Discussion Wano Kuni Discussion

[Schabrak]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Aside from doubting it, what's the point of your post? At least Of course it would be to accommodate to the bigger "samurai" theme not that much present in Monsters, making it look distinct from 90% of the rest of OP with normal western wood/brick buildings used in One Piece.

Fact is dragons and swordman were part of the village/s in the "Monsters" world, just as they are/were in Wa no Kuni, but a legend to everywhere else in the OP world. What leads you to think otherwise?

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Aside from doubting it, what's the point of your post? At least Of course it would be to accommodate to the bigger "samurai" theme not that much present in Monsters, making it look distinct from 90% of the rest of OP with normal western wood/brick buildings used in One Piece.

Fact is dragons and swordman were part of the village/s in the "Monsters" world, just as they are/were in Wa no Kuni, but a legend to everywhere else in the OP world. What leads you to think otherwise?

The point of my post is to express my disbelief in your opinion that that town could be in Wa No. First of all, swordsman are known in the town in Monsters but not the existence and behavior of Samurai (they neither knew about the sword sheath nor about the "warrior´s soul"). Second, Ryuuma, who obviously comes from Wa No, did not know about dragons while the entire town knew about their existence. We never saw an island so far that had this much disparity in knowledge concerning a major event and of course a major threat. Third, Wa No seems to always have been a secluded and xenophobic place considering that nobody seems to know what´s going on there. Him killing a dragon in Wa No would probably not become a legend that can even reach the East Blue (Zoro also knew about Ryuuma).

 

[asunam]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Spoiler: LATEST CHAPTER

I guess we have some new information:

- Kinemon want to go to Dressrosa as one of his comrades his being kept prisoner there,
- Kinemon and Momo reacted strangely at the name of Kaidou.

Also, from the fact that Kinemon want to go to Dressrosa to free a friend, i assume that Momo was indeed taken away from Kinemon along their journey (and not from Wano Country).

 

[Zasz]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Spoiler: RECENT CHAPTER

I guess we have some new information:

- Kinemon want to go to Dressrosa as one of his comrades his being kept prisoner there,
- Kinemon and Momo reacted strangely at the name of Kaidou.

Also, from the fact that Kinemon want to go to Dressrosa to free a friend, i assume that Momo was indeed taken away from Kinemon along their journey (and not from Wano Country).

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Kaido is a Wano citizen.

 

[Uriel]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Moderator Notice:
Please remember the 24hr spoiler rule to avoid ruining the fun for others.~ Uriel

 

[kkck]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Seeing the way kinemon and momonosuke behave I would argue wano will be very different from what we saw in the wanted chapter with ryuma. Basically I would expect a samurainification of the country. Where ryuma was is not quite a place which appeared to have strong samurai influence. In terms of history I would argue that by now most of the country is under the influence of samurai.

Anyways, I don't actually expect kinemon's power to be a standard thing i wano. I have made the point before that if the very soldiers in wano are even close to kinemon's power they would be the single strongest military organization in the world by quite a bit. The last arc has shown us that the large forces of the world are on a race to accumulate power for a huge war. The point was made that if the marines managed to turn their soldiers into giants they would effectively take over the world. Kaido has an enormous army of DF users. BB seems to be out and about to collect strong fruits. In any case, I don't actually expect all those potential giants or fake fruit users to be men of actual strength. They could be above average however the point is still that they are aiming for strong militias. As we have seen giants on average are not that strong when compared against actual strong peoples. At least just being a giant is not quite enough so far. Same thing will be the case for kaido's army, just being fruit users won't make the soldiers strong. My idea is that the users will simply be people like the elite marines or pirates who fought the WB war but with fruits or some other ability. In this regard, would we expect a gigantified or zoanified version of either to be a beast? It would definitely be strong however the point will still be advantage in numbers, not in quality. Kinemom, brook or just about any of the strawhats would be stronger than just about any of the regular soldiers who would be given fake DFs or hypothetically made into giants. In particular kinemon seems to be a haki user with a decent bit of strength.

Now, if just giving elite marines or strong pirate militia fruits and giants can make such a huge difference then I don't see how it would make sense plotwise that your average wano samurai would even be a match at all to kinemon. If that was truly the case then wano wouldn't just have a strong army, they would be the single strongest military force in the world by A LOT. If the marines can take over the world by just making marines into giants then wano would be able to take on the marines and the 4 emperors if soldiers of kinemon's strength are common. Kinemon is not necessarily the strongest samurai in wano however his power should still be relevant in comparison to the big shots there at least. He should be at least the equivalent to a vice admiral if he was to be ranked IMO.

 

[Uriel]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

I would like that for me it seems that they were starving from before. I know the whole deal about Monsters, so please don't use that argument. I just think there is something more into it.
To point the obivous: One Piece DOES NOT include Monsters as part of the same universe, only takes some elements from it.

No. The second Romance Dawn one shot is a separate story. In the second version of Romance Dawn, Luffy receives his Strawhat from his Grandfather, who looks like Garp. The character design was merely recycled though, neither of the Romance Dawn pilots are considered canon. Monsters is canonical One Piece. Ryuma, the Samurai from the Thriller Bark arc, is confirmed to be the main character from Monsters. He wants us to see Monsters as the same story as One Piece, Romance Dawn as a separate story.

No. Monsters doesn't take place, figure that Oda says "In One Piece, Ryuma is..." and all the stuff. It happened mostly the same, but not in the same universe, If I explain myself properly.

They have problem trusting others

Well, they're in an isolated island after all.

Momo thinks that pirates are giant men weighing nearly 400kg and are more violent and strong-looking (this one is nice i think)

Well, it could be Brownbeard as far as his experience tell us.

 

[Kaiten]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Hopefully everyone is not expecting every character living in Wano Kuni to be a Samurai. Not everyone in feudal Japan was a Samurai, only the warrior caste. There still were peasants and merchants, nobles, wood cutters, butchers, carpenters, and more. It would also be silly to expect Wano to be some crime free utopia. Just because the samurai are strong does not mean the country is free from schemers and petty criminals. I expect the samurai of Wano will be a warrior elite, not the entire population of the country.

This weeks chapter revealed a clue bugger than anything in the OP. Kinemon seeks to free a comrade imprisoned in Dressrosa. He and Momo both acted quite suspiciously when Kaido was mentioned, something the Strawhats even noted. There is some connection between Wano, Kaido and Dressrosa. Despite their reputation for ferocity, Kin's friend was captured and imprisoned. I wonder if it is possible that Kaido used his army of fruit users to overwhelm Wano Kuni. No matter how weak the fruit users, and how strong the samurai, 500 is to many. Those are overwhelming numbers. If smile production did not begin until after CC's return to Punk Hazard, that would mean Kaido only built is army over the last two years, or less. The fall of Wano Kuni would not have been known by the Srawhats (or audience) due to the timeskip. They still have not been to inhabited island in the New World where they could have heard the news, only the hidden facility of Punk Hazard.

 

[Anduren]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Umm.... I noticed something interesting in the last couple of animated episodes that I was curious about. Kinemon's speech patterns remind me a bit of Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin.

More particularly where he ends most of his lines with "...de gozaru". I guess it translates to "that it is" or something like that when i read the subtitles (I'm no expert on Japanese so correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm mostly curious whether this speech pattern is common in the samurai setting as a formality; something that's being used by Oda as a reference to Rurouni Kenshin; or just something the animators added and not actually in the manga when translated from script.

So if anybody have any ideas about this I'd be very greatful to be enlightened .

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Umm.... I noticed something interesting in the last couple of animated episodes that I was curious about. Kinemon's speech patterns remind me a bit of Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin.

More particularly where he ends most of his lines with "...de gozaru". I guess it translates to "that it is" or something like that when i read the subtitles (I'm no expert on Japanese so correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm mostly curious whether this speech pattern is common in the samurai setting as a formality; something that's being used by Oda as a reference to Rurouni Kenshin; or just something the animators added and not actually in the manga when translated from script.

So if anybody have any ideas about this I'd be very greatful to be enlightened .

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=36

 

[Kaiten]

Re: The backstory of Wanokuni's Samurai - the hints

Sorry if this already was posted, but I just noticed it today: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17698/one-piece_ch580_by_franky-house/12

In the middle panel, a Samurai can clearly be seen on the far right. The top knot, gi, and katana are unmistakable. I wonder what it portends, that a Samurai was fighting alongside the Whitebeard Pirates and their allies, at Marineford.

 

[BurnSchulz]

Isn't that one of Whitebeards Division Comanders, Izou? Alongside with all the other division Commanders.

But obviously his main weapons were pistols... so i really wonder who the one holding the Katana there might be.

Now i have a really good question i wish to ask Oda in the SPS!

 

[Kaiten]

I forgot about Izo, the resemblance is unquestionable. Like you said though, Izo was never shown wearing a sword. I actually think there will be a connection between Whitebeard and Wano Kuni, that will be revealed over the course of Dressrosa and Zou. Wano is supposedly a closed country, yet Ace was allowed entry. What appears to be a samurai in the background of this page. I wonder if whatever led Kinemon to Zou is related to the aftremath of the war, and changes in the balance of power.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

I've posted it elsewhere, but Wano Kuni is meant as a reference to Tokugawa Japan (1603 - 1868). A closed country, led by an official called the Shogun, that has successfully repulsed incursion by the outside world (World Government in One Piece, colonizing European powers in real life). Wa is an ancient name for Japan, Chinese in origin. Wano Kuni means Country of Harmony (or peace), an old name for Japan. Japan's isolation ended in 1853 when a hostile, outside power forcibly opened Japan, imposing humiliating "unequal treaties" on the Shogun. A civil war followed, between supporters of the Shogun and Emperor. The War ended in victory for the nobles loyal to the Emperor, resulting in the Meiji Restoration. Japan quickly modernized, forcing the suspension of the unequal treaties, and emergence of Japan as a major power.

My hypothesis is that Oda will follow the real history. After the War, Wano Kuni was opened by force, under humiliating terms. Based on Momo and Kin's reaction, there seems to be a connection between Kaido and Wa. What if Kaido's Smile Army was the equivalent of Commodore Perry's Black Ships? Kaido forcibly opened Wa to the outside world, imposed a treaty, claiming Wa as his territory? Kin, and his friends, are part of the resistance, loyal to the Shogun, but opposed to the foreigners. In real life that role would have been filled by the Shinsengumi.

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

I forgot about Izo, the resemblance is unquestionable. Like you said though, Izo was never shown wearing a sword. I actually think there will be a connection between Whitebeard and Wano Kuni, that will be revealed over the course of Dressrosa and Zou. Wano is supposedly a closed country, yet Ace was allowed entry. What appears to be a samurai in the background of this page. I wonder if whatever led Kinemon to Zou is related to the aftremath of the war, and changes in the balance of power.

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

I've posted it elsewhere, but Wano Kuni is meant as a reference to Tokugawa Japan (1603 - 1868). A closed country, led by an official called the Shogun, that has successfully repulsed incursion by the outside world (World Government in One Piece, colonizing European powers in real life). Wa is an ancient name for Japan, Chinese in origin. Wano Kuni means Country of Harmony (or peace), an old name for Japan. Japan's isolation ended in 1853 when a hostile, outside power forcibly opened Japan, imposing humiliating "unequal treaties" on the Shogun. A civil war followed, between supporters of the Shogun and Emperor. The War ended in victory for the nobles loyal to the Emperor, resulting in the Meiji Restoration. Japan quickly modernized, forcing the suspension of the unequal treaties, and emergence of Japan as a major power.

My hypothesis is that Oda will follow the real history. After the War, Wano Kuni was opened by force, under humiliating terms. Based on Momo and Kin's reaction, there seems to be a connection between Kaido and Wa. What if Kaido's Smile Army was the equivalent of Commodore Perry's Black Ships? Kaido forcibly opened Wa to the outside world, imposed a treaty, claiming Wa as his territory? Kin, and his friends, are part of the resistance, loyal to the Shogun, but opposed to the foreigners. In real life that role would have been filled by the Shinsengumi.

Pretty much what i thought, only that Kaidou´s crew would be way more aggressive and violent which is maybe why Kinemon and his companions had to flee (he was talking about someone chasing them)

 

[Kaiten]

Pretty much what i thought, only that Kaidou´s crew would be way more aggressive and violent which is maybe why Kinemon and his companions had to flee (he was talking about someone chasing them)

Yeah, actual violence, rather than simple intimidation, would not be surprising. It sounds like someone chased him from Wa, and Zou was where he hoped to escape. Until the significance of Zou (other than being the Heart Pirates present location) is known, it is hard to say exactly why Kin was headed there. Things do make some sense if Wa was invaded, Kin and his friends were part of the resistance, and were forced into exile by the invaders. Zou could be a friendly island, where members of the resistance hoped to gather. If that is the case, Zou would be a safe place for the Heart Pirates to wait for their Captain, while preparing for the next stage of Law's plan.

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Yeah, actual violence, rather than simple intimidation, would not be surprising. It sounds like someone chased him from Wa, and Zou was where he hoped to escape. Until the significance of Zou (other than being the Heart Pirates present location) is known, it is hard to say exactly why Kin was headed there. Things do make some sense if Wa was invaded, Kin and his friends were part of the resistance, and was forced into exile by the invaders.

That would also mean that we could get another ally for the SHs against Kaidou which would make their victory in the end more believable.

 

[Kaiten]

That would also mean that we could get another ally for the SHs against Kaidou which would make their victory in the end more believable.

The Samurai would be powerful allies to have. If building alliances is as important in the New World as it seems, then befriending Wa will be important long after Kaido's defeat.

 

[Uriel]

It would be SO amazing if Luffy somehow is able to get Wano as an ally! </fanboy>

 

[kkck]

Well, luffy getting wano as an ally would definitely have an impact. If it truly is a nation that managed to stay neutral and outside of the great age of piracy on its own then it has to be an enormously powerful military organization. Wano openly becoming allies with the strawhats would effectively end that neutrality which they have had and make them actual enemies to the yonko and the world government and at least frowned upon by the revolutionaries. The strawhats are already doing a bunch of stuff dangerous enough to throw the world as a whole into chaos, adding a military powerhouse like wano to the equation would be something of unfathomable consequences.

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Ont hat note, I'd love to see Wano protected by some incredibly fierce weather in a way that parallels how one of the major reasons Japan was able to stay independent as long as it was was the stormy seas of the Korean Strait that sunk the ships of invading armies like China (Even if the samurai might've been stronger warriors on average, there was no way they'd win against the sheer force of china if they had been able to land most of their fleets) and crippled their forces (this is what the term kamikaze (divine wind) originally referred to before the suicide planes). In real life, a big reason that the events in Japan occured was the "black ships" you'll often hear being referred to in anime when they talk about the topic. Basically, improvements in ship building spurred by industrialization allowed big fleets to invade the country much more readily than older ships. And given that Kaidou's crew seems to use a lot of higher tech weapons and possibly even cyborg stuff, it'd be interesting if he had figured out a way to breach said weather conditions. I could see this working because of all the parallels between Japan and Wano as well as the new world already being infamous for extreme weather conditions.

by aaronrules