Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2015] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[WyldViolet]

With alot of these mangas nearing there end, some manga are going to have to step up and fill that spot. One Piece cant carry Jump by itself

Yes it can.

 

[WyldViolet]

Are you sure Hinomaru Sumo is a big success?

It's wishful thinking with a high probability of it happening.
As long as it keeps the rankings it has until it gets an anime, it won't have any problem staying for several more years.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

They could put Toriko in another time of the day (or moning if possible)... End a successful series to start a successful series is nonsense. Maintain both and earn more money would be the best choice. O.o

Thinks don't work like that though. Putting a series on TV costs money and effort and scheduling.
You have the timeslots. Toei has a fixed number of timeslots in Fuji TV, 2, the big 9 block. Do you think that Fuji TV would just give them another one, right? And to do that they would need to remove something else. Fuji TV is a television channel that only has 6 anime series and where the TV programming manager didn't liked the attention that anime was getting and pushed One Piece from a prime hour to the morning. Do you think they would just simply give another timeslot?

You have investors. Is one thing to change one popular series for another, but asking for another series to be invested is probably a No No situation. This Toei would need to find for other investors and/or convince some of the ones that they already had for Toriko to invest in one more thing.

The endeavor. Toei at the time got 2 other long running anime at TV Tokyo channel(Majin Bone and Marvel Disk Wars) and Sailor Moon Crystal(net), so it makes sense to go for something easier to do like a remastering of Dragon Ball Bu Saga than a full anime like Toriko.

So yes, they changed Toriko for Dragon Ball Kai, given that it was a bigger franchise to put in their already existent timeslot in Fuji TV.

 

[Leoat12]

With alot of these mangas nearing there end, some manga are going to have to step up and fill that spot. One Piece cant carry Jump by itself

Nothing is ending soon as far as know and One Piece can carry Jump by itself, its volumes sells more than the Jump itself.

 

[DestyNova4th]

I think would be better try other sports, but it's just a personal preference, of course. I liked Eyeshield 21 and Cross Manage, for examples, were fresh. A motor racer (maybe futurist sci-fi or classic steampunk!), golf, ice hockey, even swimming (with unavoidable fanservice), I find more interesting than football or baseball.

 

[Greco]

Are you sure Hinomaru Sumo is a big success?

Same here, why BnHA is there as a "Big Success"? I mean, it's doing very well but it neither has gotten the third year of serialization nor has gotten an anime yet. Qualify it as a Big Success is premature. Also, I think World Trigger is more Big Success than Isobee. Ashihara's series got an anime (I believe it gonna survive until the third year mark) meanwhile Isobee is one year in Jump. Don't forget that Isobee had 2 chapters every week.

 

[Lehran]

Same here, why BnHA is there as a "Big Success"? I mean, it's doing very well but it neither has gotten the third year of serialization nor has gotten an anime yet. Qualify it as a Big Success is premature. Also, I think World Trigger is more Big Success than Isobee. Ashihara's series got an anime (I believe it gonna survive until the third year mark) meanwhile Isobee is one year in Jump. Don't forget that Isobee had 2 chapters every week.

As the person who posted it said, it's only a rough basis, the classification he/she used for the Jump series is arbitrary, so if we begin discussing what is a success/quasi-success/etc the discussion is never going to end, because everybody has their own views about that. And that kind of discussion already happened exhaustively in the previous WSJ threads, so I think it's better not to start it one more time.

 

[101nemesis]

Also Bleach 1st movie did basically the same as Toriko 1st movie and it didn't got cancelled because of that and the 2nd movie got better earnings. So if didn't cause Bleach cancellation why would Toriko?

Bleach's 1st movie sold more than 60,000 copies in it's DVD release which is much higher than any Naruto movie sold DVD-wise. So even if Bleach's movie's gross was not that HUGE, it's DVD sales were definitely amazing. Toriko's movie grossed less than 1.5k before it went off the DVD list IIRC.

Also, Bleach's first movie appeared at a time when Bleach as a franchise was still growing and the manga sales were at it's peak. Toriko's movie came at a time when Toriko's manga sales were already declining. So I would assume they put some expectations on that movie to garner more interest. The main problem would be the fact that the anime didn't really boost sales THAT much. I think people were expecting Toriko to explode once the anime started and the children-friendly anime might have been the biggest blow to the franchise.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Bleach's 1st movie sold more than 60,000 copies in it's DVD release which is much higher than any Naruto movie sold DVD-wise. So even if Bleach's movie's gross was not that HUGE, it's DVD sales were definitely amazing. Toriko's movie grossed less than 1.5k before it went off the DVD list IIRC.

Also, Bleach's first movie appeared at a time when Bleach as a franchise was still growing and the manga sales were at it's peak. Toriko's movie came at a time when Toriko's manga sales were already declining. So I would assume they put some expectations on that movie to garner more interest. The main problem would be the fact that the anime didn't really boost sales THAT much. I think people were expecting Toriko to explode once the anime started and the children-friendly anime might have been the biggest blow to the franchise.

I didn't knew about the DVD sales of the movie. Is strange that will such tickets sales it got so big DVD ones.

About Toriko anime boost and the expectation for the title:

Toriko before the anime was selling 210k(by volume 13). That is not much, specially for a battle manga. Haikyuu!! was selling more than that before its anime. Boku no Hero Academia volume 2 is already selling 240k, more than Toriko. In the extreme we have One Piece that had a 1st print for volume 1 of 300k.

Toriko was basically selling the same as Nurarihyon no Mago. The series was popular in the magazine but by volume it wasn't(You can think of it like Hinomaru Zumou). The Big expectations for Toriko, about selling as much as Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, is a thing of the west and certainly not of the companies. People started seeing Toriko in the Cover of the magazine, and people were thinking that meant Big 3. Also the crossovers with One Piece, that had more to do with Oda being Shimabukuro's friend, the series being of Toei, being aired in the same TV Channel, Fuji TV, and in the same block, big 9. Everything was so connected that it would be strange for the guys in Toei not to try to do something like that.

After anime started airing it reached 350k, in around 1 year, this is 67% boost. This is a pretty big boost!
Is not the current incredible 200% or 300% boosts seen in recent mega success titles, but note that by print values One Piece got a boost of around 49% in its 1st year of anime, of course One Piece boost continued each year while Toriko started at some point to decrease, but if you compare One Piece with Attack on Titan it looses immensely given that Attack on Titan got a boost of 196% in the 1st year of the anime.

Children friendly anime and it being a blow to the franchise is bullshit. This is basically the new(that must not really be new) western idea of edgier and darker means better and more popular. If that was true One Piece wouldn't have had the boost it got in 2009 through 2011, because you know what? Is Children friendly, too!
Like if the first episode of Toriko if it had shown the Galala Gator head coming out and blood everywhere would sell more. The answer is obviously not.
Also you have now Nanatsu no Taizai. You don't see "dark themes" on it and it is having a boost of around 300%. Should they show more blood and severed limbs? Because it would improve even more its anime boost? No!

 

[Stark700]

Children friendly anime and it being a blow to the franchise is bullshit. This is basically the new(that must not really be new) western idea of edgier and darker means better and more popular. If that was true One Piece wouldn't have had the boost it got in 2009 through 2011, because you know what? Is Children friendly, too!
Like if the first episode of Toriko if it had shown the Galala Gator head coming out and blood everywhere would sell more. The answer is obviously not.
Also you have now Nanatsu no Taizai. You don't see "dark themes" on it and it is having a boost of around 300%. Should they show more blood and severed limbs? Because it would improve even more its anime boost? No!

You're talking about severe extremes here. Obviously not many would want gore like that.

western idea of edgier and darker means better and more popular.

Where did you even get this from?

 

[kewl0210]

The controversy was about a lot of things in the manga being taken out, censored, made more kid friendly or just sorta "softened". That includes things like removing the explanations of the pseudoscience behind events, and they added in these jokey kid-friendly omakes and a filler character to explain some of the narration without using a narrator. Fans didn't want it "full of gore and edginess" they just wanted it more like the manga.

Here's a little album somebody made to explain some of the visual differences:
http://imgur.com/a/efeif

I didn't have much of a problem with it really, but that's what a lot of people said. It made it lose something without that kinda thing.

 

[IronAngel]

Toriko was basically selling the same as Nurarihyon no Mago. The series was popular in the magazine but by volume it wasn't(You can think of it like Hinomaru Zumou). The Big expectations for Toriko, about selling as much as Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, is a thing of the west and certainly not of the companies. People started seeing Toriko in the Cover of the magazine, and people were thinking that meant Big 3. Also the crossovers with One Piece, that had more to do with Oda being Shimabukuro's friend, the series being of Toei, being aired in the same TV Channel, Fuji TV, and in the same block, big 9. Everything was so connected that it would be strange for the guys in Toei not to try to do something like that.

Just a small observation. A company will ALWAYS try to make its product sell more. What you are saying is mere speculation, and it can't really be proven. Looking at it from a business perspective, all the crossovers with OP and DB, as well as the magazine covers were to help Toriko increase its sales even more. It just shows that the magazine had a lot of faith in the series. It did become a success in Japan, just not as big as the series we refer to as the "Big 3."

 

[Unok]

Children friendly anime and it being a blow to the franchise is bullshit. This is basically the new(that must not really be new) western idea of edgier and darker means better and more popular. If that was true One Piece wouldn't have had the boost it got in 2009 through 2011, because you know what? Is Children friendly, too!
Like if the first episode of Toriko if it had shown the Galala Gator head coming out and blood everywhere would sell more. The answer is obviously not.
Also you have now Nanatsu no Taizai. You don't see "dark themes" on it and it is having a boost of around 300%. Should they show more blood and severed limbs? Because it would improve even more its anime boost? No!

It obviously had impact on popularity. Toriko did not even had blood until 130+ episode or something, when it started showing "dried" blood. One Piece always had blood. Sanjis is smoking ever since the beginning. Smoking in Toriko was removed not once or twice. Toriko was made much more children-friendly than One Piece. If Toriko came out the same time as OP, then it wouldn't have matter, but in this age, it matters. Nanatsu no Taizai have plenty of blood too. Ban gets mutilated quite a lot both manga and anime and there are plenty of bloody scenes. Toriko was so much censured, that it completely changed the effect of the battles. I suppose if the new HxH was made like Toriko anime, it would still had such success? Or the fans would have been raging? If Naruto was also censored more, then it would have been liked less. Like the censored scene were Naruto stabs his arm, but in 4kids (I think) version it squished a tomato, imagine the whole show being like that. Terra Formars got lots of negativity (in Japan) due to the censor.

Mansam gets pierced in the chest and you see ripped clothes, Ban gets pierced and you see blood. Which is more children friendly?

 

[Bigivelfhq]

Just a small observation. A company will ALWAYS try to make its product sell more. What you are saying is mere speculation, and it can't really be proven. Looking at it from a business perspective, all the crossovers with OP and DB, as well as the magazine covers were to help Toriko increase its sales even more. It just shows that the magazine had a lot of faith in the series. It did become a success in Japan, just not as big as the series we refer to as the "Big 3."

What trying always to make its product sell more has any thing to do with the expectations and something not being indication of certain expectations? People always tell that Toriko was a disappointment because it failed the expectations. The problem is that it didn't! After the anime had a good volume sales boost, the anime had a amazing TV rankings, and it had a lot of merchandising that sold.

From a business perspective a crossover was never used to get a boost in sales, even less a big boost. Crossover were always used as little extras, just like special episodes. Why would it now be used for something more?
You have tons of crossovers being made all over the place. Detective Conan with Lupin III, Hello Kitty and Chopper, Doraemon and Shin-Chan, Attack on Titan and Marvel, ... None of them brought a significant boost, so why would companies start using it like that now. And no, I'm not saying it has no effect, but it doesn't compare with the content of the title, its direct marketing and the word of mouth. At most it has a little spice effect.
So yes Toriko 1st episode crossover with One Piece was made to give a little push in Toriko beginning, just like Gintama 1st episode special was made with that same intention.

With Toriko in the cover comment I probably didn't specified enough, I'm talking of the group covers where Toriko appeared in the front. That has only to do with how the title is doing in the magazine, and it doesn't has nothing to do with its situation in the volumes. As I said, Toriko by the volume 13 was only selling around 210k copies per volume, that is a fact. And that value isn't much(for a super popular series), is basically the same as Nurarihyon, but the series was still appearing in the front all that time.

How is what I'm saying, that it wasn't the company expectation hat it would sell as much as the biggest selling mangas of the magazine, just a speculation? While I can't never be 100% sure, unless I know someone inside of the company, is not hard to see that only someone to stupid or to arrogant would expect a title to get in the top of the industry! More when talking of a title doing what Toriko was doing. Caution is something that you must have in a business, certainly animation companies are also like that.
For example, just for Toriko to get the volumes sales of Bleach at its peak, 800k, it would need an anime boost of 280%. Do you really think that someone in Toei and Shueisha was delusional enough to seriously expect such kind of boost? Not saying that when the time comes and the title seems to be able to achieve that value they will not make everything possible to get it, but if it doesn't do nothing like that there will be nobody disappointed.

 

[kewl0210]

Yeah, I don't think Toriko failed any expectations. It's sold like 22 million copies so far, a whole bunch of video games and tons of other stuff.

I think most likely it has to do with something like "People who read it enjoyed it, but a lot of people didn't read it/buy it, so it had a lot of covers and stuff". Still, quite a few did both.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

The controversy was about a lot of things in the manga being taken out, censored, made more kid friendly or just sorta "softened". That includes things like removing the explanations of the pseudoscience behind events, and they added in these jokey kid-friendly omakes and a filler character to explain some of the narration without using a narrator. Fans didn't want it "full of gore and edginess" they just wanted it more like the manga.

Here's a little album somebody made to explain some of the visual differences:
http://imgur.com/a/efeif

I didn't have much of a problem with it really, but that's what a lot of people said. It made it lose something without that kinda thing.

The album just show differences in gore and blood. So ...

The filler character isn't even bad, and I don't see how a good filler character gives a blow to series. That just make previous fans mad, and nothing to do with new fans. That would really only affect the anime, that had good rankings.

I don't remember any pseudoscience explanation removed, but I'm also not a die hard fan of Toriko, so probably I didn't noticed. That could make the series less popular given that is content that could attract people. Though I rarely hear people talking much about that problem, so probably they didn't removed much, or at least is not that noticeable.

Kid friendly omakes are those about the food animals and the gifts and where it is waldo, right? How can that have a negative impact into a shonen anime, specially from jump, that airs in the morning. Didn't One Piece had for some time some game with the treasure chest? That most have such a bad impact to the series. Wouldn't that add popularity from the kid and young teens demographics? Because Nanatsu no Taizai does something similar, and I'm not seeing it affecting badly the title.

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

It obviously had impact on popularity. Toriko did not even had blood until 130+ episode or something, when it started showing "dried" blood. One Piece always had blood. Sanjis is smoking ever since the beginning. Smoking in Toriko was removed not once or twice. Toriko was made much more children-friendly than One Piece. If Toriko came out the same time as OP, then it wouldn't have matter, but in this age, it matters. Nanatsu no Taizai have plenty of blood too. Ban gets mutilated quite a lot both manga and anime and there are plenty of bloody scenes. Toriko was so much censured, that it completely changed the effect of the battles. I suppose if the new HxH was made like Toriko anime, it would still had such success? Or the fans would have been raging? If Naruto was also censored more, then it would have been liked less. Like the censored scene were Naruto stabs his arm, but in 4kids (I think) version it squished a tomato, imagine the whole show being like that. Terra Formars got lots of negativity (in Japan) due to the censor.

Mansam gets pierced in the chest and you see ripped clothes, Ban gets pierced and you see blood. Which is more children friendly?

LOL! Are you talking of the western community or Japan? Because for your information you're not in a "darker age" than 15 years ago.

Are you comparing Terra Formars series censorship with Toriko? Really?

 

[kewl0210]

I translated the whole manga and anime. At the beginning I was trying to use my manga scripts and just edit them/improve them (Since I did them in like 3 years earlier) to save time, but then it turned out they'd changed so much that I couldn't use them. It's more that it changed the "tone". Like in the manga, before the Four Beast fight, there's a conversation about preparing one's self for failure and what failure means, in the anime it was a conversation about whether you save your favorite food for the end of the meal or eat it first. More time was spent on action than "strategy" and that sorta thing. And the art was always less detailed.

I do feel like kids tend to enjoy things that seem more mature. Even if it's just visually and that sorta thing. Like Star Wars the original series wasn't ever "aimed towards kids" but it was still was highly enjoyed by kids. And everybody, really.

 

[Bigivelfhq]

You're talking about severe extremes here. Obviously not many would want gore like that.



Where did you even get this from?

Is not hard to find a lot of people talking about that. Look here in this thread how it matters now but about 15 years ago it didn't!

Toriko was made much more children-friendly than One Piece. If Toriko came out the same time as OP, then it wouldn't have matter, but in this age, it matters.

 

[Leoat12]

*2.　186,887　1,061,007　Naruto Vol.72
*7.　*75,584　*,271,707　Nisekoi Vol.16
15.　*29,445　*,*88,270　Saiki Kusuo no Ψ Nan Vol.12
45.　*15,879　*,723,236　Ansatsu Kyoushitsu Vol.12

Sad for Hinomaru Zumou, again it didn't reach the second week

 

[Bigivelfhq]

*2.　186,887　1,061,007　Naruto Vol.72
*7.　*75,584　*,271,707　Nisekoi Vol.16
15.　*29,445　*,*88,270　Saiki Kusuo no Ψ Nan Vol.12
45.　*15,879　*,723,236　Ansatsu Kyoushitsu Vol.12

Sad for Hinomaru Zumou, again it didn't reach the second week

You forgot our good friend:
20.　*25,185　2,921,583　One Piece Vol.76

I don't know what is happening, but it seems One Piece is returning to the old glory when it was in the middle of the big boost. Almost certainly it will sell 3 Million copies before volume 77, and still in the Oricon List.