WB Pirates Discussion Thread

[St Michael]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

I recognized Onigumo's (thanks for the one who corrected me :P) helmet. I may be wrong. Maybe.

Anyway , even if they weren't hurt by the end of the war .. I don't see it as a proof of strenght. They basically didn't do anything. Oops , actually they double teamed an exhausted Luffy and Onigumo handcuffed Marco from behind.

The others VA shown in action were pwned , killed or threatened.

 

[Fox666]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Jozu was defeated by surprise too ..

And Marco was double teamed by Kizaru + Doberman with Kairouseki.

How weak they are ..

Jozu simple cannot handle Aokiji freezing ability.

Of course when Whitebeard was injured in the chest by Akainu both Marco and Jozu were distracted. But if the moment they look away they are knocked down, that's just show how dangerous the Admirals are.


Also, there are plenty of guys around. Marco also had plenty of guys to assist him. So it was not a 2 vs 1 fight, but a 5.000 vs 5.000 fight, which Marco and Kizaru are part of.

None of these VA's were harmed by WB or anyone else really. And they seem to be the "best" VA's, aside from Garp that is. Also the Marines that WB did take out in that link don't seem to be VA's. The only VA's that WB took out i believe were Ronse and John Giant. But even between VA's there clearly seems to be a difference in strength.

John Giant?? If there is any difference, I bet that John Giant is STRONGER than the rest.

And by the way, these guys were harmed by someone. At the Shichibukai meeting, you see Doflamingo playing with at least two of them (the mustache guy and the guy behind him). While there is not proof for now, I bet that the other two also are vice-admirals.

All of those guys can use Haki plus they know Rokushiki and are undoubtedly master at it. So I compare them to a Haki using and overall stronger version of Lucci. While guys like Marco, Vista and Joz are strong but they never managed to injure or take out anyone worth mentioning throughout the entire war.

I won't take Haki in count.

First of all we don't know yet how exactly how Haki works. Second because we can't say who don't has Haki just because they did not used it.

I could argue that Rokushiki is Color of Armament the same way Mantra is pure Color of Observation, and this is what meant saying that the Vice-Admirals use Haki. But I guess a theory won't serve as evidence (for now).

But my point is that Haki is well spread and is not a secret society of any kind:
- Hatchan, good old Arlong subordinate, had knowledge of it;
- The Kuja all use it;
- The Marines elite all can use it;
- At least 4 of the Whitebeard commanders can use it;

So I don't see any reason to say that the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci cannot use it, just because we did not see them using it yet.

 

[bittman]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Well a few things on the power levels:

1. WB pirates were not disappointing, it's just that they were fighting against the strongest opponents to pirates in the world (marines) plus some very (read: very) powerful pirates (Shichibukai). If anything, the fact that they survived longer than 5 minutes against an army that included the three admirals (all shown to be far greater alone than pre-timeskip Strawhats combined) is a huge indication of their power.
2. So touched on this above, but they were against admirals. If the WB pirates had trounced these guys, last 50 villains of One Piece would be pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-ex-marine-pirate. Snorefest, no thank you.
3. The WB Pirates were 1600 strong, the fact the marines had to pull out all their decent fighters and the Shichibukai is a testament to their power. If it was just 1600 fodder plus Whitebeard, send one admiral and battle over.
4. Annnnd: as with all arguments on vice admirals, they are heavily under-rated. Sure, they have haki, but I'm not even going to look into that. The Vice Admirals are a level below the admirals, that should be a clear indication of their power. There is a gap, won't deny that, but the vice admirals are not weak. I don't believe I saw any WB commanders trump a vice admiral, only Whitebeard himself.
5. And that scene with Doflamingo: yeah. He's Doflamingo. Tell me what you think Doflamingo would be on the ranking thread and I'll tell you plot-wise he's ultimately going to be a level higher than that at least. Vice Admirals and WB commanders were both playthings for him.

Think that covered everything. Tl;dr: marines are actually (gasp) powerful, WB pirates did good considering, don't underestimate VA's or Doflamingo.

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Jozu simple cannot handle Aokiji freezing ability.

Of course when Whitebeard was injured in the chest by Akainu both Marco and Jozu were distracted. But if the moment they look away they are knocked down, that's just show how dangerous the Admirals are.


Also, there are plenty of guys around. Marco also had plenty of guys to assist him. So it was not a 2 vs 1 fight, but a 5.000 vs 5.000 fight, which Marco and Kizaru are part of.
John Giant?? If there is any difference, I bet that John Giant is STRONGER than the rest.

And by the way, these guys were harmed by someone. At the Shichibukai meeting, you see Doflamingo playing with at least two of them (the mustache guy and the guy behind him). While there is not proof for now, I bet that the other two also are vice-admirals.

I won't take Haki in count.

First of all we don't know yet how exactly how Haki works. Second because we can't say who don't has Haki just because they did not used it.

I could argue that Rokushiki is Color of Armament the same way Mantra is pure Color of Observation, and this is what meant saying that the Vice-Admirals use Haki. But I guess a theory won't serve as evidence (for now).

But my point is that Haki is well spread and is not a secret society of any kind:
- Hatchan, good old Arlong subordinate, had knowledge of it;
- The Kuja all use it;
- The Marines elite all can use it;
- At least 4 of the Whitebeard commanders can use it;

So I don't see any reason to say that the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci cannot use it, just because we did not see them using it yet.

Size means absolutely nothing in battle and if it did then Oars Jr. would have absolutely rampaged through all of Marineford and owned almost everyone in his path. So yeah i'll take that size bet against you any day of the week. Also not being distracted in battle is a very good indication of someones overall power as well. WB, once he entered the battlefield, never really got distracted and dropped his guard. Yet his "sons" were literally being injured and killed all around him. So it's all on Marco and Joz and any other Division Commander for allowing themselves to be distracted and putting themselves in certain situations in the first place. And what do you mean by "I won't take Haki in count"? Are you serious? Haki is presumably the most powerful weapon that has been shown in the entire manga. And we know how the basics work, because they were explained to us and we saw them used countless times now. So yes i'm going to take a good Haki user over any level of a none Haki user. Just like anyone else probably would.

Also i was talking about those VA's being harmed in the actual war. Because so what Donflamingo messed around with a few VA's? That doesn't show anything at all except that he likes to mess with people. Which we already kind of knew plus he did the very same thing to Joz during the war. And i'm sure that he is way ahead of all of them in terms of power. But thats a whole different story. Also i do see a reason as to why Crocodile and Lucci could not have used Haki. They both faced life and death situations and never showed any signs of Haki use. So if that didn't force them to use Haki then they obviously didn't have the ability to use it. Could they obtain Haki? Sure. But they haven't had it yet. So anyone who is most likely a Rokushiki master and fairly proficient at Haki is definitely a strong induvidual. Not everyone can be on the level of the Admirals or pirates who can match or come lose to matching the Admirals. But at the end of the day the VA's are the Marine's second greatest unit, which is a fairly big deal.

 

[Freid]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Tbh, the whole thing with the Admirals not being harmed is the same reason Doflamingo or Mihawk were not get largely injured during that war. They are going to become the Strawhats major opponents in the future and so it would be weird if they were shown getting wtf pwned by someone else. Their bad ass image would have totally been crushed if we saw them not being so effective against other people. This war in fact was a good way of making them look even more formidable for surviving such a war unscathed. Even if Marco and Jozu were able to fight an admiral equally, which I think they are, Oda would not show us one of the Strawhat's main future opponents being injured by them, cause then our anticipation for the fight would probably decrease. WB injuring Akainu did not have had any effect on Akainu's image though cause firstly its WB, and secondly, the damage he did in return enhanced that image Oda is trying to maintain for all of the Strawhats future major opponents. The Admirals, Doflamingo and Mihawk are obviously not the strongest in the world, but they are still going to be portrayed as formidable all the way up till Luffy and crew deals with them. Oda had no reason to maintain the bad ass image of anyone that wasn't going to be a major part of the future story which is why the pirates side were the ones with the most injuries. Personally, if I had seen an admiral get wtf pwned by someone other than the strongest man in the world in that war, that would instantly minus 5 points from their bad ass image.

I Also think it's extremely silly to say that none of the underlings of a yonkous crew can match an admiral. That would mean, in the New World, WB would be the only one taking out pirates above Vice Admiral? I'm pretty sure that the Admirals wont be the strongest guys in the new world, therefore it would be silly to think that WB was the one handling every opponent that came their way that was over VA level.

 

[Fox666]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Size means absolutely nothing in battle and if it did then Oars Jr. would have absolutely rampaged through all of Marineford and owned almost everyone in his path. So yeah i'll take that size bet against you any day of the week.

What was that supposed to mean? Is that just because I said John Giant is stronger than the others?

I don't care about size (do I said anything about Ronse?). John Giant is clearly an authority over the others vice-admirals, since he commanded the Buster Call in Ennies Lobby.

Also not being distracted in battle is a very good indication of someones overall power as well. WB, once he entered the battlefield, never really got distracted and dropped his guard. Yet his "sons" were literally being injured and killed all around him. So it's all on Marco and Joz and any other Division Commander for allowing themselves to be distracted and putting themselves in certain situations in the first place.

Certain.

And what do you mean by "I won't take Haki in count"? Are you serious? Haki is presumably the most powerful weapon that has been shown in the entire manga. And we know how the basics work, because they were explained to us and we saw them used countless times now. So yes i'm going to take a good Haki user over any level of a none Haki user. Just like anyone else probably would.

We never really saw the Admirals using Haki, except for the shield in the execution platform. Yet they are one of the strongest beings in the series.

The Strawhats already defeated the Priests in Skypeia Arc. Not to say that Sandersonia and Marigold were easily defeated by Luffy.

So I don't think Haki is the strongest thing out there or that it gives such an immense increase of power.


And at most you did not get what I am saying. I am saying that Haki is not a secret society, it's well spread. If even Hatchan heard of it, I can't see how the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci would not knew Haki.

And second, it seems a lot of people end up using it unconscious. Luffy used CoO tons of times (vs Mr. 3, vs CP9, vs Mihawk, etc) without having any idea of what he was doing.

Either way, I don't really think of Haki as an argument in much favor of the Vice-Admirals.

Also i do see a reason as to why Crocodile and Lucci could not have used Haki. They both faced life and death situations and never showed any signs of Haki use. So if that didn't force them to use Haki then they obviously didn't have the ability to use it. Could they obtain Haki? Sure. But they haven't had it yet.

Except that almost nobody so far "used" it? Including the Vice-Admirals? We won't knew of the Vice-Admirals Haki hadn't the marine doctor said so.

Why didn't John Giant and Ronse used it in an almost certain death situation? That mean they don't know it?

Crocodile automatic Logia defense as CoO, anyone?

Tbh, the whole thing with the Admirals not being harmed is the same reason Doflamingo or Mihawk were not get largely injured during that war. They are going to become the Strawhats major opponents in the future and so it would be weird if they were shown getting wtf pwned by someone else. Their bad ass image would have totally been crushed if we saw them not being so effective against other people. This war in fact was a good way of making them look even more formidable for surviving such a war unscathed. Even if Marco and Jozu were able to fight an admiral equally, which I think they are, Oda would not show us one of the Strawhat's main future opponents being injured by them, cause then our anticipation for the fight would probably decrease. WB injuring Akainu did not have had any effect on Akainu's image though cause firstly its WB, and secondly, the damage he did in return enhanced that image Oda is trying to maintain for all of the Strawhats future major opponents.

Sorry, but do you notice that you basically saying something like "they are not strong as they looks, the author showed they doing strong people things just because he wanted us to think they are strong"?

If we go deep on that argument, we will never find any answer, right?

I Also think it's extremely silly to say that none of the underlings of a yonkous crew can match an admiral. That would mean, in the New World, WB would be the only one taking out pirates above Vice Admiral? I'm pretty sure that the Admirals wont be the strongest guys in the new world, therefore it would be silly to think that WB was the one handling every opponent that came their way that was over VA level.

In my opinion, if an Admirals was a pirate, he certain would be able to become Yonkou.

It's not like they are invencible. Marco is strong, he, along with Jozu, have chances of defeating an Admiral. Not to say that in One Piece the "environment" can define the result of a battle.

It's just that there aren't many beings in the World that can defeat them in a 1x1.

 

[Freid]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Nah I'm not saying that they are not as strong as they look, its more like the pirates are not as weak as they look. There was no way during that war we were ever going to see the admirals, Mihawk and Doflamingo suffer the same treatment as the WB pirates. If someone had beaten them up so early, the anticipation for their battle with the Strawhats would most certainly have decreased. Oda won't have his future major antagonists look weak before their encounter against the strawhats. Oda knows how to raise our anticipation for a fight which most of the time involves making the opponent look as badass as possible. Imagine during CP9 arc, if we saw a flashback of Rob luchi getting wtf pwned by someone else in the past. Instead Oda made a flashback to even increase enhance his image and also create excitement when Luffy finally beats him. To us, we would feel like Luffy was the first guy to ever beat him. Oda even made a VA praise Rob Luchi which again was a way to enhance his image. We have already seen that Oda does certain things in order to make people look bad ass. I'm not taking anything away from the admirals strength, Its simply that the plot was not in Marco or Jozu's favour. Oda made them look bad ass for sometime but afterwards it wasn't nessecary. I'm just bringing in a different approach to the debate cause debating about what happened in the war is pretty boring. You would find that allot of the time, views on things could change when you don't actually look into what happened in the manga, and rather used manga logic or look into why Oda may have done things that way.

Also its silly to say the admirals are as strong as a yonkou. What does that make Garp, Sengoku and possibly Kong. So basically in the war, the marines were up against one yonkou level pirate, whilst the pirates were up against five yonkou level marines. I think you are underminding the strength of a yonkou. The fact that only four of them is all it takes to rule the New World speaks for itself. Again, I don't think the admirals would be the strongest in the new world and so its silly to think WB was the only one taking out levels above VA. Or is everyone in the New World VA level.

 

[redred]

Re: Is it just me, or were the Whitebear pirates rather weak?

Without making this into an overcomplicated post about who is stronger than who, I'll simply say that its not that the whitebeard pirates are weak. Its just that the WG is stronger.
ofc when you put anybody who calls themselves the best against someone who is better, youre gonna see the loser as a weakling.
now put the whitebeard crew against any other crew that we have seen thus far and ask yourself if they still seem rather weak.

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

For me it's clear: WB pirates are not weak. I expected a bit more from them, but guys, they were fighting against the army of the best elite soldiers of Marine and Shichibukais, so it's rather obvious that their opponent is stronger. It was a bit of suicide. Also WB himself was in a bad state, so he also could have done more and also he was stabbed by his comrade and it was the main problem of WB pirates, cause it played the most important role in this war. Also Ace played dumb when he didn't get back and tried to challenge Akainu. WB pirates could have won. They were really the strongest crew and even now they are really strong.

I'd like to say that it's not right to understimate vice admirals. They are really strong, they have haki and have great experience. The majority of them were vice admirals during Roger's time, so it's obvious that they are really tough. Only two of them were taken out and it was performed by WB himself, so it's obvious that they are strong and that they are not vice admirals for nothing. We will see them for sure in near future as important players. Even after the time-skip I think that they would be tough opponents even for Luffy and Zoro, not saying about other crew members.

 

[kulugo]

so who gets to claim WB and Ace's bounty?

 

[kkck]

BB and akainu I guess? Akainu could have made a pretty penny for himself if he does get bounties from killing pirates during the war.

 

[St Michael]

I'm pretty sure marines haven't access to the bounty. If they do , Sakazuki is among the wealthiest men in the world.

 

[zerocooldx]

I fully expect the WB pirates such as Marco, Joz, and Vista to have gotten stronger over the last two years. And the reason i believe that is because now the WB pirates have actually had to engage in real combat to defend all of WB's territories. While WB was alive i don't see how anyone in their right mind would really ever challenge them on any type of a regular basis. Maybe they had battles once every few years or something, but no one would really challenge the WB pirates because of WB. But now the tables have basically changed with WB's death and i'm sure that a lot of pirates will try to be the ones to crush the WB pirates and take their territories. So i am looking forward to seeing how many battles the WB pirates have engaged in and how much stronger they have grown as a result of that.

 

[scav]

If we only count strong people during the war, let's say its was:
WB, marco, joz, vista, jimbei,ivankov on one side VS 3 admirals, shichibukais, BB crews, garp & sengoku. So for me WB pirates lost cuz they had too many opponements, not cuz they are weak or something. And they were unprepared when sengoku had a really good plan. for me marco, joz and vista and really strong, specially marco ( they even said only him or one yonkou can defeat BB). i think they disbanded the crew since WB is dead, but we will saw them again (marco,joz,vista) and somehow they will help SH again.
And Marco is amazing, at the beginning of the war, he had a 1 vs 1 against kizaru and kizaru couldn't do anything

 

[DEATHBOTT]

I fully expect the WB pirates such as Marco, Joz, and Vista to have gotten stronger over the last two years. And the reason i believe that is because now the WB pirates have actually had to engage in real combat to defend all of WB's territories. While WB was alive i don't see how anyone in their right mind would really ever challenge them on any type of a regular basis. Maybe they had battles once every few years or something, but no one would really challenge the WB pirates because of WB. But now the tables have basically changed with WB's death and i'm sure that a lot of pirates will try to be the ones to crush the WB pirates and take their territories. So i am looking forward to seeing how many battles the WB pirates have engaged in and how much stronger they have grown as a result of that.

ace challenged him. and it also said that ace fought doma and then doma showed up in the war as an ally. i think thats how wb gets allies. he sends his commanders out to fight them. after they lose he ofers them a place as his ally. if his commander is beaten then he probabaly goes himself but that probably never happens. but yeah i would say people would have challeneged the wb pirates heaps. new comers like ace looking to prove themselves or old enemies like crocodile looing for payback.

 

[kkck]

I think the WB pirates were in a general disadvantage when they fought the marines. Both forces gathered all the military might they could but there was one thing the WB pirates could do nothing about. They fought in the enemies home turf and the marines made sure to take that to their advantage at every plausible chance. Seriously, just look at the sheer amount of traps the marines had set up. A huge iron wall which not even WB could break which basically allowed akainu to bomb the pirates to his whim, strategically placed cannons at every corner, a small army of expendable cyborgs. Above that, the pirates had to tank through all of this to save ace. The war was not really fought on even ground at least IMO. Each commander had to fight several enemies to boot. Marco fought aokiji and akainu at different points, jozu had to deal with crocodile, flamingo, a short skirmish with mihawk, and aokiji, vista dealt with mihawk and who knows who else. We saw a couple of commander dealing with other shichibukai too. Lets see the marines fighting WB at his turf and see what happens. There is a reason the marines waited to have a chance to lure WB into an all out war where they could set the conditions.

 

[DEATHBOTT]

I think the WB pirates were in a general disadvantage when they fought the marines. Both forces gathered all the military might they could but there was one thing the WB pirates could do nothing about. They fought in the enemies home turf and the marines made sure to take that to their advantage at every plausible chance. Seriously, just look at the sheer amount of traps the marines had set up. A huge iron wall which not even WB could break which basically allowed akainu to bomb the pirates to his whim, strategically placed cannons at every corner, a small army of expendable cyborgs. Above that, the pirates had to tank through all of this to save ace. The war was not really fought on even ground at least IMO. Each commander had to fight several enemies to boot. Marco fought aokiji and akainu at different points, jozu had to deal with crocodile, flamingo, a short skirmish with mihawk, and aokiji, vista dealt with mihawk and who knows who else. We saw a couple of commander dealing with other shichibukai too. Lets see the marines fighting WB at his turf and see what happens. There is a reason the marines waited to have a chance to lure WB into an all out war where they could set the conditions.

if they didn't have to save ace wb could have just sank the island. i still wonder how anyone including roger could fight wb at sea. must be haki to the max degree.

 

[kkck]

I don't think it was haki alone. For one thing, WB himself had haki and even the conqueror's haki. I don't think roger would have held that over WB. It is within the realm of possibilities that roger was a melee fighter or a swordsman with no fruit but IMO having a fruit would make him a lot more interesting and better explain how he opposed WB and reached the top of the world.

 

[DEATHBOTT]

I don't think it was haki alone. For one thing, WB himself had haki and even the conqueror's haki. I don't think roger would have held that over WB. It is within the realm of possibilities that roger was a melee fighter or a swordsman with no fruit but IMO having a fruit would make him a lot more interesting and better explain how he opposed WB and reached the top of the world.

maybe something like what the admirals used to protect the stand. though that still wouldnt stop a tidal wave.


on a side note, whitebeard must have been quite old by the time he started his crew in order to have a large enough mustache to name it after him and have it on his jolly roger. unless he changed it later on. same with roger, his mustache on his flag is massive. surly he didnt have that when he started his crew especially seeing him as a kid when he asked rayleigh to join. though wb did look pretty old in that flashback he had when he died and had no mo. im actually quite suprised there arnt many old members in his crew like rayleigh. you think they all died or they were really young like shanks or something.

 

[St Michael]

I think that we don't know how old is Marco , Jozu and Vista

They seemed like already important crewmembers 20 years ago. Maybe they are like 50 by now. Espicially Marco .. I suspect his fruit to prevent him from time