Fantasy Wendy vs. Lucy

[Axiomus]

You made a lot of assumptions, with Wendy doing nothing but getting beat up. Lucy could withstand the same attacks.

You're taking Kiria's moment too seriously, as it didn't take Lucy long to get up and get help.

Do you want to climb Wendy above Lucy based on how long she was beaten? Lucy was always resistant and the defensive methods I mentioned are ways to prolong the fight, I never said that they would be efficient (in the sense of guaranteeing a solid defense).

And resistance is not the only factor in a fight. There are other attributes to be analyzed.

Anyway, all Wendy's DF did was ...... nothing? She would be killed if it weren't for Irene.

She was able to tank a few hits and then return fire with a roar. That's better than simply getting oneshotted. Obviously Wendy would have lost if not for Irene's power, but she still did better against Nebal than Lucy did against Kyria.

Kyria can cut through Aqua Metria underwater and the star dress itself. She would cut right through Aquarius' barriers. Kyria was going easy on Lucy too, as she was shown to be able to oneshot her later on when she wanted to.

 

[Seven777]

I highly doubt if he came back he would be at that level.

I don't think he will come back, not unless somehow she finds a key for him or something

I don't think he'll be able to beat one, but he'll be able to match one, like he did to Mard.
I also doubt he'll come back, but i'm hoping. Lucy vs Tartaros is one of my top 3 favorite moments in the entire manga.

Of course it's relevant. It shows that Wendy in Dragon Force is on a different level than Lucy in Aquarius and Virgo star dress.

Horologium doesn't have any durability feats to suggest he can tank....well anything. His only real durability feat was against Uosuke, and Uosuke is fodder incarnate. Arcadios could walk through Uosuke's lava spell and he's not even a mage. He just had some protection from a jade necklace that Hisui gave him.

Aquarius barrier would have no effect. Kyria already cut through Aqua Metria and the star dress itself, and this was underwater. Nebal in Dragon Force should be stronger than Kyria. Skullion considers him capable of taking out FT members despite knowing Kyria was defeated. He would beat Lucy worse than Kyria did, and Kyria already oneshotted her.

Kyria beat Wendy just as easily as Lucy. Nebal also isn't stronger than any of the other DEs, Skullion simply wrote him off as a lost cause that could do some damage.

 

[Axiomus]

Kyria beat Wendy just as easily as Lucy. Nebal also isn't stronger than any of the other DEs, Skullion simply wrote him off as a lost cause that could do some damage.

Base Wendy.

Nebal is probably weaker when we factor in the other Dragon Eater's DF, but Skullion believes that Nebal can take down FT members despite knowing that Kyria and Wraith were defeated.

 

[Ramen]

I don't think he'll be able to beat one, but he'll be able to match one, like he did to Mard.
I also doubt he'll come back, but i'm hoping. Lucy vs Tartaros is one of my top 3 favorite moments in the entire manga

Well, big difference between a dragon that supposedly scales to Acnologia and Mard Geer.
Unles CSK has his own key or Lucy finds a way to summon without breaking a key then I doubt it

 

[Axiomus]

Wendy's roar was evenly matched with Nebal's roar.

Spoiler

Kyria's casual hand wave sliced right through Aqua Metria and destroyed the star dress.

Spoiler

Unless you want to argue that Kyria's casual hand wave is vastly stronger than Nebal's roar in dragon force, then Wendy's roar is simply better than Aqua Metria. If Nebal's roar is even anywhere close to the ballpark of Kyria's wave, even if it's weaker, Wendy would have the better showing here.

And if you really, really, reeeeaaalllly want to talk about defensive magics. Come at me when Lucy jumps infront of an attack meant for Erza.

Spoiler

 

[Ramen]

Wendy's roar was evenly matched with Nebal's roar.

Spoiler

Kyria's casual hand wave sliced right through Aqua Metria and destroyed the star dress.

Spoiler

Unless you want to argue that Kyria's casual hand wave is vastly stronger than Nebal's roar in dragon force, then Wendy's roar is simply better than Aqua Metria. If Nebal's roar is even anywhere close to the ballpark of Kyria's wave, even if it's weaker, Wendy would have the better showing here.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 13, 2020 ---

And if you reallly, really, reaaaaaalllly want to talk about defensive magics.

Spoiler

What are you trying to prove??

 

[Seven777]

Well, big difference between a dragon that supposedly scales to Acnologia and Mard Geer.
Unles CSK has his own key or Lucy finds a way to summon without breaking a key then I doubt it

Sure, but there is a big difference between Tartaros Lucy and Current Lucy too. Plus Lucy might get Yukino or Brandish to help her summon him or something, I'll take anything.
Like I said, it just what I hope for.

Base Wendy.

Nebal is probably weaker when we factor in the other Dragon Eater's DF, but Skullion believes that Nebal can take down FT members despite knowing that Kyria and Wraith were defeated.

Nah, Wendy went DF in that fight, she was trying as hard as Lucy was. The fact that she went back to base for some reason just in time to get oneshot doesn't really mean anything. If DF could've helped Wendy hold off Kyria, she would've got up and entered DF again.

I doubt it, he is probably weaker all around, I don't have him taking a Demo Fist from Natsu. As for Skullion's statement, it was about Wendy, and Skullion knew FT would've beat him too, just like Kyria and Wraith

 

[Axiomus]

What are you trying to prove??

Well initially I was just trying to get the point accross that Gemini copying DF Wendy isn't a given. Now I'm just straight up arguing that DF Wendy beats Aquarius and Virgo Stardress in durability and attack power.

Nah, Wendy went DF in that fight, she was trying as hard as Lucy was. The fact that she went back to base for some reason just in time to get oneshot doesn't really mean anything. If DF could've helped Wendy hold off Kyria, she would've got up and entered DF again.

I doubt it, he is probably weaker all around, I don't have him taking a Demo Fist from Natsu. As for Skullion's statement, it was about Wendy, and Skullion knew FT would've beat him too, just like Kyria and Wraith

She wasn't in Dragon Force when Kyria roared. Wendy actually shielded Erza with her own body too. She already took too much damage to get back up.

I actually think Nebal could give Natsu a pretty hard fight. It took Irene personally stepping in and all of her remaining power to beat Nebal. If Nebal can't tank a demolition fist, then I don't see base Kyria tanking a demolition fist either. Skullion didn't exactly know who his dragon eaters were fighting.

 

[Seven777]

Well initially I was just trying to get the point accross that Gemini copying DF Wendy isn't a given. Now I'm just straight up arguing that DF Wendy beats Star Dress in durability and attack power.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 13, 2020 ---

She wasn't in Dragon Force when Kyria roared. Wendy actually shielded Erza with her own body too.

Skullion didn't exactly know who his dragon eaters were fighting.

I know, like I said, if it would've made a difference she'd either be in DF when the attack hit, or have gotten up and used it.

I know, Mashima did.

 

[Axiomus]

I know, like I said, if it would've made a difference she'd either be in DF when the attack hit, or have gotten up and used it.

I know, Mashima did.

She already sustained too much damage to get back up.

Sure. Mashima knew that Nebal was fighting Wendy, but Skullion didn't. My argument is that Skullion holds Nebal's dragon force in higher regards than he holds Wraith and Kyria, because he actually has confidence he can kill some FT members despite knowing Kyria and Wraith can't.

 

[Seven777]

She already sustained too much damage to get back up.

Sure. Mashima knew that Nebal was fighting Wendy, but Skullion didn't. My argument is that Skullion holds Nebal's dragon force in higher regards than he holds Wraith and Kyria, because he actually has confidence he can kill some FT members despite knowing Kyria and Wraith can't.

That's really not a thing in FT, they can always get back up if they have more to give. Besides, if it would've made a difference she'd be in it in the first place.

Not really, it just means he thinks he's capable of defeating FT members, not that he'd be able to beat the FT members that beat Kyria and Wraith. He also has no idea whether or not Kyria and Wraith beat any members of FT before going down, all he knows is that they went down, something that he knew would happen to Nebal too.

 

[Axiomus]

That's really not a thing in FT, they can always get back up if they have more to give. Besides, if it would've made a difference she'd be in it in the first place.

Not really, it just means he thinks he's capable of defeating FT members, not that he'd be able to beat the FT members that beat Kyria and Wraith. He also has no idea whether or not Kyria and Wraith beat any members of FT before going down, all he knows is that they went down, something that he knew would happen to Nebal too.

Sure it is. When Zero defeated team Natsu, everyone had more to give. But it wasn't until much later that they got back up.

Well what else is his reference point? Most Fairy Tail members that he knows are people that he can't easily beat. He knows Natsu can overpower Madmole. He knows Erza can beat Kyria. He also knows Kyria and Wraith were defeated. And he knows that Mirajane and Elfman are hard to go down. Besides, I don't need Nebal to be stronger than Kyria, or even on the same level. He can even be weaker than her. So long as his DF roar is anywhere even in the same ballpark of Kyria's casual hand wave, Wendy's roar still scales to above Aqua Metria.

 

[Seven777]

Sure it is. When Zero defeated team Natsu, everyone had more to give. But it wasn't until much later that they got back up.

Well what else is his reference point? Most Fairy Tail members that he knows are people that he can't easily beat. He knows Natsu can overpower Madmole. He knows Erza can beat Kyria. He also knows Kyria and Wraith were defeated. And he knows that Mirajane and Elfman are hard to go down. Besides, I don't need Nebal to be stronger than Kyria, or even on the same level. He can even be weaker than her. So long as his DF roar is anywhere even in the same ballpark of Kyria's casual hand wave, Wendy's roar still scales to above Aqua Metria.

By that logic Lucy also had more to give against Kyria to, she didn't even use her spirits, not that I really buy that either. What you're arguing right now is pretty much just saying that Wendy's defeat was PiS, and to me PiS is just an excuse. I'm not going to assume a character could perform better just because they had an ability they could've used but didn't. It's like saying Sting could've done better against Larcade with Dragon Force or that Mirajane would've smacked Skullion, his mother, and the rest of the FT-verse if she didn't stay in Base Satan Soul all the time, etc. At the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference. The character lost/won a fight with whatever difficulty because that's their overall strength, unless there was an actual reason for them to hold back.
I rambled a bit there I know, but I've been meaning to get this out there for a while now.

Not really. Skullion saw Lisanna and Lucy, he low diffed Gray, he fought Wendy, Skullion knows plenty of FT members he can easily beat. In fact the only ones he's met that he can't are Natsu, Erza, Mira and maybe Elfman. In fact he didn't even know if the reason FT beat Kyria and Wraith was because they had numbers or because they were strong.
Also now that I think about it Skullion knew that Wendy was the one Nebal was fighting, so yeah.

 

[Axiomus]

By that logic Lucy also had more to give against Kyria to, she didn't even use her spirits, not that I really buy that either. What you're arguing right now is pretty much just saying that Wendy's defeat was PiS, and to me PiS is just an excuse. I'm not going to assume a character could perform better just because they had an ability they could've used but didn't. It's like saying Sting could've done better against Larcade with Dragon Force or that Mirajane would've smacked Skullion, his mother, and the rest of the FT-verse if she didn't stay in Base Satan Soul all the time, etc. At the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference. The character lost/won a fight with whatever difficulty because that's their overall strength, unless there was an actual reason for them to hold back.
I rambled a bit there I know, but I've been meaning to get this out there for a while now.

Not really. Skullion saw Lisanna and Lucy, he low diffed Gray, he fought Wendy, Skullion knows plenty of FT members he can easily beat. In fact the only ones he's met that he can't are Natsu, Erza, Mira and maybe Elfman. In fact he didn't even know if the reason FT beat Kyria and Wraith was because they had numbers or because they were strong.
Also now that I think about it Skullion knew that Wendy was the one Nebal was fighting, so yeah.

Sure. But her spirits aren't stronger than her Aquarius star dress in general. I would buy the argument that Lucy could have done better with her star dress mix though. Sting would have indeed done better than base if he used Dragon Force, though WSD mode basically eclipses dragon force as it causes him to dragonize. Mirajane doing better than Skullion with a stronger form is also a legitimate argument imo.

I don't believe that Wendy's defeat was PIS. I believe that she was defeated in a weaker form, and would do better in a stronger form. Kyria might very well still beat her. But would she oneshot her? If Wendy put up the same barrier she used to defend against Irene's blast, would Kyria just oneshot her anyways? Probably not.

Well if Skullion thinks Nebal can beat Gray, that still works for me. I mean surely he knows Nebal can already beat Lisanna, base Wendy, and Lucy without dragon force. Nebal already mopped up half the members in the guild before even meeting Wendy. Just how weaker do you think Nebal is compared to base Kyria?

 

[Seven777]

Sure. But her spirits aren't stronger than her Aquarius star dress in general. I would buy the argument that Lucy could have done better with her star dress mix though. Sting would have indeed done better than base if he used Dragon Force, though WSD mode basically eclipses dragon force as it causes him to dragonize. Mirajane doing better than Skullion with a stronger form is also a legitimate argument imo.

I don't believe that Wendy's defeat was PIS. I believe that she was defeated in a weaker form, and would do better in a stronger form. Kyria might very well still beat her. But would she oneshot her? If Wendy put up the same barrier she used to defend against Irene's blast, would Kyria just oneshot her anyways? Probably not.

Well if Skullion thinks Nebal can beat Gray, that still works for me. I mean surely he knows Nebal can already beat Lisanna, base Wendy, and Lucy without dragon force. Nebal already mopped up half the members in the guild before even meeting Wendy. Just how weaker do you think Nebal is compared to base Kyria?

Says who? Supposedly Star Dresses only provide a little of the spirits power, besides Lucy can summon two spirits and up.
Then why didn't he? Why has Sting and Rogue not used Dragon Force since GMG? He supposedly has the "true" Dragon Force. Was he and Rogue just too powerful for Jiemma for them to bother going all out? Historia Bloodman too weak to waste it on? While we're at it we might as well question all the poor performances we've seen in the manga. Acnologia, no DF from anyone, no modes from anyone, could they have done better? Either it's PiS or it doesn't make a difference.

Wendy was in DF and then left it only to get oneshot, according to you she would've still been standing if she hadn't done that. How is that not arguing PiS?

Neball was a pretty even match for Wendy without Dragon Force, so I doubt he's beating anyone but Lisanna. There's also considerations of DF Nebal's later stages, which I assume Skullion knows about. Who knows how far Nebal would've come after what we saw? Skullion likely was considering Nebal's later stages of DF considering his distress, he might've even been thinking of his completed DF, he should've seen that he was only facing Wendy at the time so it's not like anyone would've stopped him.
For Kyria vs DF Nebal. Let's say Kyria is a 6, DF Nebal is a 4 or 5

 

[Axiomus]

Says who? Supposedly Star Dresses only provide a little of the spirits power, besides Lucy can summon two spirits and up.
Then why didn't he? Why has Sting and Rogue not used Dragon Force since GMG? He supposedly has the "true" Dragon Force. Was he and Rogue just too powerful for Jiemma for them to bother going all out? Historia Bloodman too weak to waste it on? While we're at it we might as well question all the poor performances we've seen in the manga. Acnologia, no DF from anyone, no modes from anyone, could they have done better? Either it's PiS or it doesn't make a difference.

Wendy was in DF and then left it only to get oneshot, according to you she would've still been standing if she hadn't done that. How is that not arguing PiS?

Neball was a pretty even match for Wendy without Dragon Force, so I doubt he's beating anyone but Lisanna. There's also considerations of DF Nebal's later stages, which I assume Skullion knows about. Who knows how far Nebal would've come after what we saw? Skullion likely was considering Nebal's later stages of DF considering his distress, he might've even been thinking of his completed DF, he should've seen that he was only facing Wendy at the time so it's not like anyone would've stopped him.
For Kyria vs DF Nebal. Let's say Kyria is a 6, DF Nebal is a 4 or 5

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Because Lucy simply has better feats with her star dresses than with her spirits. Aquarius cannot defeat Jackal, and Lucy in her star dress can. Loke and Virgo cannot hit anywhere near as hard as Star Dress mix. Lucy tends to have better feats with her star dresses than the spirits themselves.

Why didn't Sting use Dragon Force against Larcade? Because WSD dragonized him anyway. Sting has the same scales that they have in their DF with WSD mode, so I've always just assumed that his WSD mode was Dragon Force. As for the poor performances against Acnologia. I honestly don't believe any modes or DF would have made a difference against him. He probably would have beaten Natsu in his 7 flame mode if Fairy Sphere hadn't frozen him. I mean call it PIS if you want, but that's the way the fight played out. Wendy wasn't in Dragon Force when Kyria oneshotted her. If you believe that Kyria would have still oneshotted Wendy in DF, that's fine. Then that just means both Wendy and Lucy are so weak that it's virtually impossible to scale them based off any of their feats against the current enemies. In which case, I don't really have an interest in who wins since they're both effectively fodders.

Fair enough on Nebal's progression. Do you believe Nebal's roar is at least within the same ballpark as Kyria's casual hand wave?

 

[Seven777]

.
Because Lucy simply has better feats with her star dresses than with her spirits. Aquarius cannot defeat Jackal, and Lucy in her star dress can. Loke and Virgo cannot hit anywhere near as hard as Star Dress mix. Lucy tends to have better feats with her star dresses than the spirits themselves.

Why didn't Sting use Dragon Force against Larcade? Because WSD dragonized him anyway. Sting has the same scales that they have in their DF with WSD mode, so I've always just assumed that his WSD mode was Dragon Force. As for the poor performances against Acnologia. I honestly don't believe any modes or DF would have made a difference against him. He probably would have beaten Natsu in his 7 flame mode if Fairy Sphere hadn't frozen him. I mean call it PIS if you want, but that's the way the fight played out. Wendy wasn't in Dragon Force when Kyria oneshotted her. If you believe that Kyria would have still oneshotted Wendy in DF, that's fine. Then that just means both Wendy and Lucy are so weak that it's virtually impossible to scale them based off any of their feats against the current enemies. In which case, I don't really have an interest in who wins since they're both effectively fodders.

Fair enough on Nebal's progression. Do you believe Nebal's roar is at least within the same ballpark as Kyria's casual hand wave?

Loke going a round with Elfman and socking Jacob in the kisser impresses me more than any Star Dress bar the Mix. Didn't you say that the Aquarius Star Dress ain't as good anymore? Besides, the power she gained as she worked to acquire that ability naturally would have boosted her spirits much higher than their Tartaros selves.

No, why didn't Sting use DF against Jiemma? Jiemma too weak? But yes, also Larcade, he was on his last legs before Rogue showed up and he still didn't use it.
Yeah, that's the way the fight played out, my mindset exactly. I'm fine with saying characters can do better on round 2s, but I'm not going to scale a totally different, otherwise featless opponent to that possibly better performance before it even happens. Nebal as it stands is featless outside his fight with Wendy, and I'm sorry but oneshot, twoshot, threeshot, whatever, soloing Lucy and Wendy at the same time impresses me much more than soloing Wendy, even if I were to assume she was performing better in that fight.

Probably, but Nebal's roar did literally the same thing to Wendy's roar as Kyria's hand wave did to Aqua Metria, so I still don't see why I should scale Wendy's roar higher. And even if I did, Lucy has more spirits she can summon to add to her damage output.

 

[grey matter]

Lucy defeated Jackal before he transformed.
Also, I think it's because CSK kinda powered her up in her first start dress. Her star-dresses later didn't prove that big of a boost

 

[Axiomus]

Loke going a round with Elfman and socking Jacob in the kisser impresses me more than any Star Dress bar the Mix. Didn't you say that the Aquarius Star Dress ain't as good anymore? Besides, the power she gained as she worked to acquire that ability naturally would have boosted her spirits much higher than their Tartaros selves.

No, why didn't Sting use DF against Jiemma? Jiemma too weak? But yes, also Larcade, he was on his last legs before Rogue showed up and he still didn't use it.
Yeah, that's the way the fight played out, my mindset exactly. I'm fine with saying characters can do better on round 2s, but I'm not going to scale a totally different, otherwise featless opponent to that possibly better performance before it even happens. Nebal as it stands is featless outside his fight with Wendy, and I'm sorry but oneshot, twoshot, threeshot, whatever, soloing Lucy and Wendy at the same time impresses me much more than soloing Wendy, even if I were to assume she was performing better in that fight.

Probably, but Nebal's roar did literally the same thing to Wendy's roar as Kyria's hand wave did to Aqua Metria, so I still don't see why I should scale Wendy's roar higher. And even if I did, Lucy has more spirits she can summon to add to her damage output.

Loke didn't even touch Elfman. The Lucy kick that Lucy did with Loke's star dress was more impressive than Loke's punch. I don't see any of her spirits as hitting harder than Aqua Metria right now. I've changed my mind on Aquarius star dress not being as good anymore because of Virgo's statement. I'm not really seeing much of a difference for her spirits from Tartaros to Alvarez, or now. I'm sure they are stronger, but I can honestly barely tell.

Well last time Sting met Jiemma, he blasted a hole in him in base. So yeah....they might have thought Jiemma was too weak. He was weak because Larcade's hunger drained him of strength, and using Dragon Force would have just used up more power. I just don't see why dragon force wouldn't be considered. Dragon force offers a physical transformation, so I can't see how it wouldn't affect someone's performance in durability and physical strength.

Nebal's roar and Wendy's roar was evenly matched. Kyria's hand wave cut through Aqua Metria and destroyed the star dress. If Nebal's roar did what Kyria's wave did, then he would have overpowered Wendy and knocked her out of dragon force.

 

[Seven777]

Loke didn't even touch Elfman. The Lucy kick that Lucy did with Loke's star dress was more impressive than Loke's punch. I don't see any of her spirits as hitting harder than Aqua Metria right now. I've changed my mind on Aquarius star dress not being as good anymore because of Virgo's statement. I'm not really seeing much of a difference for her spirits from Tartaros to Alvarez, or now. I'm sure they are stronger, but I can honestly barely tell.

Well last time Sting met Jiemma, he blasted a hole in him in base. So yeah....they might have thought Jiemma was too weak. He was weak because Larcade's hunger drained him of strength, and using Dragon Force would have just used up more power. I just don't see why modes wouldn't be considered. Especially dragon force. Dragon force offers a physical transformation, so I can't see how it wouldn't affect someone's performance in durability and physical strength.

Nebal's roar and Wendy's roar was evenly matched. Kyria's hand wave cut through Aqua Metria and destroyed the star dress. If Nebal's roar did what Kyria's wave did, then he would have overpowered Wendy and knocked her out of dragon force.

Stayed in the fight for a long time though, and unlike Mira Elfman was trying. Lucy's Lucy Kick was combined with Natsu's. On his own Loke de-stealthed Jacob, staggered him with light and smacked him in the mouth leaving a nice bruise. Aqua Metria has size, but not much more really. Even if Aquarius Dress is as good as before, Lucy was hitting with Urano Metria back then, that's not the same, in fact I'd say it's vastly different.

So a demon stronger than the 9 was too weak for Sting and Rogue to go all out? If you say so.
I'm not saying modes shouldn't be considered(I kinda am), I'm saying just because a certain ability isn't used, doesn't mean the character isn't doing their best. There's a long list of fights that would change if certain abilities were used, generally I assume if Mashima decides not to use them then they don't make a difference, unless there is some reason revealed later.

Evenly matched? That's interesting, do you think Wendy has equal offense to Nebal then? Or do you just consider his regular punches the superior attacks?Kyria's attack didn't damage Lucy, it cut her clothes, not really the same thing as knocking someone out of Dragon Force, and likI said Lucy has more spirits to add to her damage output. Not that I have a problem with Kyria overpowering Lucy, she's the more powerful character, why wouldn't she be able to overpower Lucy?