Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[supercow297]

By that logic the reason every Shonen Jump manga has a large male following is due to the female characters.

 

[ChocoBar9]

I didn't say she was the strongest human in the series, I said she was their main fighter (their = from Senku's team). Senku literally said so himself.

You said that she wa sthe main fighter in the series which isn't true as she isn't the only fighter and isn't even the strongest human

And I don't really get what you are trying to say in the rest of your post. You were arguing that the girls are nothing but love interests and baby makers, I pointed out that this is wrong and that many of them have very important roles. Now you are acting as if I said that the girls are more important that the guys, which I did not. But they are a whole lot more important than you made them out to be.

That you pointing out the roles they play (most of which are the same person) doesn't negate the fact that they're love interests and baby makers because that was what the entirity of the female crew apart of the space mission became.

if the main goal was to repopulate the earth, doesn't that mean the men were also breeding bulls? How exactly did you come to the conclusion that a woman having children to save the species is a breeding cow, but a man doing the same thing is an important character? They had about equal amounts of screentime and everything...

The males literally stated that it was like making a big family and didn't treat it as if it was a mission as human beings.

Huh?

Okay, I'm really confused now. When did I ever say anything about the writer of Dr. Stone trying to make a statement with his female cast?

When did I ever say that AA is trying to make a statement? I'm arguing that its not and it just has good writing in general regardless of gender roles.

 

[NeeNeen]

I agree, I'm just wondering what specifically you think is lacking specifically. If there's no one thing in particular then I think it just depends on the quality of the writer. In this day and age, I'd somewhat casually hypothesize that the presence of bad female characters in means the male characters are probably bad too, and similarly for good female characters.

Well, agency and character motivation is a big one. No matter how great her story or how impressive her capabilities, if she's doing it all just to please some guy, I'm not going to be impressed. (Death Note suffers from this a lot.)

Screentime is another one. Having great females is always a good thing, but if you're barely using them, it ends up being a waste. (MHA is struggling with this a bit, though not dramatically so.)

And being able to hold their own among the rest of the cast is also important. If your girl is totally awesome, but all the guys around her are even more awesome, she's going to end up looking like a weakling by comparison. (Series like Naruto, One Piece, Black Clover are prone to this.)

I just don't see why there is a faction of people who see the need to consistently divide this on a gender line as the default mode of analysis. I think that should only be the right way when a series is clearly unbalanced gender-wise, for no good reason. (e.g. Hinomaru Zumou has a pretty solid basis on why males are the focus)

A good series and a progressive series are two different things. A strong female character and a feminist character are two different things.

In general, when reading shonen, you should expect the male characters to be more important (and vice versa in shojo). That doesn't bother me, but seeing girls being treated like plot devices does. I'd rather have no females at all than badly written ones.


Then again, this discussion specifically asked for the most feminist/progressive series, so it's only normal for the gender line to come into play here.

 

[Kharthas]

You can count on a single Twitter/Facebook screencap from a literal who to derail any discussion it's posted in and turn it to shit. It's the same for reddit and 4chan too.

 

[supercow297]

Well, agency and character motivation is a big one. No matter how great her story or how impressive her capabilities, if she's doing it all just to please some guy, I'm not going to be impressed. (Death Note suffers from this a lot.)

Screentime is another one. Having great females is always a good thing, but if you're barely using them, it ends up being a waste. (MHA is struggling with this a bit, though not dramatically so.)

And being able to hold their own among the rest of the cast is also important. If your girl is totally awesome, but all the guys around her are even more awesome, she's going to end up looking like a weakling by comparison. (Series like Naruto, One Piece, Black Clover are prone to this.)




A good series and a progressive series are two different things. A strong female character and a feminist character are two different things.

In general, when reading shonen, you should expect the male characters to be more important (and vice versa in shojo). That doesn't bother me, but seeing girls being treated like plot devices does. I'd rather have no females at all than badly written ones.


Then again, this discussion specifically asked for the most feminist/progressive series, so it's only normal for the gender line to come into play here.

Death Note
Yeah Death Note is just very bad with handling females due to the author's inherent biases, it's disappointing.

Naruto
From what I recall yes.

One Piece
Mostly in agreement but Big Mom.

Black Clover
Agency - I think Noelle has a lot of agency, as does Mereoleona, etc. etc. And Black Clover hardly has the "weakling in comparison" effect. Even in the most recent chapter (although DEFINITELY not restricted to it) we got a super OP matriarch character. And don't forget Vanessa's mom. You have to really be reaching to think female characters look weak in comparison to male ones in Black Clover.

MHA
Character motivation is highly subjective to be fair, but since you implied MHA has great females that just lack screentime, I don't think the first part of that is true. Uraraka's stated motivation is just "money" and "heroism". None of the other girls' motivations are even memorable enough for me to recall right now.

Everything else you said makes perfect sense, I just wanted to address some specific examples you brought up.

 

[NeeNeen]

You said that she wa sthe main fighter in the series which isn't true as she isn't the only fighter and isn't even the strongest human

No, I said she was THEIR main fighter (as in Senku's team's). I already explained this.

That you pointing out the roles they play (most of which are the same person) doesn't negate the fact that they're love interests and baby makers because that was what the entirity of the female crew apart of the space mission became.

Same person? I was talking about 6 different female characters.

And yes, it does negate it. The fact that three (very minor) female characters had children does not mean that all of the cast are nothing but love interests and baby makers. Most of them are neither.

Also let me stress once again that all of the men from the space mission were 'baby makers' as well. It takes two to tango.

The males literally stated that it was like making a big family and didn't treat it as if it was a mission as human beings.

And this makes them not baby makers because..?

When did I ever say that AA is trying to make a statement? I'm arguing that its not and it just has good writing in general regardless of gender roles.

Yeah, I got that part. (I agree, btw.)

But I said "I'm not sure why you seem to be looking for some kind of ploy here, treating women like humans doesn't require any kind of political intent" and you responded with "you did the exact same thing too with Dr. Stone." I don't understand what you meant by that, because I wasn't looking for any kind of political intent in Dr. Stone.

(I said that because you seemed to assume that most series that have strong female characters are doing it on purpose to make some kind of statement. I don't think that's the case, since you don't need to be progressive to write good females.)

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Black Clover
Agency - I think Noelle has a lot of agency, as does Mereoleona, etc. etc. And Black Clover hardly has the "weakling in comparison" effect. Even in the most recent chapter (although DEFINITELY not restricted to it) we got a super OP matriarch character. And don't forget Vanessa's mom. You have to really be reaching to think female characters look weak in comparison to male ones in Black Clover.

No argument here, I'm not up to date with the latest arcs. I remember the series suffering from it in the beginning.

MHA
Character motivation is highly subjective to be fair, but since you implied MHA has great females that just lack screentime, I don't think the first part of that is true. Uraraka's stated motivation is just "money" and "heroism". None of the other girls' motivations are even memorable enough for me to recall right now.

And how many of the guys' motivations can you recall? Aside from Deku and Todoroki, is anyone really that special?

In a series like this, "I wanna be a hero" is good enough for me, because that's what everyone is there for to begin with. Motivation is not the issue here. The problem is that there are so many interesting characters (both male and female) that there simply isn't enough time to cover them all. And since most of the screentime goes to the (mostly male) main cast, the absense of the females is even more noticable.

 

[ChocoBar9]

No, I said she was THEIR main fighter (as in Senku's team's). I already explained this.

Your initial post didn't.

Same person? I was talking about 6 different female characters.

Uh...almost all those you listed occupy the same roles (Yuzuriha was reconnaissance and was also in the stone resurgance project)

And yes, it does negate it. The fact that three (very minor) female characters had children does not mean that all of the cast are nothing but love interests and baby makers. Most of them are neither.

So the fact that the most crucial element to the series in itself is minor because they represent a negative stereotype for women in shounen?

Also let me stress once again that all of the men from the space mission were 'baby makers' as well. It takes two to tango.

Not really because I stress again they didn't treat it as a mission.

But I said "I'm not sure why you seem to be looking for some kind of ploy here, treating women like humans doesn't require any kind of political intent" and you responded with "you did the exact same thing too with Dr. Stone." I don't understand what you meant by that, because I wasn't looking for any kind of political intent in Dr. Stone.

By listing off the occupations they play to downplay the fact that they're mostly support for the males and not nearly as important no different from the "strong woman=good character" stance people take.

(I said that because you seemed to assume that most series that have strong female characters are doing it on purpose to make some kind of statement. I don't think that's the case, since you don't need to be progressive to write good females.)

Absolutely nowhere did I say that.

No argument here, I'm not up to date with the latest arcs. I remember the series suffering from it in the beginning.

There's no argument because he's mostly blowing smoke out his butt like every BC fan does.

 

[pamuchi]

From the few I’ve read/watched:

Black Clover has been doing pretty well with its female characters. Take Noelle for example: I need to catch up to the series, but I find it really nice how she’s a badass in her own right. She can hold her own and fight alongside her squad. She’s also a pretty decent character as well - I can see why she acts the way she acts (her inability to control her magic compared to her status and how her family’s treats her as a result of that) and I can root for her. Also, as a tsundere, she isn’t completely annoying, which is a huge boon for me.

MHA’s female characters end up being one of the weaker aspects for me, since as it’s been stated: they’re really good whenever the hell they get any screentime. That screentime ends up being rare, however, and it’s something I seriously hope Horikoshi fixes down the line. I’ve found it a bit frustrating, especially since IMO Hori’s so good with making a character immediately interesting through their design and the initial personality they have but then they’re gone. Again, as has been stated, this seems to stem from a problem of Hori not having enough time to develop minor characters.

I have been enjoying Emma and Isabella so far in Neverland, though honestly I’m anime only on that one.

How is Kimetsu with its female characters? Haven’t heard much talk on that.

There's not only Nezuko, there's Kanao, Uzui's wives, Tamayo, Shinobu, Mitsuri, even Ume and the girl who plays the biwa despite being Upper moons. All of them have played an important role during fights without being hindrances.

 

[Mammo]

Mitama introduced a 4th guy that wants Rina, 5 dudes if you count the tunnel ghost
Mitama is a reverse harem wake up sheeple

Totally random, but I just finished reading through Pochi Kuro on a whim, and I must say, it was a really excellent story. Nice sense of humor, distinctive character designs, and a really feel-good story. I really wish it could've gone on for longer, but nothing about it really ever felt rushed. Hopefully the author will be back with something even better soon

we got another one

Weekly Shoseki Manga Rankings
10/21-10/27

漫画・マンガ・コミック 売上ランキングBEST500

漫画・コミックの売上ランキングを日々更新！　詳細はISBNコード（13ケタの数字）でご確認願います。文庫はhttp://shoseki500.blog.shinobi.jp/に移転しました

shosekiranking.blog.fc2.com

My Hero Academia

125. My Hero Academia #24
239. My Hero Academia #23
324. My Hero Academia #22
364. My Hero Academia #20
369. My Hero Academia #18
373. My Hero Academia #21
404. My Hero Academia #17
405. My Hero Academia #1
413. My Hero Academia #19
426. My Hero Academia #16
457. My Hero Academia #2
458. My Hero Academia #15
482. My Hero Academia #14
496. My Hero Academia #3

b-b-but people told me mha new season won't give it a boost
can't wait to have the exact same argument when s5 starts

This does bring up something I wanted to discuss in the future, but I might as well do so now.

Which WSJ series would you say are the most progressive in terms of feminism?

hmmm Dragon quest? Saint Seiya? heck even Gintama? there are more but out of the top of my head, I think these have some pretty well written femchar

Isn't Pochikuro's mangakas Tabatas wife? If not Tabata, was some some other well known Jump mangaka.
Regardless I also really liked Pochikuro. One of my favorite Jump+ series I wish had debuted in the main mag. Hopefully she can get another shot.

she's Sawai's (Bobobobobo) wife
she, Tabata & Tamura were Psyren mangaka assistants

Would you want a well-done isekai series in WSJ

I want an isekai like Digimon, Mashin Eiyuuden Wataru, Monster rancher, Greed Island arc

an light hearted colorful adventure in unfamiliar world with focus on exploration and training to get good in the new world

but wish fulfillment trash like : lol I have broken superpowers, lol my abilities are op, lol everyone love me i'm so great, lol my harem are too big etc... can go rot in hell

 

[Xzone]

Is a nekketsu, I want to see people fighting each other,not if they're many powerful women or men.
Yeah, cases like how kishimoto threat his female character or marysues are good to heard, but caring if a shonen have better female character than other is more boring/predictable than interesting.

 

[Halloween]

Moderator Notice:
I've noticed there's been a lot of hostility and posting of open spoilers recently, especially in regards to Dr. Stone. Now, I don't mind the debate about female characters that's currently taking place, as I feel it's a worthy and interesting debate.

However, the hostility has to stop. We can all debate calmy without resorting to curse words and passive aggressiveness. In regards to open spoilers, I feel that's pretty self evident. If it's anything beyond the basic plot synopsis, spoiler tag it.~ Buranchi

 

[Tarot]

Imagine thinking MHA is progressive when none of the female characters from the main cast has been relevant to the plot or noteworthy like the male characters.

 

[NeeNeen]

Your initial post didn't.

Yes, it did. Here's my initial post:

Are we reading the same series? Their main fighter is a woman, their main inside intelligence source is a woman, their main tailor & body restorer is a woman, their main reconnaissance spy is a woman, their main cook is a woman, their main historian is a woman. How are those not important?

Also, most of the females don't even have a love interest (I can think of... two? Three if you count the villains), and none of them have been dropping babies... Seriously, what ARE you talking about?

Fighter = Kohaku
Inside intelligence = Amarylis
Tailor & body restorer = Yuzuriha
Reconnaissance spy = Suika
Cook = François
Historian = Ruri

So the fact that the most crucial element to the series in itself is minor because they represent a negative stereotype for women in shounen?

How is that flashback the most crucial element to the series? Even if the village hadn't been there, Senku would have still done his thing. It only would have taken a little longer since he would've had to revive his allies one by one.

And how is being a mother a negative stereotype for women? You keep talking about 'breeding cows', but I think you're the only one who sees it that way.

By listing off the occupations they play to downplay the fact that they're mostly support for the males and not nearly as important no different from the "strong woman=good character" stance people take.

No, I was listing off the occupations to prove you were wrong when you said the women were nothing but love interests and baby makers.

What does this have to do with political intent?

Or are you saying that the writers are using the occupations as a way to make the women look better? Because in that case, let me point out that most of the males have similar occupations. The entire cast basically exists to support Senku, men and women alike.

Absolutely nowhere did I say that.

You didn't say it, but I thought that's what you were implying. I must have misunderstood then, apologies.

 

[Magister Xehanort]

Hi, I just made this account on this forum now, but I've been reading it for years I have been following the TOC since when Nura and Medaka were in the bottom (that was what year?)

My favorites of the decade

Haikyuu
Black Clover
Act-Age
Boku no Hero
Dr Stone

 

[101nemesis]

Hi, I just made this account on this forum now, but I've been reading it for years I have been following the TOC since when Nura and Medaka were in the bottom (that was what year?)

Probably early 2012.
Also, welcome.

 

[Mammo]

Imagine thinking MHA is progressive when none of the female characters from the main cast has been relevant to the plot or noteworthy like the male characters.

I would argue it's one of wsj most progressive title

MHA have touched upon many controversial topics to a varying degrees such as, mental illness (twice), drugs (overhaul) domestic abuse (endeavor), children abuse (eri, shoto, shigy), prejudice against quirkless (deku) systemic flaws (stain), extreme libertarianism (redestro)
they even address a modern day issue like the dangers of internet clout chasing (gentle)

but the original question is "progressive in term of feminism" so i digressed....

 

[Jovan]

Hi, I just made this account on this forum now, but I've been reading it for years I have been following the TOC since when Nura and Medaka were in the bottom (that was what year?)

My favorites of the decade

Haikyuu
Black Clover
Act-Age
Boku no Hero
Dr Stone

2012, and welcome!
TOC Issue 20 (30-4-2012)
1. One Piece
2. Naruto
3. Beelzebub
4. Sket Dance
5. Haikyuu (Second Rank)
6. Toriko
7. Gintama
8. Bakuman
9. Kuroko no Basuke
10. Inumarudashi
11. Pajama na Kanojo (First Rank)
12. Bleach
13. Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
14. Kurogane
15. Magico
16. Nurarihyon no Mago
17. Medaka Box
18. Genson! Kodai Seibutsu-shi Pakki
19. ST&RS (END)

Cover & Lead Colour Page: Kochikame
Color Page: Nisekoi
Color Page: Mutou Black (Oneshot)

 

[ruggia]

Damn.. people really wanna force jump to be a elementary magazine... smh

they're going to flip out when they find out the stuff that's been on an actual elementary magazine in Japan (Coro Coro)

 

[NeeNeen]

I feel like Dricam isn't teaching kids to take care of their stuff.

 

[Xzone]

I would argue it's one of wsj most progressive title

MHA have touched upon many controversial topics to a varying degrees such as, mental illness (twice), drugs (overhaul) domestic abuse (endeavor), children abuse (eri, shoto, shigy), prejudice against quirkless (deku) systemic flaws (stain), extreme libertarianism (redestro)
they even address a modern day issue like the dangers of internet clout chasing (gentle)

but the original question is "progressive in term of feminism" so i digressed....

also

Spoiler

the redestro talk about diversity and probably that interracial couple (I don't remember if he a okinawa's guy or black)

I think both jujutsu and MHA , and maybe Hunter X Hunter are the ones who touch those topic