Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2020] - Discussion and ToC Talk

[Shinuki no Reborn]

MANGAHELPERS "TOC" POLL ISSUE #51 - VOTING!​

The poll for issue #51 is now open, vote for your favorite chapters of the week clicking HERE!

Alongside the release of Sakamoto Days, the extra series this week are:

-Dragon Ball Super 66
-Boruto: Naruto Next Generations 52
-Ghost Reaper Girl 10

Good Votes!

 

[Halloween]

Moderator Notice:
Henceforth, I will be deleting posts that complain about Weekly Shonen Jump having too many/not enough gag/battle/exorcism/sports/etc series.

These posts are not insightful, and do not meaningfully contribute to this thread. Also, this decision is not up for discussion, so posts discussing this decision will also be deleted.~ Halloween

 

[Ryuusei]

Spoiler: 52 TOC & 01 Preview

呪 僕 O マ ブ S C D 破 C B 夜 C 僕 あ 灼 ぼ チ 高 ア 森 A 仄 ぼ 次号カラー ヒロアカ アンデラ 夜桜 約ネバ 道産子 GIGA 岸本先生が描くコラボポスター 爆豪クリアファイル

Spoiler: Issue #52 ToC & Preview

Jujutsu Kaisen (Cover & LCP)
My Hero Academia
One Piece
Mashle
Black Clover
Sakamoto Days (CP)
Dr. Stone
Magu-chan: God of Destruction (CP)
Build King
Mission: Yozakura Family
Me & Roboco
Ayakashi Triangle (CP)
Shakunetsu no Niraikanai
We Never Learn
Chainsaw Man
Koukousei Kazoku
Undead Unluck
Moriking
Agravity Boys
Honomieru Shounen
Bokura no Ketsumei

Issue #1
Cover & LCP: My Hero Academia
CP: Undead Unluck, Mission: Yozakura Family, The Promised Neverland, Dosanko Gyaru wa Namaramenkoi

GIGA Preview
Collab poster by Kishimoto
Bakugou clear file

 

[CerealKiller]

Based on lurking and observation on places like reddit and twitter, I think a key factor that makes Chainsaw more liked is that it is easier to read and follow and the readers don't have to spend 5+ minutes looking at a wiki or asking someone what something means. There's tons of times where I've seen people forget what in-universe terms mean and I think the effort required to read or keep up is part of why I think Jujutsu doesn't have the same readership as Chainsaw. I could just be generalizing, but it seems most western manga readers like easy to read manga that doesn't use confusing/hard to remember terms, which many have said is a part of why Sam8 failed because no one cares about dozens of words/phrases that mean nothing to them.

Chainsaw has messy art, but the line work in general is still smoother and more clear than Jujutsu and therefore easier to parse. Both series have good depth with the tones and such compared to early Sam8, but I think the messy art in action from Jujutsu detracts from the experience from some readers I've seen in comments, where they say they can't tell what is happening.

Same thing people said about Kimetsu when it was less popular, people can't be bothered to try and parse "ugly" art, so they just assume it is a bad manga and don't read it unless it gets popular with an anime. I don't know how popular HxH in the west was before the anime, but Jujutsu is probably following that pattern of growth. Chainsaw is like Berserk/AoT with extreme violence and shocking factors so it clicks easier for western audience who likes mature manga, whereas Jujutsu is just seen as a "darker battle shonen" to most who've heard but not read it.

Also, places like reddit upvote most Chainsaw girl fanart to 3000+, so they're just going by "waifu culture" or whatever. Jujutsu's cast is predominantly male chars and the females aren't sexualized. Again, just generalizing based on my observations. I'm assuming people are discussing Chainsaw vs Jujutsu popularity or something. IDK, just my thoughts. I like both, Top 2 in Jump for me.

 

[KennyKuro]

Friendly reminder that Fujimoto Tatsuki drew Nobara Kugisaki some time ago.

Having the best taste as always.

 

[haijihusbando]

Chainsaw has messy art, but the line work in general is still smoother and more clear than Jujutsu and therefore easier to parse. Both series have good depth with the tones and such compared to early Sam8, but I think the messy art in action from Jujutsu detracts from the experience from some readers I've seen in comments, where they say they can't tell what is happening.

Same thing people said about Kimetsu when it was less popular, people can't be bothered to try and parse "ugly" art, so they just assume it is a bad manga and don't read it unless it gets popular with an anime. I don't know how popular HxH in the west was before the anime, but Jujutsu is probably following that pattern of growth.

Not sure I would agree with that - Kimetsu got a lot harsher criticism than JJK ever did for its art style and composition early on, I don't really think that's as big of a factor in JJK's 'lack' of Western popularity as you make it out to be. Which is why when the anime made the first arcs pretty, Kimetsu became a lot more accessible to a wider audience who were complaining far less about art style.

Chainsaw is like Berserk/AoT with extreme violence and shocking factors so it clicks easier for western audience who likes mature manga, whereas Jujutsu is just seen as a "darker battle shonen" to most who've heard but not read it.

Agree with this though.

 

[tirakai]

The main difference with Chainsawman that got it much more readers is Viz went free right after it started and it has also had mostly up-to-date scans the whole time, so it's always been easy to read.

Jujutsu however had the first 3 chapters by viz, then j-box did it in batches, falling behind and taking big breaks, then viz picked it up without catching up on old chapters, then a different scan group caught up on the gap between j and viz. Until just recently, you had to take some effort going between sources searching around if you wanted to catch up on Jujutsu, while Chainsawman you could just go on viz and read everything.

It'd be really unfortunate if it ends up in Netflix jail, the anime is its chance to finally get a western audience discussing it each week but netflix would just kill that.

 

[Reading Somethin']

For me, that's my least favorite part of Jujutsu Kaisen. The characters and individual arcs are good, but the overall story structure is all over the place. Arcs seem to randomly begin and end without any time to breathe (the flashback arc, good as it might be, is the worst offender in this case). It just doesn't feel that cohesive to me.

The pace is not for everyone, but that arc did not come out of nowhere, much harder to see reading weekly though.

On the other hand, there's a lot more to Chainsaw Man than "pure madness" that people don't give it enough credit for. The madness doesn't just happen out of nowhere, Fujimoto takes a lot of time to build up to these events and give characters more room to express themselves which makes the shocking moments even more shocking. There are plenty of chapters completely dedicated to fleshing out characters with very little action. The overall pacing may be fast, but it's well-planned and methodical.

It's true that CM's story qualities get glanced over, but I feel like it drags some points, like Denji being desperate and pathetic. The story gets oversaturated with throwaway characters, they feel like narrative tools instead of characters. The ratio from events happening to character development feels off to me. I also don't care for "shock factor" which I imagine is crucial to liking CM more.

I feel that CM fans think every critic glances over the story qualities, rather than see faults or have a dislike for how other elements are handled.

Akutami is a little too reliant on text to explain things for my taste (yes, I know that sounds weird coming from the person with a HxH avatar, but Togashi's writing is much more enjoyable/interesting to read, imo). Fujimoto has a really good understanding of comics as a visual medium, and takes advantage of that to create compelling moments that speak for themselves.

Fair. Not to you, but in general stuff like "visual medium" and "Show don't tell!" Get thrown around like buzzwords. Comics have evolved drastically and as with all art "rules," guidelines can, and will be broken.
What's more, a lot of people who whine about series that "tell" don't pay attention when the series shows and miss important details. Imo, what matters is the ratio of telling to showing.

Based on lurking and observation on places like reddit and twitter, I think a key factor that makes Chainsaw more liked is that it is easier to read and follow and the readers don't have to spend 5+ minutes looking at a wiki or asking someone what something means. There's tons of times where I've seen people forget what in-universe terms mean and I think the effort required to read or keep up is part of why I think Jujutsu doesn't have the same readership as Chainsaw. I could just be generalizing, but it seems most western manga readers like easy to read manga that doesn't use confusing/hard to remember terms, which many have said is a part of why Sam8 failed because no one cares about dozens of words/phrases that mean nothing to them.

Chainsaw has messy art, but the line work in general is still smoother and more clear than Jujutsu and therefore easier to parse. Both series have good depth with the tones and such compared to early Sam8, but I think the messy art in action from Jujutsu detracts from the experience from some readers I've seen in comments, where they say they can't tell what is happening.

Same thing people said about Kimetsu when it was less popular, people can't be bothered to try and parse "ugly" art, so they just assume it is a bad manga and don't read it unless it gets popular with an anime. I don't know how popular HxH in the west was before the anime, but Jujutsu is probably following that pattern of growth. Chainsaw is like Berserk/AoT with extreme violence and shocking factors so it clicks easier for western audience who likes mature manga, whereas Jujutsu is just seen as a "darker battle shonen" to most who've heard but not read it.

Also, places like reddit upvote most Chainsaw girl fanart to 3000+, so they're just going by "waifu culture" or whatever. Jujutsu's cast is predominantly male chars and the females aren't sexualized. Again, just generalizing based on my observations. I'm assuming people are discussing Chainsaw vs Jujutsu popularity or something. IDK, just my thoughts. I like both, Top 2 in Jump for me.

This!

HxH wasn't unpopular, but it was under-read and the old anime was in a worse position than the One Piece anime back then, and most complaints and criticism were the same that you see today.

 

[OniluapL]

For me, that's my least favorite part of Jujutsu Kaisen. The characters and individual arcs are good, but the overall story structure is all over the place. Arcs seem to randomly begin and end without any time to breathe (the flashback arc, good as it might be, is the worst offender in this case). It just doesn't feel that cohesive to me.

On the other hand, there's a lot more to Chainsaw Man than "pure madness" that people don't give it enough credit for. The madness doesn't just happen out of nowhere, Fujimoto takes a lot of time to build up to these events and give characters more room to express themselves which makes the shocking moments even more shocking. There are plenty of chapters completely dedicated to fleshing out characters with very little action. The overall pacing may be fast, but it's well-planned and methodical.

And personally, I've found that CSM's craziest moments are much easier to follow than JJK's (which end up being kind of convoluted with the power system).

Akutami is a little too reliant on text to explain things for my taste (yes, I know that sounds weird coming from the person with a HxH avatar, but Togashi's writing is much more enjoyable/interesting to read, imo). Fujimoto has a really good understanding of comics as a visual medium, and takes advantage of that to create beautiful and compelling moments that speak for themselves.

I personally could never get into Jujutsu for that reason. I enjoy a lot of it individually (characters, art/style, power system), but I could never get invested in the overall plot and the structure felt weird. I tried reading it from the beginning twice, and I gave up both times. Someday I will try again, but as of now, I don't think the series is for me.

Although I am enjoying the recent pure madness chapters of CSM, I think that isn't where the series shines, but in the character work and the tone-setting chapters that show how the world of the story works and what Fujimoto's trying to say with. My favorite scenes are in small moments, not in the high-octane insanity (even if they are _really_ enjoyable). It helps that Fujimoto is one of the most visually interesting artists in Jump currently.

 

[Jorden Rivera]

I've saw this debate on twitter before and I hated it. Let's just end before it gets out of hand.

 

[Lil meen]

Friendly reminder that Fujimoto Tatsuki drew Nobara Kugisaki some time ago.

Having the best taste as always.

After looking at this I am curious on how jujutsu would look if drawn by fujimoto

 

[Reading Somethin']

I've saw this debate on twitter before and I hated it. Let's just end before it gets out of hand.

This is not twitter, we have a dedicated moderator. I trust that the people here can keep discussion civil, if not, Buranchi is a trustworthy mod.

 

[Lil meen]

People are selling jjk short on it's creativity. It also draws from multiple genres, and Akutami like Fujimoto is a big film buff and that influence also comes out in the dialog, imagery, characters and setpieces.
It's not just some generic battle manga.

That’s not what I meant. What I meant was that jujutsu is clearly mainly focused on battle considering the plot structure. Yes it does take elements of horror, comedy, and drama but not to the point to where those are the main plot focus. This is not me taking from it’s creativity because it is a creative BATTLE manga. Kind of like how other shonen has comedy, ecchi, and romance but there not the set genre. That’s like saying demon slayer is a comedy because it has comedic moments even though that is far from the case. Chainsawman however the set focus is the suspense, relationship between Denji and Makima, comedy, action, and horror. 2 completely different series that can’t really be compared. Comparing jujutsu to CSM is like comparing dragon ball to death note.

 

[ThunderStorm]

Just by curiosity. What popularity poll got you 'shocked'?
Mine would be Naruto Popularity Poll 6 where Deidara got 3rd place and Naruto was 4th.
Sister Krone appearing in Kimetsu no Yaiba poll was funny.

Nvm, Kobeni's car makes my list.
I love popularity polls for some weird reason.

 

[desu]

Hello, it's my first post here. I'm desu, desu.​

​

I think translations and timing affected both series negatively and positively. Manga+ was there just in time for when Chainsaw was some chapters in while Jujutsu got stuck into the Manga Editor hell till recently. Chainsaw seems to not have anything particularly difficult to translate, meanwhile, we're not even sure which term would suit the best among "jujutsushi", "jujutsu sorcerer", "jujutsu user", "sorcerer", "shaman", "spiritualist", etc. And this is only one (1) term. Jujutsu seems like a real pain to translate/localize. I believe it would be a lot easier to keep up with the power system — that isn't nearly as convoluted as people make it out to be — if, you know, terms didn't change all the time.​

 

[WyldViolet]

That’s not what I meant. What I meant was that jujutsu is clearly mainly focused on battle considering the plot structure. Yes it does take elements of horror, comedy, and drama but not to the point to where those are the main plot focus. This is not me taking from it’s creativity because it is a creative BATTLE manga. Kind of like how other shonen has comedy, ecchi, and romance but there not the set genre. That’s like saying demon slayer is a comedy because it has comedic moments even though that is far from the case. Chainsawman however the set focus is the suspense, relationship between Denji and Makima, comedy, action, and horror. 2 completely different series that can’t really be compared. Comparing jujutsu to CSM is like comparing dragon ball to death note.

I fail to see how jjk doesn't also do all those things. It's just not as in your face about it as chainsaw.
Also the dragon Ball vs death note comparison is wack. Jjk and chainsaw clearly have a lot of similarities as I've mentioned prior. They just go about things in different ways.

 

[Azure Warrior]

You know, I find it cool that we often have translators come here to speak about their experiences with manga.

 

[Rain Spectre]

Based on lurking and observation on places like reddit and twitter, I think a key factor that makes Chainsaw more liked is that it is easier to read and follow and the readers don't have to spend 5+ minutes looking at a wiki or asking someone what something means. There's tons of times where I've seen people forget what in-universe terms mean and I think the effort required to read or keep up is part of why I think Jujutsu doesn't have the same readership as Chainsaw. I could just be generalizing, but it seems most western manga readers like easy to read manga that doesn't use confusing/hard to remember terms, which many have said is a part of why Sam8 failed because no one cares about dozens of words/phrases that mean nothing to them.

Chainsaw has messy art, but the line work in general is still smoother and more clear than Jujutsu and therefore easier to parse. Both series have good depth with the tones and such compared to early Sam8, but I think the messy art in action from Jujutsu detracts from the experience from some readers I've seen in comments, where they say they can't tell what is happening.

Same thing people said about Kimetsu when it was less popular, people can't be bothered to try and parse "ugly" art, so they just assume it is a bad manga and don't read it unless it gets popular with an anime. I don't know how popular HxH in the west was before the anime, but Jujutsu is probably following that pattern of growth. Chainsaw is like Berserk/AoT with extreme violence and shocking factors so it clicks easier for western audience who likes mature manga, whereas Jujutsu is just seen as a "darker battle shonen" to most who've heard but not read it.

Also, places like reddit upvote most Chainsaw girl fanart to 3000+, so they're just going by "waifu culture" or whatever. Jujutsu's cast is predominantly male chars and the females aren't sexualized. Again, just generalizing based on my observations. I'm assuming people are discussing Chainsaw vs Jujutsu popularity or something. IDK, just my thoughts. I like both, Top 2 in Jump for me.

Samurai 8 from what I've observed read much worse in the original Japanese because of how Kishimoto spelt terminology. The line 武士じゃねえ侍だ、浪人だが for example reads like utter gibberish to JP readers, but is easier to understand translated because Western readers are more accepting to different definitions of already foreign terms, and most don't know "bushi" as another word for Samurai. Ditto for the frequent use of 散体 which the ENG just doesn't have to translate consistently.

 

[WyldViolet]

You know, I find it cool that we often have translators come here to speak about their experiences with manga.

That's one reason why this placed used to have so much built up credibility. Many translations were posted here, and much disucssion between those in the Edited Manga community were had.
However when the site got scrubbed of illegal content and we had a flood of new members due to our credibility a lot of that declined.

 

[Halloween]

Everyone knows I'm a huge CSM fan, but I haven't read enough of JJK to really weigh in on this debate.

I am reading everyone else's opinion on this, and I do find it pretty fascinating.

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2020, Original Post Date: May 29, 2020 ---

Actually, just asked a friend of mine on discord his opinion on this, since he reads both. He doesn't have a MH account, so I'll just post a screenshot of our conversation.

Would you guys agree with his points?

 

[WyldViolet]

Again, people selling jjk short. I think it strengthens my initial point that I think it's harder for people to see jjk's attempts at subversion, or experimentation due those elements being more subtly executed further amplified by running against chainsaw man which is so in your face in comparison.
Jjk certainly started as a textbook by the numbers battle Shonen, but Akutami didn't take long to start trying to do really unique things.

 

[Azure Warrior]

That is true, I do see some similarities between Nen and Spiritual Power in both universes.

 

[tirakai]

Yeah I'd agree that Jujutsu starts as HxH mixed with Bleach, but grows into its own thing well with its own twists on shounen standards.

It's a lot closer to regular battle shounen than Chainsawman of course, but something about it as it goes on feels quite off-kilter, like if you imagine MHA and Black Clover are a mostly straight line of battle shounen standards, Chainsawman is is an axe chopping the line to bits while Jujutsu is slyly twisting around it.

It's hard to say exactly why though, I'd need to read it again.