What do you think of IN?

[hgfdsahjkl]

in the advanced form of zetsu i can understand that with zetsu you could hide your aura because you close the pores in your body but how is it possible to hide your aura when it`s out in the air may be i am overthinking it but i just cant swallow it in a sense why would a pro nen user like ubo drop gyo .i know how kurapica fooled him blah blah but still it doesnt make sense to drop gyo it leaves a bad taste in what you could call a fantastic fight

 

[Mylesime]

Re: what do you think of in

I think taht the fact that you are neglecting is that using "gyo" prevent you to protect yourself with "ken" or even "ren".
Basically you have to take the risk , a big risk, it depends on the thing you judge the more important, finding new datas, confirming your opponent abilities and tactics, or defend yourself with efficiency. I think taht we tend to overlook the jeopardy that goes with "gyo", using it with the eyes doesn't change the outcome, concentrating more aura on one part of the body expose the rest of the body.
Concerning the "in", i don't know what to say, that's a principle.

 

[hgfdsahjkl]

Re: what do you think of in

I think taht the fact that you are neglecting is that using "gyo" prevent you to protect yourself with "ken" or even "ren".
Basically you have to take the risk , a big risk, it depends on the thing you judge the more important, finding new datas, confirming your opponent abilities and tactics, or defend yourself with efficiency. I think taht we tend to overlook the jeopardy that goes with "gyo", using it with the eyes doesn't change the outcome, concentrating more aura on one part of the body expose the rest of the body.
Concerning the "in", i don't know what to say, that's a principle.

yeah,yeah my main point isn't about gyo however you could use varying degrees of gyo,you still could use ken or ren with it
however I brought it up to point my dislike of that part

I don't like the In

-zetsu is the principle,In is the advance technique and In just doesn't follow the same logic

like ken is to ren or shu to ten

 

[Mylesime]

Re: what do you think of in

Concerning "gyo", i don't know about "ten" but it definitely can't be used with "ken" or "ren" at the same time . You can't generate a balanced and maximum amount of aura apportioned equally on your whole body, while concentrating a majority of it on a specific part, that seems logic, like with these pictures
http://www.mangareader.net/207-14063-13/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-54.html
http://www.mangareader.net/207-14091-17/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-82.html
Concerning "in" , I see that as something similar with what Pito did to not oppress , to not make Meruem uncomfortable. Something like, containing your aura in a defined area, blocking or even eliminating the emission of aura toward the opponent from whence the meaning of the fact that this is explained as zetsu advance technique.

 

[Sea Hunter]

Re: what do you think of in

in the advanced form of zetsu i can understand that with zetsu you could hide your aura because you close the pores in your body but how is it possible to hide your aura when it`s out in the air may be i am overthinking it but i just cant swallow it in a sense why would a pro nen user like ubo drop gyo .i know how kurapica fooled him blah blah but still it doesnt make sense to drop gyo it leaves a bad taste in what you could call a fantastic fight

You hide your aura with In, but with Zetsu you keep it inside your body without allowing any of it out, both are very different techniques.

 

[Tame]

Re: what do you think of in

I agree that they're very different to each other, but In is, according to canon, the advanced form of Zetsu (though I can't be bothered to find the page where it says that, so feel free to disbelieve me. :P). However, I don't think that is borne out by the facts; you shut off your aura nodes to stop aura leaking out - that's Zetsu.

However, In involves hiding other objects or nen. Let's take the example of Kurapika's chains; what exactly is involved it make them invisible? If In is an extension of Zetsu, then wouldn't that mean he has to close the aura nodes on the chains? I'm pretty sure the chains don't have aura nodes... If anyone has a better justification, though, I'd like to hear it; I may be misinterpreting the term "advanced form".

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Re: what do you think of in

I agree that they're very different to each other, but In is, according to canon, the advanced form of Zetsu (though I can't be bothered to find the page where it says that, so feel free to disbelieve me. :P). However, I don't think that is borne out by the facts; you shut off your aura nodes to stop aura leaking out - that's Zetsu.

However, In involves hiding other objects or nen. Let's take the example of Kurapika's chains; what exactly is involved it make them invisible? If In is an extension of Zetsu, then wouldn't that mean he has to close the aura nodes on the chains? I'm pretty sure the chains don't have aura nodes... If anyone has a better justification, though, I'd like to hear it; I may be misinterpreting the term "advanced form".

I hope this helps, but Machi used Zetsu on her thread to keep track of the vehicle Kurapika was in.

So I guess it is pretty possible to 'wrap' things in a layer of In or Zetsu. With Zetsu you make the thing barely perceptible. With In you make the thing invisible and imperceptible. En can be used to detect things hidden with both In and Zetsu. Gyo can also be used to detect things hidden with In.

 

[HiggsBoson]

Re: what do you think of in

I hope this helps, but Machi used Zetsu on her thread to keep track of the vehicle Kurapika was in.

So I guess it is pretty possible to 'wrap' things in a layer of In or Zetsu. With Zetsu you make the thing barely perceptible. With In you make the thing invisible and imperceptible. En can be used to detect things hidden with both In and Zetsu. Gyo can also be used to detect things hidden with In.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I think OP basically got confused. So far, the only connecting factor I can think of between Zetsu and In is the concept of invisibility or impercievability. It doesn't necessarily mean that in order to be  hidden or concealed, you have to close the nodes in order to do so. Closing the nodes is the actual physiologic change that one must allow to happen in orderto be invisible to other nen users.  Thats all there is. But it does not define the concept of Zetsu or In.

Ren, Ten, Zetsu and Hatsu are the 4 nen training concepts.
In the 2011 intro's (english subtitled). The 4 concepts of Nen are translated as:
Ten - Shroud
Ren - Enhance
Zetsu- Null
Hatsu - Act

Again... Hatsu... ACT.
As we all know this leads to all different kinds intricasies/applications/gibberish just to get the official concept of Hatsu (To act). For example, some people like Gon uses all Ten, Ren, and Null to get this effect. Some people like to change their aura into bubblegum or electricity or conjure chains. Some people like to call a ghost writer to write prophecies. Some people like to steal other peoples Nen. All of these fall within concept of Hatsu (Act).

In the same extent. When one says Zetsu (Null/Conceal), it doesnt necessarily encapsulates everything with the concept of "Turn Nodes: ON and Turn Nodes: OFF." It just simply means as the translations suggest - to Null and Conceal. Being able to recover from fatigue and heal yourself faster is just the bonus. 

Now "In" is the advanced application of Zetsu (null). It's the same concept but just an application. Just like how En is the application of both Ren and Ten. "In" is part of the many nen applications like Gyo, Shu, En, Ko, Ken etc...
http://h-x-h.wikia.com/wiki/Nen

And I do understand the confusion. Example of people that were shown to use "In" were Hisoka, Machi, Kurapika and Bomb devil. And the thing is, it wasn't properly explained in the manga nor data books how people achieve "In" and conceal their aura. We can only speculate. Seriously. It sucks. I know. The only thing we were given was node shutting and the use of En or Gyo to detect concealed aura.

In isn't very well polished in my opinion.

I think Togashi was shooting for these concepts as a whole rather than the technical or physiologic aspects of attaining it. The confusion is normal since we're not really given a lot of validation to begin with.

Hope this helps.

 

[kkck]

I have to say that in does not make much sense to me as a whole. Zetsu is basically stopping the flow of aura out of your body completely or almost completely. You use it to hide your presence by not having any aura around you, not even the measly amount normal people leak all the time. In many forms using zetsu is actually doing nothing at all in terms of nen. It is a state where there is no nen activity going on. In this regard, how do you apply this for in? kurapica used in to hide his chain from uvo however that does not seem coherent. Ok, his chain is materialized but that only makes things more confusing. If his chain was surrounded by nen then anything akin to zetsu would force nen inside the chain. Even if nen is hidden it doe snot explain why the chain would be invisible to uvo. Now, the situation is even worst for things made of actual nen. If something is nen then using in in the way I described would not help. You would basically be forcing nen into the nen based object however the nen based object would still be made of nen and not invisible. Anyways, in as an application of zetsu does not make sense. Supressing aura (zetsu) to hide your presence makes a lot of sense but an application of this seems implausible.

 

[HiggsBoson]

I can totally see what you're saying.

It's like zetsu node shunting is very different from having nen surround your body but make it INVISIBLE without closing the nodes, which is basically what IN is... aura that is invisible without node shunting/closing.

Therefore, In being an application of Zetsu makes no freakin sense at all. Since other applications, in some way or form, is connected to main concepts.

In should altogether be another concept itself.
As i said though, the only thing relatively connecting IN and ZETSU together is NULL. But IN as advance application of Zetsu is juts... no... just no..

 

[XXGenesis]

I have to say that in does not make much sense to me as a whole. Zetsu is basically stopping the flow of aura out of your body completely or almost completely. You use it to hide your presence by not having any aura around you, not even the measly amount normal people leak all the time. In many forms using zetsu is actually doing nothing at all in terms of nen. It is a state where there is no nen activity going on. In this regard, how do you apply this for in? kurapica used in to hide his chain from uvo however that does not seem coherent. Ok, his chain is materialized but that only makes things more confusing. If his chain was surrounded by nen then anything akin to zetsu would force nen inside the chain. Even if nen is hidden it doe snot explain why the chain would be invisible to uvo. Now, the situation is even worst for things made of actual nen. If something is nen then using in in the way I described would not help. You would basically be forcing nen into the nen based object however the nen based object would still be made of nen and not invisible. Anyways, in as an application of zetsu does not make sense. Supressing aura (zetsu) to hide your presence makes a lot of sense but an application of this seems implausible.

IN make's a Nen fight that much difficult for us to understand. But it makes sense. IN hides your projected aura making it invisible unless you focus a decent amount of Nen into your eyes...Gyo should be used in certain or simply any fight you get into time to time, just to be sure the Opponent isn't using IN trying to capture or surprise you with anything.

Kurapica beat Uvo because he leaves his conjured chains on and People believe they are real and that he's a manipulator. With that assumption that doesn't leave him with anything to hide rlly... A Conjurer can take advantage of IN hiding items they created and being able to surprise their opponent gaining the advantage. Emitter's also have good use of using IN to hide their Aura or transmutter's like Hisoka can hide his Bungee Gum stretching out to you or it simply being attached to you. So IN isn't stupid it's smart, Gyo is what's stupid because we don't see many Ppl use it as often as they should be.

 

[mousiehamster]

Meh, can't believe that an experienced fighter like Uvo didn't use Gyo. Should've known something was fishy when Kurapica tanked a reinforced punch as a manipulator. Good rule of thumb in the universe of HxH is to use Gyo when something inexplicable happens. In fact, first thing you do in a fight is to activate Gyo. There are just too few rules for Nen and people come up with all sorts of strange abilities with strange conditions. I personally think the Nen system is too wide in HxH and runs the risk of making a lot of fights a crap shoot. Probably pure Enhancers have it worst since they have no special ability and they typically have to close to defeat the opposition

 

[XXGenesis]

Meh, can't believe that an experienced fighter like Uvo didn't use Gyo. Should've known something was fishy when Kurapica tanked a reinforced punch as a manipulator. Good rule of thumb in the universe of HxH is to use Gyo when something inexplicable happens. In fact, first thing you do in a fight is to activate Gyo. There are just too few rules for Nen and people come up with all sorts of strange abilities with strange conditions. I personally think the Nen system is too wide in HxH and runs the risk of making a lot of fights a crap shoot. Probably pure Enhancers have it worst since they have no special ability and they typically have to close to defeat the opposition

Yea I like the whole almost random toss up for a match but The Nen system is a bit too wide. Uvo Definitely should have used Gyo from the start..His defeat was plot induced, Togashi covers this up by having the Spiders mention he fights better when he's protecting somebody and fails to think everything through when on his own..Which unsettling because we seen how he was analyzing and tested Kurapicka's chain with the crushed can....Kurapicka is also tricky to keep his item materialized to confuse Ppl into thinking the chain is a real and wouldn't have any conditions around it.

 

[Uriel]

I think that Togashi didn't have wrapped up the whole Nen System until Greed Island. That's why there are some holes in power levels and how some experienced users ended making newbies mistakes.

In this case, Uvo not using Gyo was utterly n00b.

 

[Phantron]

I think that Togashi didn't have wrapped up the whole Nen System until Greed Island. That's why there are some holes in power levels and how some experienced users ended making newbies mistakes.

In this case, Uvo not using Gyo was utterly n00b.

Gyo existed at the time of the fight. We're not talking about techniques that didn't exist at the time of the fighting.

I'm guessing originally In is supposed to be an integral part of the fight and then Togashi eventually realized that if you didn't use Gyo you would probably die the moment you fight anyone who isn't a Reinforcement user because literally every tech besidse Reinforcement-based tech can be hidden by In so we don't see In/Gyo anymore. Gyo is clearly assumed to be simply 'always on'.

 

[Uriel]

That's what I mean. And that's why Biscuit made emphasis on it. Gyo in the eyes is a must every move they make. That's why Nippon had Kuroro warning the girls while running and Madhouse, knowing this, made it automatic... as it should be in every fight.

 

[mousiehamster]

Ubo losing to Kurapica just because Emperor Time gives him 100% reinforcement is also BS imo.

 

[Phantron]

Ubo losing to Kurapica just because Emperor Time gives him 100% reinforcement is also BS imo.

Emperor Time still doesn't make up the innate difference. As explained in the same arc when using unfamiliar school you take a double penalty, i.e. if Kurapika is level 10 at Materialization, he can only use level 4 Emission at 40% of level 4, and Emperor Time allows him to do level 4 Emission at 100% but it's still level 4. Likewise this means normally he could use level 6 Reinforcement at 60% on the same scale, and Emperor Time gives him level 6 at 100% instead. Ubogin at 20-50% did not do any damage to him, but assuming both are equal level then that implies he's using something like 50% of level 10 and assuming levels are purely linear, that should be less than 100% of level 6. For the 100% of level 10, namely the Big Bang, Kurapika avoided the direct hit and still broke his arm from blocking.

Without Emperor Time Kurapika most likely can't even withstand 50% of Ubogin's power (that'd be 60% of level 6, i.e. 36% of level 10 assuming a linear scale). Originally, Materialization/Manipulation is pretty much grossly outclassed by Reinforcement (that's why Kurapika wants to be a Reinforcement user type), because you're looking at situation where a Reinforcement like Ubogin can simply use 50% and save 50% to react to any emergencies, and you still can't even take a hit from them head on so you'd probably just get completely owned in any fight.

 

[XXGenesis]

I think that Togashi didn't have wrapped up the whole Nen System until Greed Island. That's why there are some holes in power levels and how some experienced users ended making newbies mistakes.

In this case, Uvo not using Gyo was utterly n00b.

Nah, IN hides Nen, Uvo assumed Kurapicka's Chains were real chains he was manipulating.

If anything it makes Kurapicka's growth unbelievable that he learned all the basic and advance Technique's so fast even if Gon and Killua had stopped their training. He shouldn't be that skilled with Nen or already mastered his Hatsu.

I'm guessing originally In is supposed to be an integral part of the fight and then Togashi eventually realized that if you didn't use Gyo you would probably die the moment you fight anyone who isn't a Reinforcement user because literally every tech besidse Reinforcement-based tech can be hidden by In so we don't see In/Gyo anymore. Gyo is clearly assumed to be simply 'always on'.

Yea I assumed the same that it's a technique that Nen users use but we wouldn't be told all the time. Biscuit trained Gon and Killua to use Gyo however when battling Nen users to see their hidden abilities they could be hiding......I didn't read the manga until Chimera arc but in the anime Chrollo tells Shizuku and Machi to use Gyo and keep it on when he approached Kurapicka and Gon when they ere chasing the Spiders.

 

[Uriel]

Emperor Time still doesn't make up the innate difference. As explained in the same arc when using unfamiliar school you take a double penalty, i.e. if Kurapika is level 10 at Materialization, he can only use level 4 Emission at 40% of level 4, and Emperor Time allows him to do level 4 Emission at 100% but it's still level 4. Likewise this means normally he could use level 6 Reinforcement at 60% on the same scale, and Emperor Time gives him level 6 at 100% instead. Ubogin at 20-50% did not do any damage to him, but assuming both are equal level then that implies he's using something like 50% of level 10 and assuming levels are purely linear, that should be less than 100% of level 6. For the 100% of level 10, namely the Big Bang, Kurapika avoided the direct hit and still broke his arm from blocking.

Without Emperor Time Kurapika most likely can't even withstand 50% of Ubogin's power (that'd be 60% of level 6, i.e. 36% of level 10 assuming a linear scale). Originally, Materialization/Manipulation is pretty much grossly outclassed by Reinforcement (that's why Kurapika wants to be a Reinforcement user type), because you're looking at situation where a Reinforcement like Ubogin can simply use 50% and save 50% to react to any emergencies, and you still can't even take a hit from them head on so you'd probably just get completely owned in any fight.

Ahhh this discussion again. I missed it :3 That if you believe that levels are capped. I still believe they don't.
And percentages indicates how much it costs to learn. For Kurapika, it's meaningless since He learned quickly He was specialization and that his ability allowed him to use all the Hatsus at 100%

---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 AM ----------

Nah, IN hides Nen, Uvo assumed Kurapicka's Chains were real chains he was manipulating.
If anything it makes Kurapicka's growth unbelievable that he learned all the basic and advance Technique's so fast even if Gon and Killua had stopped their training. He shouldn't be that skilled with Nen or already mastered his Hatsu.

That's true, but that where Togashi put the oath and restriction into play...Which is a powerful tool. You can make a technique without rules and stuff, but it would consider you considerably more time to develop it as you want it.