Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

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WyldViolet

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Umm... I don't see that necessarily as a "problem" of Rain Spectres... But maybe it would be better for one to broaden one's scope of believable narratives, since that would allow for more variety of stories to be enjoyed. In any case I'm glad you also enjoyed U19.
Purposefully limiting oneself is a problem. It's intellectually dishonest and prohibits growth.
But U19 isn't subtle about it's approach. Taking it entirely seriously is as weird as people taking Verehoeven's Starship Troopers seriously.
Not that the satirical elements between the two are the same, just that they're layed on so thick you'd have to be thick to not get it.
 

Rain Spectre

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Purposefully limiting oneself is a problem. It's intellectually dishonest and prohibits growth.
But U19 isn't subtle about it's approach. Taking it entirely seriously is as weird as people taking Verehoeven's Starship Troopers seriously.
Not that the satirical elements between the two are the same, just that they're layed on so thick you'd have to be thick to not get it.
I don't really get how "looking at this from the lens of what succeeds" qualifies as intellectual dishonesty, to be honest.

Also, you think the concepts in U19 were unbelievable for the purpose of...satire? That's an...interesting interpretation, though I highly doubt an intentional one.
 

WyldViolet

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I don't really get how "looking at this from the lens of what succeeds" qualifies as intellectual dishonesty, to be honest.

Also, you think the concepts in U19 were unbelievable for the purpose of...satire? That's an...interesting interpretation, though I highly doubt an intentional one.
It's absolutely intentional. How is it not inherently absurdist political satire? Are you familiar with the education and occupational system in Japan?
Whether it was the right choice for Jump, or even smart satire (it's shallow but it's aimed at kids so it can pass.) can certainly be argued.
It's content however is very obvious.
 

Rain Spectre

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It's absolutely intentional. How is it not inherently absurdist political satire? Are you familiar with the education and occupational system in Japan?
Whether it was the right choice for Jump, or even smart satire can certainly be argued.
It's content however is very obvious.
satire
/ˈsatʌɪə/
noun

  1. the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
"Cartoonish supervillain exaggeration of Japanese social issues" doesn't qualify as satire. Especially when the manga takes itself entirely seriously.
 

WyldViolet

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satire
/ˈsatʌɪə/
noun

  1. the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
"Cartoonish supervillain exaggeration of Japanese social issues" doesn't qualify as satire.
Did you even read the definition you posted? Its exaggerated portrayal of Japan's education, political, and employment systems is satirical.
I think you're missing the context or something.
 

Rain Spectre

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Did you even read the definition you posted? Its exaggerated portrayal of Japan's education, political, and employment systems is satirical.
I think you're missing the context or something.
I'm questioning how it qualifies as "satirical" when it's just used to justify the setting for a battle manga.
 

WyldViolet

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I'm questioning how it qualifies as "satirical" when it's just used to justify the setting for a battle manga.
Have you seen Starship Troopers? The movie takes its narrative rather seriously about American wartime patriotism yet they are clearly war mongering nazis and everything looks like it was visually derived from Triumph of the Will and Nazi recruitment propoganda.
Just because something isn't spelled out to you in narration or dialog or exists as the setting doesn't mean it isn't obvious

You limit the way you see satire. Try and read between the lines more.
 

supercow297

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I can see both your sides actually. While some issues U19 takes seriously (well or not), other times the seriousness is played so hard that it's satire for sure. The caricature-like teacher was pretty hilarious in this regard.
 

WyldViolet

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Whether it has elements that the series takes seriously isn't important.
Countless satires feature serious plots or characters but absurdist backdrops.
 

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Walltexts defending U19.
I think this is the pinnacle of this thread and I love it.
I thought I was the only one who liked this manga. The art, powers and characters were so cool and the plot progresses relatively well for a canned manga, even though I think the premise is a garbage.
It has maaaaaany conception flaws but execution was good.
 

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My biggest problems with U19 were the bland character designs and personalities.
I liked the world and set-up, just didn't care enough for it to all stick.
The pacing of the early chapters was rough as well.
Still thought it was fun and want to see Kimura return.
 

Scruffy8642

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Did you know that, since 2000, there have only been four hit sport manga in Jump? I'm shocked myself.
It's low in terms of numbers, and I'm also assuming you're not counting HZ, so yes, four, but there's a lot to consider. Whistle, Rookies, Rising Impact, Hikaru no Go, and Prince of Tennis all started between 98-00 and all had most of their run in the 2000s, so there was a massive influx going into that period. You've got to consider that having all these running would have made it harder for new series to take off. 2003 for example had 6 hit sport manga running at once (though 3 ended in the same year). Note that this was during one of the most competitive times in Jump history. You could also argue that Yu Gi Oh falls into this category, being quasi board game/battle manga that satisfies a similar itch, and which started and ran in a similar period. Eyeshield and PoT then remained dominant for most of the 00s, running 7 and 9 years respectively, cutting out other sport series until they were reaching their conclusions - around the time Kuroko started.

There is certainly a problem after this though, since Kuroko ended in 2014, and HQ is the only one to take off since. That said, HZ has probably played a significant role in this. In it's 5 year run, how many potential manga has it caused to be cancelled by occupying a place? You could argue they'd have let another sport manga survive if it wasn't around, like say RxL, which even at its worse was still selling roughly 2x more. Maybe nothing else would have taken off, but you can't deny the possibility. Now that it's conclusion is mere weeks/months away, it will be interesting to see what impact this has on new sport manga.

Also interesting that many of the not-insta cancelled series post 2010 have been sports manga. Kurogane at 68, Cross Manage at 42, Straighten Up at 86, Mononofu at 43, Robo at 62. These make up 5/9 manga post 2010 that made it past 40 chapters but were cancelled without taking off. They're certainly trying at least.

And then sales. Jump sales rankings in the 2010s (ignoring OP & HxH from 2 decades prior) are AC>HQ>MHA>Kuroko>>>rest as far as peaks are concerned. Not to mention that a sports manga (or multiple) has almost always been near the top of the Jump lineup popularity-wise throughout pretty much all of the magazine's history. The genre is still very much important and valuable to Shueisha, and I don't think they’re even close to giving up on them since they're releasing 2 of them just in this one round. New sports and comedies are easily at the top of my “want” list right now.
 

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I only read the jump start run of U19 but I enjoyed it because of how intensely hilariously horrendous it was. The themes were overblown to the point of making no sense, it built itself up like a battle manga but never actually had a battle in the first 3 chapters, ch 1 felt like it was 1/4 of the what should've been in ch 1, and it had a heavily political focus without any grasp on how politics actually work whatsoever.
 

CrimsonEpitaph

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It's incredible how Horikoshi can go from an incredible hype arc (pro hero) to a boring, stretched out one (A vs B) to another hype arc (current one).
Shame that he doesn't make the students' dynamics as interesting as the LoV's, and that their character development is less interesting as well.
 

Rain Spectre

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It's low in terms of numbers, and I'm also assuming you're not counting HZ, so yes, four, but there's a lot to consider. Whistle, Rookies, Rising Impact, Hikaru no Go, and Prince of Tennis all started between 98-00 and all had most of their run in the 2000s, so there was a massive influx going into that period. You've got to consider that having all these running would have made it harder for new series to take off. 2003 for example had 6 hit sport manga running at once (though 3 ended in the same year). Note that this was during one of the most competitive times in Jump history. You could also argue that Yu Gi Oh falls into this category, being quasi board game/battle manga that satisfies a similar itch, and which started and ran in a similar period. Eyeshield and PoT then remained dominant for most of the 00s, running 7 and 9 years respectively, cutting out other sport series until they were reaching their conclusions - around the time Kuroko started.

There is certainly a problem after this though, since Kuroko ended in 2014, and HQ is the only one to take off since. That said, HZ has probably played a significant role in this. In it's 5 year run, how many potential manga has it caused to be cancelled by occupying a place? You could argue they'd have let another sport manga survive if it wasn't around, like say RxL, which even at its worse was still selling roughly 2x more. Maybe nothing else would have taken off, but you can't deny the possibility. Now that it's conclusion is mere weeks/months away, it will be interesting to see what impact this has on new sport manga.

Also interesting that many of the not-insta cancelled series post 2010 have been sports manga. Kurogane at 68, Cross Manage at 42, Straighten Up at 86, Mononofu at 43, Robo at 62. These make up 5/9 manga post 2010 that made it past 40 chapters but were cancelled without taking off. They're certainly trying at least.

And then sales. Jump sales rankings in the 2010s (ignoring OP & HxH from 2 decades prior) are AC>HQ>MHA>Kuroko>>>rest as far as peaks are concerned. Not to mention that a sports manga (or multiple) has almost always been near the top of the Jump lineup popularity-wise throughout pretty much all of the magazine's history. The genre is still very much important and valuable to Shueisha, and I don't think they’re even close to giving up on them since they're releasing 2 of them just in this one round. New sports and comedies are easily at the top of my “want” list right now.
All excellent points, though the huge influx of sports series around the turn of the millennium is intriguing to me in how it happened, and then suddenly stopped, and now we have a situation where we can only have 1-2 sport hits at a time to be sustainable, despite those hits being almost always core titles in the magazine.

Trust me, however tricky to understand what makes battle and sport manga succeed is much harder with romance and comedy. There I still am struggling to figure out the patterns.
 

Ctkk

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And then sales. Jump sales rankings in the 2010s (ignoring OP & HxH from 2 decades prior) are AC>HQ>MHA>Kuroko>>>rest as far as peaks are concerned. Not to mention that a sports manga (or multiple) has almost always been near the top of the Jump lineup popularity-wise throughout pretty much all of the magazine's history. The genre is still very much important and valuable to Shueisha, and I don't think they’re even close to giving up on them since they're releasing 2 of them just in this one round. New sports and comedies are easily at the top of my “want” list right now.
I'm just here noticing that the two biggest jump battle manga of the decade have school settings, and so does what seems to be the next huge one (JJK).

Is this a trend?
 

tirakai

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I wonder how much is it is the modern image of the magazine. Is a writer who wants to do a sports manga going to try for jump which has this current image of only really having 2-3 at once, all of which are currently filled spots? Or maybe wsj just isn't accepting many since they're fine with the current lineup up them (one normal sport, one battle sport, one alternate weird semi-sport).
 

Thundercat27

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After reading the third chapter of Samurai 8, I feel quiet perplexed by Nanashi.
I am wondering if Kishi got inspiration for Nanashi from an opinion that Sasuke should be a female so "she" could be both rival and love-interest of Naruto.
 

tirakai

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I'm just here noticing that the two biggest jump battle manga of the decade have school settings, and so does what seems to be the next huge one (JJK).

Is this a trend?
Are you referring to Ass Class as a battle manga? Because it's really not one, it's a 'criminal becomes teacher and helps students'-kinda manga (like GTO/Gokusen, whatever that genre's called) at its core with occasional brief action arcs.

Aside from that the biggest are World Trigger (which did start in school but left it pretty quick to focus on the organisation) and Black Clover which is pure fantasy world.
 
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