Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk - Part 1

[Kaiten]

Excuse me?

This disturbs me a lot because this is somewhat wrongdoing towards Toriko. Toriko is far from being a tournament manga. I'd consider other shounen with their certain type of fights more as a tournament manga in contrast to Toriko. I read almost - if not all - battle shounen of WSJ and I can say that this word is more on its place in the description of Reborn and Medaka Box

For the rest, I totally agree with your post

Tournament is not really a pejorative, just a genre structure. Like One Piece and Hunter x Hunter, Toriko is basically structured like an RPG. Each arc is a "stage" of the game with a goal that needs to be completed to clear the "stage". In Toriko that generally means securing an ingredient, though there can be other goals depending on the plot of the arc. Each stage is more difficult to clear, and each reveals more details of the world and plot. In the case of One Piece that generally means clearing Pirates or some substitute (marines, CP9, Shichibukai) off an island. Pretty much every Jump action manga follows a video game structure, some like Toriko follow an RPG structure. Others are set up like old platform games. Bleach is ultimately a lot like Metroid or Mega Man; the action proceeds from point A to point B with no ability to turn around, while the characters fight minor enemies and obstacles on the way to a level boss. Each level is increasingly harder with bosses increasing in strength and new "weapons" (or powers) needed to clear higher levels. Pretty much every Jump action series since Dragonball Z and Dragon Quest have followed one of those two structures.

 

[OPN]

well i dont read all jump series so im only going to rank the ones im currently reading
1. naruto since most of the main points have already been said i dont need to say much more but considering bandai said that storm three wont come out until naruto is finished and their working with kishimoto that says that it should end sometime this year and no i dont have a link
2.toriko okay before ANYONE starts talknig back let me first say in the current chapters their looknig for the ultimate dish god i suspect once toriko gets that the series will probably end since i think he would while looknig for god finds his other meals for his full course
3. bakuman im not sure about this since bakuman could possibly replace naruto once it ends since toriko looks to have replaced bleach and it does look like its about to end however i suspect quite a few chapters since ezzuma will get the most populer manga and cancell pcp due to it decreasing more and more and he knows it will be axed sooner or later then takagi and mashiro come up with a new manga and it soons becomes the most populer and gets a anime but thats just speculation
4. bleach i dont see bleach lasting that long since its ranknigs have fallen and it only sells 5k now so it could be axed if kubo doesnt get his act together
5.reborn i agree with divine/jet reborn may be far from over since there are alot of things to settle like the arcobeleno issue and the simon tri ne set if there is one
6.gintama this one is a iffy since it could be 3rd or here im not too caught up with the gintama manga but i am further then the second anime is so that counts so i guess it will have a giant war and possibly take a normal length of a shonen arc since its normal arc are only 9 chapters or so and will probably be about gin and them trying to free the humans from the amanto after that war with takasugi
7. beelzebub i can easily see this replacing naruto in the big three and it has alot of stuff it can do with its plot
8. medaka box now the only thing i can say is that medaka box is known to break shonen cliches so i fully expect it to continue on with medaka when she goes to college since no shonen (that i know of) that has college so it would break the ultimate cliche that they havent broke and it would be the ultimate troll by nisiosin
thats about all but those are just my two cents.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

1. Mago: Mago reminds me of Mx0 or Muhyo. It sells pretty well but never seemed to find it's place on the
   
   Gintama gets an N/A. It's a consistently popular series, has shown no signs of losing any popularity, and is generally recognized as one of the great recent comedy manga. The plot does not ever need to be resolved, like KochiKame it is episodic and built to go on as long as desired. If Sorachi wants to go down that road, Gintama can last forever. If not, it could end this year. Gintama will last as long as Sorachi wants it to, and that is impossible to predict.

1. 
   
   I have to disagree with this. Sorachi's got a 'method to his madness', and although he's overshot his earlier estimate of 30 volumes, I still think Gintama could end within a year or two. Unlike something like Kochi-kame, or even Sket Dance, Gintama's got a super villain of sorts and as the most recent anime episode has shown, he's on his way to the ultimate battle of ultimate destiny. Sorachi doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to stretch things AFTER Takasugi hits earth, although he sort of is now. Takasugi is the final plot point that Gintama has, and in his own strange way, Sorachi has set up the final battle through some of the serious arcs. Gintama is a series that relies on one off chapters, but unlike other gag manga that pretty much have nothing outside of being gag manga, Gin has villains and serious arcs, which -to me, is the reason why it's managed to become so popular. I only think Sorachi over shot his estimate because Yoshiwara ended up running a bit longer than he would have liked....going a full 18 chapters, unlike his other serious arcs that run to be about 8-10 chapters. I could go into this whole spiel about how Sorachi didn't mean for it to go that long, but that's beside the point. Japanese fans have also started to complain that he's losing his touch, and want to know what's going to happen now that the villains of the series are headed to earth. Now Sorachi never has been one to listen to his fans, but Shuiesha does, which could lead to a disconnect somewhere along the line. Sadly Sket did it right by not introducing any overarching story elements, so fans know full well not to expect anything ongoing. Sket in my opinion is the one that could reasonably go on forever, moreso than Gintama since once Takasugi is defeated, I don't really see what point there would be to stretch the series any longer. Besides Sorachi himself has noted that he would like to go on to a more action packed series once Gintama is complete and he did outline a plan of arcs he wanted to do throughout Gintama, all of which (with this weeks chapter) have been done. Kagura's brother arc? Check. Ninja arc? Check, Otose arc? Check. Sakamoto arc? check. There's nothing to do now but to bring on the Takasugi so I'd give the series maybe a year, two max.
   
   As for the others...
   
   One piece is the series that gets an N/A for me. Oda's got no where to go but up at this point....I don't think you can put the words One piece and cancellation in the same sentence at this point either. As long as Luffy's got a destination, we're going to be there with him.
   
   I strongly dislike Naruto, and don't read it.
   
   Bleach is up in the air too. Not as powerful as OP or Naruto for that matter....unless sales tank real badly, even if it ends up in a Jaguar position, they'll keep it in the mag. Now when the tanks fall under Reborn or Gintama numbers, then we can talk.
   
   I don't read Bakuman either, so I can't comment.
   
   I read Reborn off and on, and I agree with those who say there are quite a bit of things unresolved in the series. If it doesn't get another anime soon however, I think it may end up getting cancelled with all the yo-yoing it's doing. The sales are still strong, but with the way the story is going, it's a matter if Japanese fans will keep supporting it. If i were an optimist (which I'm not), I'd say 3 years. The true pessimist in me says 1 and a half, two.
   
   I just started reading Medaka, seems like it's the type that could end whenever the artists deem it to. It's got a popular name behind it, and a future anime drawn by a company with a fuckton of prestige. I'd say probably 2 years if the anime takes off.
   
   Just started reading Toriko too. It's a throwback to the old days of Jump to be sure. I think that's one reason it's managed to hang in there and thrive this long, since it's demographic like OP can be applied to any person. The old fogies that remember when buff protagonists roamed the land of Jump, and the little kids who like the adventure and brief spats of comedy. The anime ranks in the top ten weekly as well, so I'd say Toriko has a long long future ahead of itself unless something horribly wrong happens. Storywise, like Medaka it could go as long as the author feels like it should.
   
   Don't read Mago, no comment.
   
   Beelze is an interesting one. Like Kaiten said, it's not jump like at all, but I couldn't see this coming out of Mag or Sunday. If Sorachi were to do a delinquent manga, I'd imagine it being just like this. The anime seems to be doing okay, and manga sales are good too. Tamura is also meandering with the plot....so he doesn't seem to be concerned with speeding through to any sort of final battle. Unfortunately I don't see Beelze being around for any sort of long haul, since if the anime should end I'm not entierly sure the manga could continue to support itself. The anime is skipping things which seems to support an original ending in maybe a year or so, so I'd assume Beelze could keep it moving for maybe a year after that. Thinking positively though, I'd say 2-3 more years for Beelze....maybe 4.
   
   Sket is pretty amazing. It's the definition of an underdog. It's riding high now though, the anime is doing well and the manga's sales are rising slowly, but surely. Like I said before, I think it could pull a kochi-kame and continue endlessly since it doesn't really have an overarching plot. I don't remember if the characters age or whatnot, but if they don't, Shinohara has a series that could literally last forever. If they do, I suppose he'd want to end it before the characters leave high school. Sure Sket won't be a huge success or anything, but it has enough staying power by now to hang in the magazine until Shinohara is ready to call it quits, and from the looks of things that won't be for a bit.
   
   Sorry for rambling. :-P I normally don't answer these things but I figured I'd be social for once.
   
   

   Tournament is not really a pejorative, just a genre structure. Like One Piece and Hunter x Hunter, Toriko is basically structured like an RPG. Each arc is a "stage" of the game with a goal that needs to be completed to clear the "stage". In Toriko that generally means securing an ingredient, though there can be other goals depending on the plot of the arc. Each stage is more difficult to clear, and each reveals more details of the world and plot. In the case of One Piece that generally means clearing Pirates or some substitute (marines, CP9, Shichibukai) off an island. Pretty much every Jump action manga follows a video game structure, some like Toriko follow an RPG structure. Others are set up like old platform games. Bleach is ultimately a lot like Metroid or Mega Man; the action proceeds from point A to point B with no ability to turn around, while the characters fight minor enemies and obstacles on the way to a level boss. Each level is increasingly harder with bosses increasing in strength and new "weapons" (or powers) needed to clear higher levels. Pretty much every Jump action series since Dragonball Z and Dragon Quest have followed one of those two structures.

   BEST DESCRIPTION OF SHOUNEN MANGA EVAR. If Kaiten were to write a book or series of essays on Shounen manga, I would so buy and read them.

 

[Kaiten]

I think One Piece is going to lose a good amount of fans and sales over the next year or two. A lot of new fans joined on because of Strong World and the Marineford arc, and I think a lot of them will drop off again when they realize all of One Piece isn't going to be like the war arc when reading weekly.

Even before it's rise in popularity the last few years, One Piece was already the most popular manga by a wide margin. Sales actually began rising during the Sabaody arc, not the war. The war just continued and built on the momentum. The latest volume, sixty-two, is the first post-time skip and has already sold almost three million copies, faster to that number than any of the war volumes. There is no reason to believe the end of the war will witness a decline back to pre-Sabaody levels of popularity.

I doubt the end of Naruto will really effect volume sales. It might effect TOC position, but One Piece is not auto-number one anyway.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

I have to disagree with this. Sorachi's got a 'method to his madness', and although he's overshot his earlier estimate of 30 volumes, I still think Gintama could end within a year or two.

To me the key is that he could end it in a year or two. He could, but he can also keep writing without any catastrophic effects on the quality.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

To me the key is that he could end it in a year or two. He could, but he can also keep writing without any catastrophic effects on the quality.

Hmm...I agree and disagree with that. I won't go as far as saying that Gintama's become terrible lately, but it is obvious that the guy is running low on ideas. The recent arc that just concluded IS Sorachi at his best though, so I agree that he could keep it going if he focuses more on comedy arcs and not so much one off stories. Though I get what you mean, Gintama COULD continue indefinitely, but as for it actually happening, I don't think so.

 

[ZayCon]

1. Mago
I don't read it, but I put it at first, because of TOC results and things I've heard here on MH.
2. Reborn!
Starting to get really boring. Way to much cliches.
3. Medaka Box
Don't read it, but just think so.
4. Bakuman
Don't think they're gonna drag it too much longer now.
5. Naruto
Heading for an ending, but with the current pacing it'll take some fucking time.
6. Sket Dance
Don't read this either.
7. Gintama
Don't know why though.
8. Beelzebub
It'll probably stick for a long time though.
9. Bleach
The ending of Bleach is probably aroung 8-10 years from now. Don't thin it'll get canned.
10. Toriko
There's and limit for what he can do with it.
11. One Piece
Could last forever (hopefully!)

 

[Asgaroth]

Like I said before, I think it could pull a kochi-kame and continue endlessly since it doesn't really have an overarching plot.

Spoiler: gintama spoilers

maybe there isn't an overall plot, but the character are aging. his brother is now the student council president, with the third years gone away. i'm not sure but all of them should be now in the third year of highschool. if he doesn't want to change the setting to university, he will end it within the next 2 years. there is no way he can run this series 10 years with them being in the 3 year, as the first 2 years only lasted what, 120 chapter? he could do it, but that wouldn't be good. he will surely run out of ideas befor that and end it himself.

 

[Zeromcd]

Jump Issue 32 Information

Lead CP: Bleach
Cover: Bakuman
CP: Golden Future Cup Entry #1 Takamagahara (47pages), Kagami no Kuni (25pages), Sket Dance
Extra Pages: ST&RS (23 pages)

 

[WSaint]

Golden Age of Jump

I need help here, I've been looking around the internet to find out more about this Golden Age of Jump, but the information I could find was really limited. We all know that during the GAJ, Dragon Ball, Slam Dunk and Rurouni Kenshin were the Shounen hot shots and pretty much represented the world of manga. What I was thinking, was that it's really unlikely that three titles were enough to help manga gain such a huge magnitude of popularity and wanted the MH community to give me a hand on finding titles that could more or less fill in the missing spots.

People seem to consider both american and japanese GAJ as similar phenomenons, but i would like to state that they are completely different. What I am searching for is the Japanese GAJ, the one that took place during the 1980's to the early 1990's, and not the one that occured on 2003 with the birth of the US Shounen Jump

If I placed this post in the wrong place, I would like to apologize to the moderators before hand and please bear in mind that this is my first post in five years.

Pokemon doesn't count

 

[Sayaendo]

Tournament is not really a pejorative, just a genre structure. Like One Piece and Hunter x Hunter, Toriko is basically structured like an RPG. Each arc is a "stage" of the game with a goal that needs to be completed to clear the "stage". In Toriko that generally means securing an ingredient, though there can be other goals depending on the plot of the arc. Each stage is more difficult to clear, and each reveals more details of the world and plot. In the case of One Piece that generally means clearing Pirates or some substitute (marines, CP9, Shichibukai) off an island. Pretty much every Jump action manga follows a video game structure, some like Toriko follow an RPG structure. Others are set up like old platform games. Bleach is ultimately a lot like Metroid or Mega Man; the action proceeds from point A to point B with no ability to turn around, while the characters fight minor enemies and obstacles on the way to a level boss. Each level is increasingly harder with bosses increasing in strength and new "weapons" (or powers) needed to clear higher levels. Pretty much every Jump action series since Dragonball Z and Dragon Quest have followed one of those two structures.

In general the most popular fiction stories you can find will be very similar to video games in structure. From Harry Potter to Lord of the Rings, to, heck, ancient legends like King Arthur. You can think about it like this: video games are the purest form of a story because it's a setting with a blank slate MC, and every other story is a subsidiary of this because it's simply a setting where someone else created the main character. That's why I think the stories that follow the video game structure the best are often very popular.
Also note that the most popular characters are always the ones that bring the best out of the setting (similar to how a main character in a video game would, because as a player you explore the setting, not your inner emotions or drama). See Luffy, the Naruto-Sasuke combo (which by itself could explore the entire Naruto setting), Eiji (which isn't even the main character), etc.

I could talk about this for days (such a good subject and no one talks about it) but it's not really related to Jump so I'll leave it there.

 

[Josl]

Re: Golden Age of Jump

I need help here, I've been looking around the internet to find out more about this Golden Age of Jump, but the information I could find was really limited. We all know that during the GAJ, Dragon Ball, Slam Dunk and Rurouni Kenshin were the Shounen hot shots and pretty much represented the world of manga. What I was thinking, was that it's really unlikely that three titles were enough to help manga gain such a huge magnitude of popularity and wanted the MH community to give me a hand on finding titles that could more or less fill in the missing spots.

People seem to consider both american and japanese GAJ as similar phenomenons, but i would like to state that they are completely different. What I am searching for is the Japanese GAJ, the one that took place during the 1980's to the early 1990's, and not the one that occured on 2003 with the birth of the US Shounen Jump

If I placed this post in the wrong place, I would like to apologize to the moderators before hand and please bear in mind that this is my first post in five years.

Pokemon doesn't count

Here are the TOC results for 1981-2000.

http://imageshack.us/f/705/145464jumprank80.gif
http://imageshack.us/f/842/763257jumprank90.gif

Hope it helps you

 

[saladesu]

Re: Golden Age of Jump

From Josl's post, it's obvious that some of the other big series were Dr Slump, Kinnikuman, Hokuto no Ken and Captain Tsubasa. Other than that I think the state of the economy had a big role to play in causing such a great boom in the manga industry back then.

The Japanese economy was doing particularly well in the 1980s, but came crashing down in early 1990s. If you notice that also coincides with the Golden Age. At the height of the Japanese economy, people could afford to buy Shounen Jump and the tankoubons, but when the economy declined and people lost their jobs, manga was probably the least of their concerns.

Circulation for Jump will probably never reach what it was during the Golden Age, ever again. Even if it's got One Piece, which is said to be the best-selling series of all time, and many other "big" series like Naruto, Hunter x Hunter etc, we now have Edited Mangas and raws available online. If you can get the whole thing for free online, why bother buying the original? (I'm not saying I personally think this way, as if I really like the manga I would buy it)

 

[perroloco]

Re: Golden Age of Jump

I would consider Golden Age of Jump the time Akira Toriyama had long-running series in WSJ, so from 1980 to 1995?
Consider this facts:
-Good economy.
-Dr. Slump is the JUMP property with the best TV ratings, the other are Mazinger and Dokonjo Gaeru both from the 70s then Dragon Ball then Yu Yu Hakusho.
-There were more children in Japan some years ago, its obvious sales for a young audience magazine will fall.

Anyway Dragon Ball is a key series to the Golden Age of Jump, that's the one thing clear for me, other important mangas were Yu Yu Hakusho and SLAM DUNK, all of them ended almost at the same time provoking sales to fall, Rurouni Kenshin was one of the few popular manga running in WSJ when the sales were falling, Shonen Magazine tried to "steal" some of the readers that WSJ was losing thus it tried to imitate Rurouni Kenshin (A samurai manga) and thus Samurai Deeper Kyo started on Magazine, along with other interesting stories such as Love Hina and GTO Magazine had a spot of time where it had more sales than WSJ, with the years WSJ recovered (Or stabilized) its circulation because of new and popular series like ONE PIECE, Naruto, BLEACH, etc.

Here.

 

[RocketWobbuffet]

Re: Golden Age of Jump

Here are the TOC results for 1981-2000.

http://imageshack.us/f/705/145464jumprank80.gif
http://imageshack.us/f/842/763257jumprank90.gif

Hope it helps you

I'm somewhat surprised that Wild Half, Video Girl Ai and JoJo are not on these lists.

 

[Kaiten]

Re: Golden Age of Jump

Rurouni would be the most popular series of Jump's "dark age", after Dragonball ended. The golden age would be more like the late 80's through mid-90's. Dragonball Z, Dragonquest, JoJo's, Rokudenashi Blues , YuYu, St. Seiya, and Slam Dunk were some of the better known series of the era. There is no official start and end, but it can be argued that the period from about 1988-1995 was the commercial height of Jump and the period when the modern style of the magazine began. The exaggerated muscles and violence of Fist of the North Star and City Hunter belonged to another era. Both were winding down in the late 80's, as more fantasy oriented fare was beginning. Captain Tsubasa and Dr. Slump were also from an earlier era, more innocent, before the more violent series of the mid 80's (City Hunter, Fist of the North Star, etc.) The original Captain Tsubasa ended in 1988, sat out the Dragonball Z era, resuming right before the dark ages began in 1994.

Here is a list of every manga serialized in Weekly Jump: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_series_run_in_Weekly_Shōnen_Jump

Merged With the Weekly Jump Thread

 

[Mr. Prince]

The question as to when exactly the Golden Age started is quite interesting and can't really be answered in just one way. I also did some research with Google.co.jp and clicked through pages like Yahoo answers where there was the exact same question posed, and the answers vary. A lot!

While it's consensus that said Golden Age reached its heyday in the mid 90's with its big three (Dragon Ball, Slam Dunk, YuYu Hakusho), when the mag had a circulation of more than 6.5 million copies a week, it's arguably when this trend started: Quite a number of people name 1977 as the starting point, the time when Ring ni Kakero started.

Being quite the Hokuto fanboy I remember watching a long HnK documentary where they said Hokuto no Ken was the beginning of it all, fending off the so called "Love Comedy Boom", during which Sunday gained more and more ground under the reign of Adachi Mitsuru and Takahashi Rumiko. But of course, this documentary was clearly biased in its whole representation towards HnK. So, it should be taken with a bucket of salt.


Looking at the average numbers of circulation I could definitely see 1977 work. Between '77 and '79 the numbers rose by a whole million, which is incredible.

 

[BlaZin]

ST&RS ch 1 is out

by Clockwork Lies and Muda

It's really good Hopefully the readers agree. I'm gonna hate jump if this gets cancelled anytime soon...

 

[Kaiten]

There really is not a single answer as to what constitutes the beginning of the golden age, I'm sure opinion differs greatly from person to person. My answer was more narrow, to keep the golden age from being cross generational and give pride of place to the series with the greatest continued impact on Jump. But looking at that period from 77-88, as many series can be claimed as all time manga (not just Jump) classics. Not only what has already been mentioned but series like Kinnikuman and Sakigake!! Otoko Juku that come a bit before the transition from Dragonball to Dragonball Z.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

ST&RS is out

by Clockwork Lies and Muda

It's really good Hopefully the readers agree. I'm gonna hate jump if this manga gets cancelled anytime soon...

I actually liked ST&RS a lot too. The characters are really interesting and likable, the premise is promising too. I mentioned in the ST&RS thread, but there is a lot of room for the series to evolve. The author could incorporate school life, sci-fi, romance, and action without ever deviating from the basic plot laid out in chapter one. Right now it is most definitely school life, hopefully the fact that the only other representative of the genre is Sket Dance will help it survive. It won't need to compete with a thousand action manga for votes.

Ikkyuu is really growing on me too. The last two translated chapters were outstanding, hopefully good enough to improve polling. Definitely a series that I hope thrives.

 

[Divinenega]

I read the first chapter of St&rs as well and I also think it has a lot of potential. It really could go in several directions, from a school life series, to an action sci-fi drama(which would work for me since I've missed having that genre in JUMP since Psyren ended), but I;m cool either way. Really hoping this one doesn;t get axed, though if it doesn;t than when next it comes time to chop off a series from the lineup, something big is going down.

 

[MattC302]

I enjoyed ST&RS as well. I am usually hesitant to start new WSJ series because I don't want to put my time into something that could get canceled so easily, but I took a chance and I hope this series does well.