhs are endless and cannot die.

I have a feeling you didn't watch the fight between Traumerei and Gustang.
Disconnect was used by him at least 3/4 of the fight.
Wall of Malice was only used when he was in true form.
Valhalla (also an Anima technique) was rarely used, Gustang only saw it a few times.

And you expected him to use it from the beginning? Gustang also didn't use the library from the beginning.
 

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Urek doesn't want to kill luslec thats the thing. He could just punch luslec's spells and speed blitz him immediately after(he already did it once). Or he could just spam shinsoo beams at Luslec from long range. There are just so many ways in which Urek could go at Luslec. If Urek has the capability to beat all the family heads in a fight, then Luslec should be a very easy kill by default.


Acc to Mirchea as long as dark charge is deactivated forcefully, he will always be trapped in the space. And UM has been seen helpless in that space not once, not twice but thrice in a row.
 

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Annnnddd? We still saw that luslec did remarkably well against urek. Urek didn't go all out but the same can be said for Luslec. As I said, victory is impossible but Luslec has the capacity to clash with these folk.
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No one can kill traumerei's shineuh as long as he lives. Even gustang didn't manage that. That's not a metric of someone's capacity to clash with a family head to any level.
The two were holding back, but they weren't holding back to the same degree. Luslec definitely doesn't have the power to match a FH. Urek reduced his Shinsoo Reinforcement and only used a named attack once. Luslec was using very powerful Spells and Dark Charge, a transformation that Jinsung hadn't seen in a long time. Even in his state, Urek was able to deal with most of Luslec's Spells with pure brute force. Traumerei wouldn't do any of this. All Creatures would kill them all.
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I already agreed with adding Luslec will not change the outcome. Furthermore, I don't see any point of killing family members as long as you don't have a way to kill a FH. It is like blowing cold air to a very big, boiling cauldron without doing anything to the flame beneath. If Revos did not have any way to kill a FH (harboring a hidden irregular or whatever), I could care less about them. I also don't discuss on strategy term considering your post. I just don't give too much emphasis on all creatures. Yama kept ripping them apart, yeah, he can't do anything as while he exhausting himself it is a flick of a wrist for Traumerei, but this is not raw power, it is Traumerei's attrition.
I don't know how you can't when All Creatures is his Shinwonryu. Yama kept ripping them apart? When did he do that? Traumerei was going to kill everyone at the Nest with it, everyone felt it. Gustang is the reason why he stopped his attack.
 
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Lonatian

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Revs clearly had no way of defeating the Traumerei. Their plan was a rigged game of chess. They were counting on Gustang and hoping one or both of them would die.
 

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Acc to Mirchea as long as dark charge is deactivated forcefully, he will always be trapped in the space. And UM has been seen helpless in that space not once, not twice but thrice in a row.
It won't work against SWR. It won't work against Traumerei who knows a lot more about spells than Urek.

Luslec would need to keep fighting golden animals until his stamima ends or just run away. At some point, they would lose without reaching Traumerei.
 

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UM has been seen helpless in that space not once, not twice but thrice in a row.
Didn't we see him literally shatter it the third time?

He couldn't be trapped in that space anymore, Luslsc had simply teleported with V already before he broke it.
 

kkck

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The two were holding back, but they weren't holding back to the same degree. Luslec definitely doesn't have the power to match a FH. Urek reduced his Shinsoo Reinforcement and only used a named attack once. Luslec was using very powerful Spells and Dark Charge, a transformation that Jinsung hadn't seen in a long time. Even in his state, Urek was able to deal with most of Luslec's Spells with pure brute force. Traumerei wouldn't do any of this. All Creatures would kill them all.
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I don't know how you can't when All Creatures is his Shinwonryu. Yama kept ripping them apart? When did he do that? Traumerei was going to kill everyone at the Nest with it, everyone felt it. Gustang is the reason why he stopped his attack.
I am not saying luslec is even with urek or even the family heads though. I've been pretty consistent in saying victory is impossible for luslec. My point is merely that his overall power level is probably in the same realm as urek/family heads. And there likely are some gaps between those as well.
 

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Didn't we see him literally shatter it the third time?

He couldn't be trapped in that space anymore, Luslsc had simply teleported with V already before he broke it.
That is the entire idea dude. Considering the expected power gap between Urek and Luslec, halting him to need to break through the spell was a merit, and was mandatory to be able to escape with V, otherwise Urek was catching up.

The two were holding back, but they weren't holding back to the same degree. Luslec definitely doesn't have the power to match a FH. Urek reduced his Shinsoo Reinforcement and only used a named attack once. Luslec was using very powerful Spells and Dark Charge, a transformation that Jinsung hadn't seen in a long time. Even in his state, Urek was able to deal with most of Luslec's Spells with pure brute force. Traumerei wouldn't do any of this. All Creatures would kill them all.
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I don't know how you can't when All Creatures is his Shinwonryu. Yama kept ripping them apart? When did he do that? Traumerei was going to kill everyone at the Nest with it, everyone felt it. Gustang is the reason why he stopped his attack.
Through these:
and

At least once for Arrogant Kraken and Enraged Rapid. I don't care the emphasis on fodders in the Nest or its entire destruction, Yama was fine, maybe he would be helpless against Valhalla (or Leviathan) at that time but he would not die against any other shinheuh on one one one. That was the entire discussion if there is any point, if you can manage to hold off 23 different directly controlled anima by Traumerei, and the rest of your troops dealing with other shinheuhs and all, you have an above zero chance of tiring Traumerei, he does not have endless stamina. But this does not work, since in that ridiculously low possibility of Traumerei getting tired of regenerating all creatures, he would do more powerful disconnection and other type of attacks and still finish them off. As I emphasize, this is never a pure raw power discussion for me, but attrition. We could have debated raw power to consider disconnection.

So how do you explain how 3D Disconnect can destroy Hunos which you proved to me is an imagination?
I said it before (and said it many times) what problem do you have with the strongest Anima user in history using Anima? It's not useless, at least as far as I can see. Traumerei thinks before using those shinheuhs. Gustang cannot kill any of Traumerei's shinheuhs. Those shinheuhs are endless and cannot die.

I have a feeling you didn't watch the fight between Traumerei and Gustang.
Disconnect was used by him at least 3/4 of the fight.
Wall of Malice was only used when he was in true form.
Valhalla (also an Anima technique) was rarely used, Gustang only saw it a few times.

And you expected him to use it from the beginning? Gustang also didn't use the library from the beginning.
I am sorry friend but I did read them several times (for other reasons as well), there have been more than one fight between Traumerei and Gustang, check those out, too. I am not trying to constrain an Anima user to not use anima, you do it once against Gustang in the fish tank and did not work, do it again and did not work, and do it third time now you have unlocked the Achievement of "Strategical Genius". xD In their final fight, even there was a case where Gustang created another animal and dealt with his animals, followed by proposing to gifting that shark to Traumerei. It is that ridiculous. He started to use disconnection quite late compared to a normal standards, but all these were also affected by classical manga trope of "showing all your attacks from weakest to strongest before you check out". Except Valhalla, Traumerei should have started to use Disconnection from the very beginning.
For Hunos destruction, as far as I can see a 3D disconnection encapsulated it completely and throw it into another dimension or whatever, maybe loosely similar to Obito Uchiha of Naruto. Otherwise he was intangible, could not be cut through.
 

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That is the entire idea dude. Considering the expected power gap between Urek and Luslec, halting him to need to break through the spell was a merit, and was mandatory to be able to escape with V, otherwise Urek was catching up.
But Urek not catching up had nothing to do with the spells merit tho?

It was literally because he was surprised, it's not like the spell froze him or something.

Luslec took advantages of Ureks surprise and him voluntarily halting his pursuit to teleport further before Urek regained himself.


Call it plot convenient because V needed to escape from certain death for future arcs but the entire thing hinged on Urek being surprised, not on the spell actually stopping him.
 

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Acc to Mirchea as long as dark charge is deactivated forcefully, he will always be trapped in the space. And UM has been seen helpless in that space not once, not twice but thrice in a row.
But Urek got out of it immediately and luslec can't damage him with this technique either. So in a worst case scenario, urek can just keep punching out of this space until luslec runs out of energy. Then it's game over. But if Urek spams shinsoo beams at luslec from long range, there is nothing luslec can do. The fight is over in a matter of several seconds in that scenario.
 
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