Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2011] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Finestela]

The Nanamine arc may have had a disappointing conclusion

Not for the Kosugi x Nanamine fan girls, it's not!

 

[Galactic Tomahawk]

Kosugi got to be a total badass so I'm cool with it

 

[97gsxminus1bolt]

And yeah, Bleach is pretty low ranked this week, isn't it?
I suppose even if it's got that sort of huge fanbase it's not guaranteed to get high TOC ranks.

I love bleach but kubo has been going too slowly on this arc. Then he states he wants to go another 10 years? Yea the fans got pissed. But at least it woke him up since the last two chapters seem to be going full throttle.

 

[kewl0210]

Well, with Bleach, he's basically saying he "doesn't have an ending in mind" and he "wants to keep doing more long arcs and bring in new things".

It kind of reminds be of Yuu Yuu Hakusho in the way its arcs are setup. How they're disconnected for the most part and introduce a lot of new things. Of course, YYH is waaaaay way shorter. And a lot better. If there's one thing Togashi doesn't do, it's draw stuff out forever. Though arcs can be long, battles or any other single scenario never last more than a couple chapters with him.

 

[R4n]

You may have found it boring, but not everyone did Besides, the start of the Nanamine arc was interesting at least imo. I had very very high hopes for the arc at that point and so did many on MH. The current TOC ranks echo that. That's why I'm interested to see how it will rank from here on out, and if the opinions of the Japanese voters jive with ours (that the Nanamine arc eventually turned out to be largely a disappointment).

O really? i didn't read MH discussion thread about it so i don't know.
But somewhere in internetland the conclusion of the arc got a standing ovation. No, not only from Nanamine x Kosugi fans. People just love Kosugi being badass (finally).

Not for the Kosugi x Nanamine fan girls, it's not!

EXACTLY.
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regarding the ToC: hooray!! crash MORE, khr >:'D

 

[come come paradise]

Well, with Bleach, he's basically saying he "doesn't have an ending in mind" and he "wants to keep doing more long arcs and bring in new things".

Exactly, it kind of seems he's regarding writing Bleach every week as a job. And he's just trying not to fall out of employment. As for the series, he's not trying to get it anywhere.

To be fair with him, Shueisha's most likely been pressuring him to do so. It's obvious he's long since lost all of his inspiration. The days where he himself said "Sorry, I think Bleach #1's fan is me!" are kinda far. And in tank sales at least, Bleach is still a gold mine that no new series are likely to be able to reach in the near future.


As for the ToC I'm still disappointed Yamamoto's return did not manage to get Reborn ranked higher for these chapters were full of win for me, but oh well xD

 

[Asgaroth]

Exactly, it kind of seems he's regarding writing Bleach every week as a job. And he's just trying not to fall out of employment. As for the series, he's not trying to get it anywhere.

why would he? some couple of pages ago someone wrote down how much a mangaka make with a single takobon. bleach doesn't sell as well as one piece, but with his 400+ chapters it must be enough to do nothing anymore! what would they do if he says "fuck off, im not doing it anymore!"?

To be fair with him, Shueisha's most likely been pressuring him to do so. It's obvious he's long since lost all of his inspiration. The days where he himself said "Sorry, I think Bleach #1's fan is me!" are kinda far. And in tank sales at least, Bleach is still a gold mine that no new series are likely to be able to reach in the near future.

i don't really understand how he can even such a big thing drawn as a little story. i mean he must know all the backgrounds of his characters and their thinking to let them act in character and even do plot twist. i can't think that most of his ideas (from the middle part on) were just concidence and he thinks only 1 week ahead. (same goes to all mangaka)

it wuld be fascinating to hear of them what they really thought ahead at the beginning. Like One Piece Fishman Arc with arlong, did he really know that he would return and tell about his intentions and background? personally i don't think so.

 

[come come paradise]

why would he? some couple of pages ago someone wrote down how much a mangaka make with a single takobon. bleach doesn't sell as well as one piece, but with his 400+ chapters it must be enough to do nothing anymore! what would they do if he says "fuck off, im not doing it anymore!"?

Ah, I didn't mean that he did it for the money, he must have plenty of it already. Just that, whatever his reason for continuing Bleach may be, it's not out of artistic desire, commitment for his series, or even wanting to see it through.
Don't get me wrong, though, I'll forever remain a Kubo fan xD


As for planning ahead, I'm not sure it's that big a deal. The quality of what an author writes is more important than whether he had it planned out a couple of years ago (and you need to be really established to believe your series will go on for a couple of years...). People often think the two are related, but I'm not so sure. Anyway, imo most authors have a general idea of what they'll be doing and they add more material as they progress towards that general idea. Whole arcs, in Oda's case xD

 

[97gsxminus1bolt]

Ah, I didn't mean that he did it for the money, he must have plenty of it already. Just that, whatever his reason for continuing Bleach may be, it's not out of artistic desire, commitment for his series, or even wanting to see it through.
Don't get me wrong, though, I'll forever remain a Kubo fan xD


As for planning ahead, I'm not sure it's that big a deal. The quality of what an author writes is more important than whether he had it planned out a couple of years ago (and you need to be really established to believe your series will go on for a couple of years...). People often think the two are related, but I'm not so sure. Anyway, imo most authors have a general idea of what they'll be doing and they add more material as they progress towards that general idea. Whole arcs, in Oda's case xD

I really don't think kubo is doing that bad though. Yes he is going too slowly but in regards to the characters I am sure he has everything plotted out. People might bitch that characters are forgotten but no he will come back to them later in the series thats just the way he writes his stories.

For some reason I doubt oda has anything planned out. Everything he writes screams to me that he pulls it out of his ass. The 2 year time skip tattoo thing, sabo never being mentioned before, the fact we don't know about the next island until right before they head there.

 

[ZayCon]

For some reason I doubt oda has anything planned out. Everything he writes screams to me that he pulls it out of his ass. The 2 year time skip tattoo thing, sabo never being mentioned before, the fact we don't know about the next island until right before they head there.

I don't think Oda plans every little detail, but I think a lot is planned out. Such as haki (first seen in chapter 1 - Shanks), The Sun Pirates comeback (not planned when or how, but I'm quite sure Oda knew he was going to explain things later in manga). I think Oda planned the timeskip some time in advance, because it kind of marks that they're halfway in both grand line and the manga. Sabo is one of the things that I doubt was planned out, and it kind of felt like a filler arc, which is also probably was.

An example of good planning from Oda's side is chapter 620, page 13. Where he compares Sabaody Park and Arlong Park, which is quite alike.

 

[Galactic Tomahawk]

I think Oda said that he has a general framework planned out, but not exactly when each event is gonna happen.

Like Brook was planned from a very early stage, but didn't actually show up until far later than he expected.

 

[Finestela]

Boa Hancock appeared on the cover of WSJ back when HxH was still running normally... :P (Well, scratch that, more like when Togashi started to slack off...)

Yes, Oda puts in elements all over the chapters that might or might not be used some day. You can call him a genius because OP is still running, and he's able to get back to them. However, had OP been canceled at one point, those would be better known as "plot holes".

 

[Josl]

For some reason I doubt oda has anything planned out. Everything he writes screams to me that he pulls it out of his ass..

Are you serious? Like serious, serious?

sabo never being mentioned before,.

Sabo was mentioned when Ace died. When else should he have been mentioned?
Do you remember the Tattoo Ace had? Do you remember the crossed out S? You know for whom the crossed out S stands for???
Yes exactly Sabo. Not only was this said in the Green Data book but can be seen here
Do you remember when Ace was first introduced? Yes Sabo was planned for that long

The 2 year time skip tattoo thing.

The war was planned already 1-2 years before the serialization begun. Therefore was Ace and Whitebeards death. Therefore was the time skip. It was so often mentioned that they were too weak for the new world that it isn’t even funny. The last time by Moria who lost everything there. That was still 2-3 years before the time skip happened. That is a lot of time even when he just decided to do it at that moment what he probably didn’t.
If you don’t understand how the Crew understood the message than you should read this page.
Crossed out 3D for not in 3 Days but in 2Y(2 Years)

the fact we don't know about the next island until right before they head there.

It’s an adventure Manga. You are not supposed to know about the next destination until you arrive there. He has already mentioned a lot of islands, which most of them will be travelled too. Fishman Island being the most prominent example.


There is no denying that Oda is a Master planner. He has planned out his entire story LONG before serialization begun like old sketches proof. In the 1 Month break he took WSJ published a few. I’m too lazy to find them for you but on them you can see the entire East Blue saga planned out, a few islands of the Grand Line and the 3 Islands of the World Government (Impel Down, Marine ford, Enies Lobby). This makes it now what? 15 Years of forward planning? In the green Data book are also some sketches.
I could give you literally 100 examples of what was planned.
Obvious not everything is planned but because he has planned out his entire story out he can add things to make the world and story more complete and complex. One example would be the Supernovas. There was no plan beforehand for them to be there. He designed them in like 3 hours. But because he has planned out most of his story they fit in perfectly and everyone can get a past and important role to play.

I really don't think kubo is doing that bad though. Yes he is going too slowly but in regards to the characters I am sure he has everything plotted out. People might bitch that characters are forgotten but no he will come back to them later in the series thats just the way he writes his stories.

It’s not only about the chracters. That belongs more in the category of very bad character handling than story. But in the story category belongs the following.
I am not someone who has read a lot of Kubo interviews, so some of the thinks I say are more hearsay than actual knowledge so somebody who knows his stuff better than I do correct me please if I’m wrong but I’m 99% sure that I read an interview where he pretty much admitted that he decided that Ichigo would lose his powers like 1-2 chapters before that actually happened.
I don’t know where Hystzen got his information from but I will quote him:

kubo admitted he didnt have Aizen as a villain or even alive but he needed to end the saga with a shock to keep the plot moving forward.

If he is right this makes not 1 but at LEAST 2, not small but MAJOR story elements pretty much pulled out of his ass. Truthfully it is pretty obvious that pretty much nothing is planned. There is no foreshadowing and no consistency.

 

[Riku]

Yes, Oda puts in elements all over the chapters that might or might not be used some day. You can call him a genius because OP is still running, and he's able to get back to them. However, had OP been canceled at one point, those would be better known as "plot holes".

I think you've misundertstood meaning of "plot hole". What you described is just simply unfinished storylines or unused possibilities, unanswered mysteries, open ends. Plot hole means "inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot" as wiki says. So that's something, that simply doesn't make logical sense.

 

[Finestela]

Things that are not explained, but requires explaining, do not, by nature, make sense without the explanation. Thus, the plot hole, should they not be explained before the conclusion of the story.

Also, good job quoting a wiki article that doesn't have a single reference in there.

 

[meeedoooz]

The Nanamine arc may have had a disappointing conclusion, but it was definitely not boring. Especially when compared to Naruto, of all things. Nanamine was a very interesting character, and his philosophy about the internet really hits home for a lot of fans.

what a strange thing to say

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i agree with 97gsxminus1bolt but as they said he doesn't have to be planing every thing, all what matters is people liking it... but sure planing ahead and linking the events affects the quality... that's why NARUTO is different in terms of quality of the story.

 

[Riku]

Things that are not explained, but requires explaining, do not, by nature, make sense without the explanation. Thus, the plot hole, should they not be explained before the conclusion of the story.

Also, good job quoting a wiki article that doesn't have a single reference in there.

No, something that isn't explained, isn't necessarily a plot hole. Even if One Piece had been cancelled before explaining Aces crossed S tattoo or actually introducing Jinbei, those wouldn't be plot holes. Just open ends or unanswered questions. They do not directly affect the storys outcome. In your first post you referenced these kinda things that Oda drops as possible plot holes if the series had ended, which in my defition of plot holes isn't just the case. Plot hole is somethng that doesn't make sense, but affect the storys outcome. For example, if Aces delayed birth would not had been explained, that would be a plot hole, because then considering the timeline it would be impossible, asuming that pregnancy takes 9months in that universe too.

Also, good job pointing that wiki isn't law are necessarily even true. Sorry for not been able to find more liable source in reasonable time.

EDIT: Would you be more happy with tvtropes as source? I just can find definete encyclopedia references online.

Note that a Plot Hole is inherently a contradiction. A Plot element that is merely left unexplained is not a Plot Hole unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

 

[[Cross]]

In your first post you referenced these kinda things that Oda drops as possible plot holes if the series had ended, which in my defition of plot holes isn't just the case. Plot hole is somethng that doesn't make sense, but affect the storys outcome. For example, if Aces delayed birth would not had been explained, that would be a plot hole, because then considering the timeline it would be impossible, asuming that pregnancy takes 9months in that universe too

According to the rules of the one piece universe, anything is essentially possible with explanation. Ace's delayed birth can't be a plot hole because there exists a man who lives in a treasure chest. And zombies. And floating islands. Considering the leaps of logic the series takes, a pregnancy lasting more than 9 months isn't even that inconceivable.

 

[Riku]

According to the rules of the one piece universe, anything is essentially possible with explanation. Ace's delayed birth can't be a plot hole because there exists a man who lives in a treasure chest. And zombies. And floating islands.

Sorry, it's 5AM here. I poorly wrote it, english not my native tongue. I don't meen Aces delayed birth was plot hole (it's fiction and fantasy afterall). I mean without the delayed birth explanation considering Aces given age and time of Rogers execution, it would not have made sense that Ace was Rogers son. That's would have been a plot hole, without the explaoned/mentioned delayed birth. But it wasn't. (Though haters can still argue that it was just a poor attempt to cover a plot hole.) But that is besides the point of my definition of plot hole. And not the greatest example, the first one I just came up with.

 

[Finestela]

Again, try to search for some other non-Wikipedia articles explaining what a plot hole is, instead of being so stubborn about your own assumed set of definition.

Fact is, Oda has a knack of planting subplots everywhere. Some of them are awkward while others can be ignored. However, had the series been canceled before they can be explained/explored, they will, effectively, be plot holes to the overall stories, due to their awkwardness.

If the story ended before Hancock (or the other 3 "powerful rivals" drawn on the WSJ cover that has yet to make an appearance) was introduced, is it not a plot hole then? Who the hell are these guys? Where did they go? So on and so forth.

That, is a plot hole.