Shounen [Webtoon] DICE by Yunhyunseok

[kendama]

As for Eunju, we already know that X is trying to drag her into the game....the only question is whether she's going to join in. If she doesn't, she's effectively useless, however, if she does, she's pretty much lost against X in their battle of wills.

There's a third option: she resists X to the end, and that proves instrumental in defeating him eventually. That's my current bet.

 

[syx]

Eunju is in a pinch here. She can't reach the two fighters with her voice, nor can she stop them by force. X will most likely try to make her a Dicer, but I have no idea how Eunju - as a new Dicer - will be able to stop them. It's already questionable if she will accept X's terms anyway. In my opinion, she has no chance of winning in this current scenario. She will lose either way, unless someone else intervenes. Also, I don't know if she is going to play a major role in defeating X. Our protagonist, Dongtae, is already at war against X. Non-Dicers haven't shown to have any traits which could pose a real threat to X, yet. Just pure ideals won't cut it in my opinion. But let's see how things will turn out in the future. There must be a reason why X tries so hard to involve Eunju in his game other than making one of the most important persons for Dongtae a permanent target.

As for Mooyoung, I have lost any interest in him. Don't know if it was such a great idea of the author to make him a "loser".

 

[kendama]

@syx:

I agree with your description of Eunju's predicament. Although I have described what role I believe her personality plays in inspiring/motivating Dongtae in previous comments, I admit that so far my expectations for her role in the story are mere wishful thinking. Directly she is powerless.

However, I disagree in one point: I don't believe Dongtae is at war with X. Not yet. He may be unwilling to fight other Dicers, and have refused to perform quests that involve harming or manipulating other people, but he has not made one single move to antagonise X, find out his identity and what his goals are, or thwart his plans in any way. Sure, he has stopped the mass fight in chapters 42-44, but his intervention changed nothing in the greater scheme of things and may even have been X's intention all along, in order to undermine Dongtae's authority and seed discontent among his guild members, as effectively happened.

Actually, in chapters 55-57, Dongtae as much as defended X, Dice and Dicership when Eunju lamented their existence. He refuses to admit the vicious influence X represents over people… because he escaped that influence himself and refuses to believe something that rescued him from a life of despair can be an instrument of evil. It was actually the only time he contradicted Eunju directly. That was before the PVP stage was announced, and he may think differently now or be in his way to change his mind, but right now Dongtae is not an antagonist of X. If anything, he is X's useful idiot, given that most of what has happened so far can be traced to X's manipulation of Dongtae and Dongtae's own misguided decisions and lack of reflection.

The only - small - point where Dongtae and X are on opposite sides is precisely Eunju. However, X was unfazed by Dongtae's decision to protect her and even used it to give him his A-rank quest. Clearly, X doesn't consider Dongtae a threat, much less an opponent.

Right now, the only person in the whole story who antagonises X, directly or not, no question about it, is Eunju. (Well, one could say that Mooyoung also antagonises X, but he does it by playing under his rules, so one cannot say that he opposes the very existence of Dice; rather, he wants X's role and power for himself, and in that sense is as much a pawn of X as the others.)

X himself acknowledges that antagonism by giving her, a non-Dicer, much more importance than any other Dicer, even A-Rankers. He is going so far as proposing bets and telling her things outside the framework of Dicership. the very fact that he hijacked the mobile phone of a non-Dicer is unprecedented.

Actually, let me reveal a little thing: I am Splicer, Dicescans' cleaner, proofreader and typesetter. I have already cleaned the two yet-unreleased chapters and although I don't have the translation yet, and may be ultimately proven wrong, if I interpreted correctly one thing I saw while cleaning 77, I can tell you that people who don't like Eunju will be severely annoyed when we release that chapter. As for me, I won't be surprised in the least.

One more thing, about Mooyoung: you and I have been in complete agreement about his lack of credibility as an opponent since I first mentioned it not too long ago. However, I must say that in my interpretation, DICE is a moral tale, the kind of story whose author advances a moral argument and uses a story and characters to illustrate it. In that sense, every character plays a well-defined role in that illustration.

In my opinion, Mooyoung is an illustration of the Sisyphean Myth. He is locked in a forever-repeating loop of ascension and fall. He attained near-perfection of body and skills, but has committed his life to a fool's errand. In a sense, he is the embodiment of Eunju's prediction: "the only thing changed in the end will be yourselves". He is in the story not as a main antagonist (well, that too), but in order to show one of the possible outcomes that awaits Dicers… a sorry life, tainted by solitude and murdering friends. Consumed by his own greed, so to speak.

 

[syx]

Oh yeah, my comment about Dongtae being at war against X was premature, I agree on that. What I actually mean is Dongtae isn’t on X’s side. He is cautious about him and knows there is something wrong with X’s system and X himself. There is no need for a catalyst to turn him against X. We are at an early stage of this manhwa and everything already points towards Dongtae vs. X. Eunju, at best, could be the last domino which makes Dongtae finally decide to actively oppose X. A domino which will fall one way or another given the course of story, with or without the influence of Eunju in my view. Her role would be minor in that case, unfortunately. I don’t dislike her nor is she one of my favorite characters. Well, I actually don’t have a favorite character in this series. Anyway, Eunju’s sheer rejection of the dice is admirable, but it doesn’t make her right or wrong. The dice doesn’t represent X.

Saying Eunju is the only person who opposes X is not false, but a bit overestimated. It’s not like she rushes from A to B in order to stop X. She has the luck/misfortune (or it’s planned by X) to be involved in those specific situations and so she does what she thinks is right. Eunju will only play a bigger role, if Non-Dicers are a threat to X in a form we don’t know yet. The rejection of dice or being good/kindhearted/morally right doesn't make her a threat.

I’ve read the chapters 55-57 and don’t see and remember Dongtae precisely defending X recently, but feel free to correct me since I think you know much more about what happened in the past chapters than me. Defending the dice doesn’t equal to defending X in my opinion.
Of course X is not concerned about Dongtae, why should he when even Mooyoung with all those abilities wasn't a threat? Even Mooyoung doesn't consider him a real threat. It's a common theme for antagonists to not take the protagonist seriously. Dongtae has a long way to go anyway and I don't just talk about his abilities. Mooyoung is one possible result of the dice, Dongtae will be the opposite of him.

 

[kendama]

@Syx:

Spoiler

I agree with a lot of what you say, and many of my points of disagreement are topics I have already argued in previous comments, so I'll avoid falling into a loop and repeating myself. So below follows only what I think brings something new to the discussion.

In summary:

i. "The Dice don't represent X" and "defending Dice is not the same as defending X" - the Dice, in my view, represent nothing, they are tools in the hands of the current Game Master, who happens to be X. My, and Eunju's problem, is with the quests. I have argued this extensively, many times, but I think the whole problem with X, Dice and the Quest System is that, currently, they are inextricable. It's fine for Dongtae to defend Dice, but the problem is that currently, the only way of obtaining Dice is by fulfilling X's quests or harming other Dicers. So even if he philosophically disagrees with X (and so far he doesn't even do that, he is merely suspicious), the fact is that in practice he has benefited from the system that X controls and that causes harm to other people. (And may cause to him as well.)

One could say that that is also true of people who live in the developed world and argue against inequality; why don't they move to the losing side, then? Or people who say capitalism is pernicious but don't move to Cuba. (These are merely examples and don't reflect my personal opinions on these matters.) However, one could say that those people were born in a developed country or a capitalist society, and cannot realistically make the change to live a life that is consistent with what they profess.

But Dongtae chose to use Dice and later, even seeing what harm they can do, continued to refuse to renounce them... because he benefits. True, one of the rules of Dicership is that it is irrevocable, but he could have chosen to stop his involvement as soon as it became clear that X was up to no good. In my view, Byungchul's death should have been the rupture point for anyone who seriously reflects on the matter. So it's not a matter of being born a Dicer and not being able to help it.

Sure, if Dongtae were the Game Master (or Eunju), things would probably be better. Then again, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Lord Acton said. It's not difficult to argue that the very power Dice represent is an evil in itself due to their corrupting power. Mio touched the matter in chapter 62, when she said "the power to change the world is too big to fathom". However, right now even trying to remove blame from Dicers and peg it solely on X is cutting the Dicers too much slack, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that Dongtae is a hypocrite (as many people say of Eunju, by the way). I'm saying that he has failed to think properly. Hannah Arendt would consider failure to think, or abdication of the ability to think for self-serving purposes, as the source of all evil. Indeed, even "virtuous" Dicers like Mio and Dongtae have been instruments of X's plans. Mio, for example, created Gilma by giving him Dice back in the Pandora Arc.

ii. "The rejection of dice or being good/kindhearted/morally right doesn't make her a threat." - I disagree. As I said, I believe this is a moral tale. As a story about temptation, the willpower not to fall into the trap and refuse the Faustian bargain is normally the driving force of the tale. We have seen this in DICE already: the entire A Long Day Arc is about Dongtae trying to save Eunju because of what she represents to him. And she represents that to him because of who she is morally as a person. She is a threat already... because she "made" Dongtae, metaphorically speaking. Dongtae was actually perfectly content in leaving Dicers fight each other in the Pandora Arc (chapter 19 illustrates that in the conversation between Taebin and Dongtae) until X made Eunju a target. Dongtae doesn't need a catalyst... because she was one already, years back when she treated him with kindness and humanity for the first time. Sure, eventually he will oppose X no matter what, but his mindset was formed, in great part, by the influence Eunju exerted over him in the course of years.

I never said she will have the power to oppose X directly, but by being the only one actually opposing him, she may point Dongtae the way to go. I have illustrated this differently in the first hidden text of comment #113. (And in different ways in many places... because I believe it's what her role in the story is about. Eunju-like characters are a staple of fiction.)

(Nonetheless, I must say that I wouldn't be surprised if, in his obsession to lure her in, X accidentally discloses information to her that proves his undoing later, or somehow puts her in a position to give Dongtae essential help to defeat him. This kind of dramatic irony is common in this kind of story. There has to be a reason why the author makes Eunju and X interact so often and so much.)

Forgive me if you thought I meant you when I mentioned people who dislike Eunju. I didn't, I actually enjoy the open-mindedness people in this forum have to hear opposite arguments. It's the reason I came to argue the matter here in the first place.

iii. "It’s not like she rushes from A to B in order to stop X." - true, undeniably true. So far, she has just been a hapless onlooker or unsuspecting victim, with only her morality to guide her amid the storm. Then again, it's only now that they have declared war on each other (chapter 72). Eunju was merely trying to remain safe and keep out of harm's way, and wasn't thinking of opposing him, but now she is. Similarly, she was just a nuisance to him, but now he seems to take her seriously for whatever reason. I don't know what will happen, but it is the author's duty to try to surprise us.

Now, about chapter 76, which I have already uploaded to Death Toll Reader.

There's almost nothing to comment. It was just a wrap-up chapter for the whole arc. Taebin's confession felt a little anticlimatic. But I liked Seyoon's last words, pointing out the absurdity of Mooyoung's behaviour. And I am curious about what Taebin told Mooyoung he would do if he were a god.

I was also touched by the whole "shattered dreams" feeling of this chapter. Especially Dawn's desperation/helplessness and Taebin's bitterness. I think this puts the whole argument in favour of Dice to rest.

As usual, I am most curious about Eunju-X, more than anything I've seen in the flashback. Now he is saying that only she can do what he is going to propose. Is it because she is not a Dicer?

Other than that, I really liked the art and the BGM in this chapter. Looking forward to the next!

 

[Impossibility]

Yep, it pretty much puts us at the start of the earlier flashback. There isn't any movement on the Eunju front. Taebin's confession seems a bit odd. It isn't necessarily romantic, yet if it's him just saying that he likes him...how is that a confession? That's a bit of stating the obvious. Meh.

 

[kendama]

Taebin's confession seems a bit odd. It isn't necessarily romantic, yet if it's him just saying that he likes him...how is that a confession? That's a bit of stating the obvious. Meh.

For us, maybe, but this is probably a cultural difference. Open displays of feeling is not very common in East Asian cultures, so anything like what Taebin did must feel like a confession for them.

 

[Impossibility]

For us, maybe, but this is probably a cultural difference. Open displays of feeling is not very common in East Asian cultures, so anything like what Taebin did must feel like a confession for them.

I understand that, the open display was unusual. The issue is that it's considered a confession, that would seem to suggest it was something held secret. It wasn't. Taebin might never have declared that he liked Mooyoung, but I don't think that it would qualify as something that Mooyoung was unaware of. It seemed more like stating the obvious, rather than a confession. From that perspective, it was immensely underwhelming.

 

[syx]

"The Dice don't represent X" and "defending Dice is not the same as defending X" - the Dice, in my view, represent nothing, they are tools in the hands of the current Game Master, who happens to be X. My, and Eunju's problem, is with the quests. I have argued this extensively, many times, but I think the whole problem with X, Dice and the Quest System is that, currently, they are inextricable. It's fine for Dongtae to defend Dice, but the problem is that currently, the only way of obtaining Dice is by fulfilling X's quests or harming other Dicers. So even if he philosophically disagrees with X (and so far he doesn't even do that, he is merely suspicious), the fact is that in practice he has benefited from the system that X controls and that causes harm to other people. (And may cause to him as well.)

The dice are not tools in the hands of X, not the way you described it. The dice are tools in the hand of the Dicers. It’s up to them to decide how to use those powers. It’s the quests which are in the hands of X, since well… he can do with them whatever he wants. The inseparability between X and the quests is the main problem here, like you said. But you won’t get rid of X by simply rejecting/ignoring the quests or X.

But Dongtae chose to use Dice and later, even seeing what harm they can do, continued to refuse to renounce them... because he benefits. True, one of the rules of Dicership is that it is irrevocable, but he could have chosen to stop his involvement as soon as it became clear that X was up to no good. In my view, Byungchul's death should have been the rupture point for anyone who seriously reflects on the matter. So it's not a matter of being born a Dicer and not being able to help it.

Again, choosing to use the dice is not wrong and never will be. You are directly connecting the bad events with the dice, which is incorrect. The bad events are caused by X, his quests and by bad/manipulated people. What good would came out, if Dongtae had stopped his involvement? Nothing would have changed. Someone has to stop X and that’s not going to happen if you sit idle. Am I saying Dongtae did the right thing by choosing to continue? No, because his reasoning to continue was not to stop X. But that’s part of his character development to come to conclusion to do everything in his might to defeat X.

ii. "The rejection of dice or being good/kindhearted/morally right doesn't make her a threat." - I disagree. As I said, I believe this is a moral tale. As a story about temptation, the willpower not to fall into the trap and refuse the Faustian bargain is normally the driving force of the tale. We have seen this in DICE already: the entire A Long Day Arc is about Dongtae trying to save Eunju because of what she represents to him. And she represents that to him because of who she is morally as a person. She is a threat already... because she "made" Dongtae, metaphorically speaking. Dongtae was actually perfectly content in leaving Dicers fight each other in the Pandora Arc (chapter 19 illustrates that in the conversation between Taebin and Dongtae) until X made Eunju a target. Dongtae doesn't need a catalyst... because she was one already, years back when she treated him with kindness and humanity for the first time. Sure, eventually he will oppose X no matter what, but his mindset was formed, in great part, by the influence Eunju exerted over him in the course of years.

This is a topic where we have to agree to disagree. I think you are too focused on the dice itself, but not the actual problem, which is X. It sounds like everyone who became a Dicer - whether intentionally or not - is bound to become a bad/evil person and thus has to be converted to the good side. Eunju is a morally good person, there is no doubt about it, but that doesn’t make everything what she says or thinks right. In chapter 19, she says that the world doesn’t really need the power (of the dice). Don’t you think that this is - sorry to say this - a stupid statement? At that moment, she wasn’t even aware of the dice, the quests and X. She rejected it since the beginning without a good reason and didn’t even consider how much those powers - in the right hands - could help the people. I say this again -> being good/kindhearted/morally right doesn't make her a threat. There have to be more people like Eunju and we don’t see X keeping an eye on them. If the author wants to tell me X is concerned about Eunju, because she is the only, pure good person out there, I would call this a very bad written plot/world honestly.

Eunju didn’t make Dongtae, that is way too exaggerated in my opinion. If my memory serves me right, Dongtae already questioned the quests at a very early stage of this series without Eunju’s influence. Yes, he still accepted and completed the quests anyway, but that is what makes Dongtae an interesting character. He is not the perfect good guy, but rather a realistic written character with potential for improvement. There are no instances within the series which imply that Dongtae will turn into something like X or Mooyoung in any way, despite the "bad" things Dongtae did so far. For that reason, I don’t see Eunju as anything more than a domino among several dominos which will lead to Dongtae’s resolve to defeat X.

You speak about a moral tale, the willpower to not fall into the trap and the refusal of the Faustian bargain. That is the rejection of the dice and ignoring the evil/X. This won’t stop X to spread some dice elsewhere, it won’t stop the cycle. X has to be defeated here and nothing indicates you can do this by simply ignoring the quests and/or X. I think it’s all about defeating X in his very own game, which won’t exclude the fact that it will be a moral tale.

I never said she will have the power to oppose X directly, but by being the only one actually opposing him, she may point Dongtae the way to go. I have illustrated this differently in the first hidden text of comment #113. (And in different ways in many places... because I believe it's what her role in the story is about. Eunju-like characters are a staple of fiction.)

(Nonetheless, I must say that I wouldn't be surprised if, in his obsession to lure her in, X accidentally discloses information to her that proves his undoing later, or somehow puts her in a position to give Dongtae essential help to defeat him. This kind of dramatic irony is common in this kind of story. There has to be a reason why the author makes Eunju and X interact so often and so much.)

She sure has a role in the story, but I think we have just different interpretations on how big her influence is and will be. I would agree with you, if Dongtae were to fall to the evil side. And by that I don’t intend to say Dongtae was good all the way, but he is/was nowhere near to become an evil person.

Forgive me if you thought I meant you when I mentioned people who dislike Eunju. I didn't, I actually enjoy the open-mindedness people in this forum have to hear opposite arguments. It's the reason I came to argue the matter here in the first place.

There is no need for an apology, I didn't think you referred to me.
I was just pointing out that I have no negative thoughts towards Eunju. It may sound like I dislike her and thus deny her importance, but that's not the case.

I actually enjoy a discussion with people in disagreement with me more than the other way around. The fact that we respect each other's views and don't drag them through the mire just adds more fun into the discussion. But hell, you sure can write a lot!

 

[kendama]

@Syx:

(This is probably the last I'll say in the matter, at least for now and until new elements appear in the story. You're right, there comes a point when it's better to agree to disagree. The reason I write a lot is because the only way I know to discuss is breaking my argument down into points, fleshing each one out, using as many analogies as I can, and do the same to parry my interlocutor's arguments when I disagree with them. I find DICE fascinating because of its complexity, and that motivates me to write at length about it.)

Spoiler

I think we've narrowed down the point of disagreement. Since you agree that X and the Quests are inextricable, I'll try to build on your assertion that "Eunju refuses to accept the positive role Dice can play in the world".

This is actually very similar to an earlier discussion I had in Batoto with a person who said Dice could be used for a person to become intelligent enough to do something amazing, like curing cancer. (Being a Biologist, I cannot help smirking at the notion of "curing cancer"… but I digress.)

Let's see how this would play out. The sequence of events is more or less like this:

i. X gives Dongtae a Quest. To protect Dongtae's morality, let's say the quest is pernicious (they almost always are, to a certain extent), but Dongtae cannot see the evil. Let's say it is something seemingly innocent but which X knows will harm someone. Like asking Dongtae to steal Byungchul's notes (which is what got him brutally bullied afterwards).

ii. Dongtae fulfills the Quest. His consciousness is clear, because he cannot see the hidden evil, otherwise he would have refused it. X gives him Dice and Dongtae uses them to increase his intelligence.

iii. Rinse and repeat (i) and (ii) until Dongtae is clever enough to cure cancer.

Do you see what the problem is? Sure, Dongtae or anyone can use Dice to do good, but said good is always achieved after an evil is caused at the moment the quest is fulfilled. And what's worse, greater rewards come with more horrible quests.

To be honest, I exaggerate the evil of some quests. Many of them are not evil, and protecting Eunju was definitely a virtuous quest. But that's not the general trend. The thing X feeds in most people are their basest desires.

What I am trying to say is that Dice - and here I disagree with you - are a tool of X's before they are of the Dicers' themselves. They are the tool X uses to lure them in. Without them, no one would have a reason to fulfill the Quests.

Only after the mischief is done can they be used for good. Ergo, for every good something bad has to be achieved.

That's the moral problem. What using Dice means is that before you can do good, you have to do evil (even if you don't know that). And that's what Eunju opposed when she first was told what Dice were. Those were the words of Gilma in chapter 23: "to get these Dice, people are hurting each other and treat others like trash". Only then did Eunju voice her "if that is the case, I think these things shouldn't exist." Clearly, she was linking Dice not with their potential for good, which is ex post facto and uncertain, but with the virtual certainty that evil is accomplished in the process of procuring them… regardless of how well-intentioned people are.

I won't even discuss here the often overlooked fact that doing evil things changes one's mindset. For that, I refer you to a discussion of the matter here. (I comment as Splicer.)

I don't think she will have a personal role in bringing down X. You are probably right, only a Dicer who can face off against him for the S-Rank and defeat him at his own game can do that.

But Dongtae won't do it as long as he fails to understand that Dice cannot be used for good while X controls their distribution. Eunju never issued a blanket condemnation of Dice, she conditioned (every time, in the discussion with Gilma and in the rooftop speech in the Long Day Arc) her condemnation to the way they are obtained.

This story, in my opinion, is about Dongtae arriving at the conclusion Eunju reached in chapter 23. But let's talk a little about Eunju's most controversial assertion, that earned her the most hatred from some readers. The one you consider "stupid".

In chapter 19, she was dismissing the notion of changing oneself. She believes in "working hard with what one is given". In a sense, this is exactly Taebin's, a veteran Dicer's, conclusion in chapter 67, isn't it? Dice or no Dice, the world won't change. There will be always people harming each other, having powers to solve some problems will result in other problems, etc.. So in this matter I am with Eunju, and it may be a philosophical difference between you and me: I do believe that working hard is more important. Because the virtue is in the working. It doesn't matter if you have an ESP power or not, but what you do with that power. Intelligence alone won't allow one to "cure cancer". Having the motivation to cure cancer is probably a safer route.

And because Dice powers come cheap, most Dicers in the story are doing exactly what with their powers? What is constructive in what they are doing? Daewoong used Cloaking to shoplift. Gilma tried to use Psychokinesis to killl. Most of the time, Dicers are using their powers - because they failed to work hard to obtain them - not as a precious achievement to be used wisely but as a tool to… obtain more power. Even Dongtae hasn't used his powers to achieve much.

It's true that just ignoring evil won't stop it. However, understanding what the evil is is the first step to do that, and Dongtae has to stop thinking he can remain personally virtuous and benefit from Dice while X is in control. In contrast to Eunju, he fails to see the bigger picture.

The role of Eunju in the story, in my view, is making Dongtae realise that.

And I am not talking about her lecturing him on the matter. But I wouldn't be surprised if Eunju's words on chapters 19, 23 and 34 spring to his mind when his contradictions come home to roost.

Even if her direct role is of a domino, something to make Dongtae snap, Eunju sets the moral tone of the story. She has reached all the right conclusions, and Dongtae's duty as hero is to catch up. Her character is a "Mary Sue" because this is a moral tale: she is the way the author says, "This is what I think is right." Beatrice in Dante's Divine Comedy and Gretchen in Faust play the exact same role: the role of being at the endpoint of the journey the hero sets out on. Eunju begins where Dongtae, I hope, will end. She is a finished product, someone who has attained enlightenment, and he is someone who needs to go a long way yet. That's why I like her, because she gives substance to the main argument. Without her, this story would lack a sense of direction, or it would all have to come from Dongtae's inner monologue… which would make it a little far-fetched, in my view.

Is it possible that Dongtae will arrive at a better solution than Eunju? A world where people actually benefit from Dice and work hard with their abilities, without having to harm people to obtain them?

Perhaps. Then again, Dice are power in pure state… and power corrupts. Lord Acton tends to have the final laugh.

One final word: if back in chapter five, Dongtae had Eunju's fortitude of mind, none of this would have happened. Rejecting evil in the right moment does make a difference. Taebin is on to something in chapter 22: in a sense, this is all Dongtae's fault. Good intentions do pave the road to hell if they are not backed up by good sense. True, Dongtae is human and fallible, but so far he has not moved to set right his own wrongs.

 

[Son-Derling]

i wonder why noone is touching the part that

Spoiler

eunju is represented as the queen in X chess game...i did not analyse yet if she is his queen or the opponents queen in the pictures.

but you really should not discuss her role without touching that topic

 

[kendama]

i wonder why noone is touching the part that

Spoiler

eunju is represented as the queen in X chess game...i did not analyse yet if she is his queen or the opponents queen in the pictures.

but you really should not discuss her role without touching that topic

The reason we don't discuss this topic is because

Spoiler

she appears as the White Queen in chapter 77…

and thus until we or someone else releases it in English, it is spoiler material.

Damn you, Son-Derling, I wanted to save the surprise a little longer!

 

[Son-Derling]

ups....i did not say a word! XD

 

[kendama]

Now, there you are, Son-Derling, Eunju as the White Queen in X's chess as of chapter 77, just released!

We can discuss it as much as we want, but there isn't much to say. My suspicion that X sets much more store by her than many readers want to admit is confirmed. And yet, he considers her the White Queen because of her potential, and not because of her current behaviour. That pops my balloon a little, because I don't want her to yield, but let's see how this develops.

By the way, in this chapter X has risen considerably in my villainy scale. He is now right up with Johan and Rachel in my all-time best gallery. His tactics to win over Eunju are just beautiful, the way how he distorts her morals and puts words in her mouth… he makes her look as someone who would kill the existing Dicers or worse. Of course, she never had an intention of doing such a thing. Also, the casual, flattery, the specious promise of her becoming the strongest Dicer, all coupled with mild mockery… X is the Devil, man!

And this is her greatest trial yet. It will test my interpretation: does she really understand, as I have insisted she does, that the problem with Dice are X and the Quests? That even if Dice themselves represent corrupting power and go against her "work hard" doctrine (with which I completely agree), that is not a reason to erase Dicers from existence? I can't wait to find out. If she yields, then everything I said about her is wrong and she is no better than Dongtae (well, stilll a little better, but she certainly won't be the moral cornerstone of this series anymore). Unless of course, as some readers think she should, she becomes one but can still make the distinction and sets out specifically to defeat X. In that case, she will conform to Nietzsche's "monster hunter" metaphor: she will stare into the abyss and live with the possibility of becoming a monster herself. She will actually rise even further in my estimation, and perhaps even gather some sympathy from readers.

As for Dongtae, I want to find out his reasons for not wanting to have any involvement. If he is just washing his hands off the matter, then I am really pissed off at him. Granted, as a Time Pauser, he has nothing to fear from Mooyoung because his skill is not needed for him to challenge X again. For now, I want to believe he has misinterpreted Taebin and thinks he means fighting other Dicers. Personally, I believe Taebin wants Dongtae's cooperation to make a united front against Mooyoung (in spite of what he said earlier about its being impossible for A-Rankers to become allies). Refusing to join is just avoiding the problem, burying his head in the sand. If that's the case here, for those who say Eunju's moral rectitude boils down to the same thing Dongtae will turn out to be a great disappointment.

I wonder why Mio is sulking at home…

Well, great chapter as always, can't wait for the next!

(By the way, for those who share a sadistic vein with me, it has been a joy to watch Eunju-haters cringe at this chapter over at Dicescans…)

 

[Impossibility]

This is somewhat expected. We're being presented with Eunju as having some potential to play a great role...and yet it requires her to play X's game, which has always been the sticking point. Dongtae seems to be casually dismissing Taebin's plans, which seems a bit silly after what he's witnessed. I'm hopeful he has some plans of his own.

 

[Son-Derling]

now i wait for the translation of the exclamation mark bubble in chapter 79.....nothing interesting happening until then ^^

 

[kendama]

One question that occurred to me.

The name of this arc is "Icarus". But who is the character that is trying to reach the sun with wax wings?

Mooyoung, who keeps trying to defeat X by using power given to hiim by X himself?

Eunju, who wants to defeat X but doesn't have the power to do it?

Mio, who tries to compensate for her insecurities by improving her looks and putting on a brave face?

These are three who have had a behaviour at odds with their own ambitions. Or maybe the title is a more encompassing descriptor for all characters and Dicership itself.

 

[Son-Derling]

i think chapter 77 shows who is flying towards the sun like icarus.....of course there could be a (or even 2) new icarus at the end of the current dice round

 

[syx]

This is somewhat expected. We're being presented with Eunju as having some potential to play a great role...and yet it requires her to play X's game, which has always been the sticking point. Dongtae seems to be casually dismissing Taebin's plans, which seems a bit silly after what he's witnessed. I'm hopeful he has some plans of his own.

Pretty much this. Eunju's threat level only rises immensely, if she becomes a Dicer.
I can't wait to see how Eunju will decide. There is no right choice here in my opinion.

Dongtae was a complete disappointment in this chapter. It's not a problem to refuse Taebin's offer, even though the plan sounded reasonable, but standing on the sidelines feels wrong, especially for the main character. We need some insight of his thoughts regarding the whole messed up situation.

 

[kendama]

Well, chapter 78 didn't advance the plot much, other than letting us see just how wicked Miju is.

And it seems Dongtae does have a plan. I'm glad to hear that. Let's hope it's not as stupid as his idea of making a guild, because we all know how that ended. I didn't fail to notice that grabbing the opponent by the nape seems to be a general strategy of Time Pausers. He is undeniably the most powerful Dicer after Mooyoung. Taebin tries hard, but Time Pausers do seem to be invincible.

As for Eunju, she hasn't made up her mind yet and I can see X is trying hard. So let me address what Syx said above:

"There is no right choice here in my opinion."

I don't think that is the case.

The reason is simple. The syllogism is more or less like this:

i. Refusal to use Dice wasn't wrong when Eunju first learned about them.

ii. Nothing has changed ever since. All the actors and conditions remain in place. It's not morally less right or wrong to refuse Dice right now than it was earlier.

iii. Ergo, it's not wrong to reject X's advances.

Situations in which there is no right option can only be those where the agent has painted themselves into a corner. If one makes a wrong option at a certain point, they may reach a situation where no choice is good as a consequence. But one cannot reach this kind of conundrum by no fault of their own - if you have made morally correct choices at a certain point, at the very least you will be in the right if you stick to them from that point on.

Since this situation was not Eunju's fault, X is trying to lure her into a trap, saying that if she wants to do something good, she needs to become a Dicer. He is trying to say that she needs to stain her hands with blood if she is to accomplish some good.

It's Nietszche's Monster Hunter Allegory all over again, and I hope Eunju knows that.

But it is a false dilemma. Eunju doesn't have a duty to save Dicers or the world. If she decides to do it, it will be her choice, but she is not wrong for not wanting to dance to X's tune. Much as it may hurt her to watch, Dicers still have made their choices and there is no moral requirement for Eunju to stoop to their level. She already does quite a lot by trying to appeal to their senses or putting herself between them.

Some may argue that knowing how pernicious Dice are is enough to make it a duty to stop X, and that inaction is not an option. "Being neutral is choosing the side of the oppressor." I agree, but Eunju does not have the power to oppose X. We can argue that becoming a Dicer with the goal of bringing him down is the same as infiltrating the Mafia to get evidence to bring the boss to court. But the analogy is imperfect, because this is not an infiltration: X knows Eunju's intentions, he will have all sorts of options to bring her down whenever he wants. No matter how we look at it, this situation is not Eunju's business. She can stop at any point where going further would conflict with her principles, and no one can blame her for that.

(I'd add that if she chose to become a Dicer, her motivation would be orders of magnitude more noble than Dongtae's, who did it inadvertently; or Taebin's, who did it for his own benefit.)

The real question, in my opinion, is whether she can still become a Dicer and remain virtuous. My opinion is that this may be possible, but we lack the elements to assess that. Dongtae, Taebin and Mio have, to a certain extent, retained their morality, but they have not been really submitted to a real challenge. (No, not even Taebin was brought to the limit.)

For one thing, we don't even know if X is telling the whole truth about the Final Die. And can we be sure that Eunju WILL become the strongest Dicer? We only have X's word for it!

In my opinion, X fully knows Dicership will spell the end of Eunju. He hopes he will be able to corrupt her. I hope she will refuse it. Besides, the one to defeat X must be Dongtae, not her. At most, as a Beatrice figure, she can show him the way.