Discussion Which group is the strongest?

[Uriel]

So scary powerful that they were curb stomped by Akainu off-panel.

Now, don't get me wrong. Iva-chan and the others are certainly plenty strong - but they are a far cry from the top dogs of the One Piece universe.

We all know Aikanu is one of the final fights. Emotionally and because it's own strength. Remember that Admirals are not weaker than Sengoku, that's just the administrative and experience tittle but we're talking about the top tier fighting in the Marine. It's OBVIOUS they wont defeat him, but that doesn't mean He's weak or not on the top dogs. I would say He's in the top 20, not in the top 5 (With this I mean it's Elite, but not that kind of elite)

...Anyway, that doesn't exclude the "SCARY" powerful part. And you seem to avoided Kuma.

Correction: we know Kuma and Iva are powerful, I'd leave the rating of "SCARY powerful" for fighters that it's hard to imagine them losing (i.e. the admirals, Shanks, etc).

And being the most wanted man in the world is not a direct indication of power. Don't get me wrong, I did say I believe Dragon is most likely comparable in power to Yonkou captains (i.e. Shanks), however he is the most wanted man because he directly opposes the government in open revolution with a sizable force.

And yes, though I agree Dragon isn't going for open warfare on the government and trying to garner support and liberate certain areas first, I believe my point still holds true. If they were stronger, the revolutionaries would hold a larger majority of the world and be a "rival government", not "revolutionaries".

Then again, most of the reason I think RA cannot be the strongest group is for plot reasons. If RA is filled with fighters stronger than what we've seen of the marines and Yonkou thus far, then who exactly is Luffy trying to surpass again? Would kind of ruin the last few hundred chapters of established plot devices.

And by your "strongest introduced later" logic, Jinbe is the strongest Shichibukai and Mihawk is the weakest? Sure, as a story progresses, the general level of introduced persons is higher. But the strongest? Blackbeard, Smoker and Mihawk would like some serious words with you =P

So we're using different terms. :/ Scary powerful is not (at least IMHO) unbeaten fighters as I see it. Ace was scary powerful and was beaten lot of times and reached death by Aikanu. Which doesn't mean His power were not scary. Whitebeard was scary powerful and got killed. :/
I think you guys (In general) exclude too many things in the ranks. DF alone and rank doesn't make someone top tier, because there are circumstances to be counted in each fight. That includes ALSO escaping from the prison of WG, fighting with many strong opponents and ending considerably WELL after the war finished (See Boa Hancok boat, Ivankov was alright)

And you seem to forget that World Government is ONE that commans the whole world from more than 400 years, Dragon is nearly 40-60 years old in which case He's not making the RA all his life (So rest 20 to that amount of history of the RA) and needs to first gather social reinforcement and connections between the states (Islands, nations, whatever) in order to create a state. You put it like it's simple enough to just win a war, I see it as complicate as starting a true revolution.

Anyway, your last point is convincing :P The plot one. I still stand by the latest villain is the most powerful. :P (Notice that I add villain to be more clear: Jimbei, Mihawk and even Smoker are not quite the enemies but rivals in some point and allies in a sense)
I've nothing to say about Blackbeard though So you win that one :P

---

PS: I mean new state when I say "in order to create a state"
PS2: I'm assuming that Dragon created RA and it did not exist before him.

 

[Quaro1987]

I still stand by the latest villain is the most powerful.

To be fair, One Piece is so well written and planned through, that Oda introduced many top tier characters in the first chapters (Mihawk, Dragon, Garp) so he can use them later.

Would it be that dramatic, if Luffy only met Blackbeard at the end? Heck, would it be any suspenseful if Blackbeard had a set power level, and he didn't get stronger with time, just like Luffy does?

I believe many villains who were introduced early on (Don Flamingo, Kuma ect.) were done so they can be intimidating. There is so much build up behind Don Flamingo you just know it's going to be a badass fight.



Anyway, I would change your phrase to "the latest villain fought is the most powerful."

 

[Wisshard]

Remember that Admirals are not weaker than Sengoku, that's just the administrative and experience tittle

^A sentiment I share. I don't believe either that Sengoku is, or was, superior to the current Admirals. Garp, I agree, was almost certainly stronger then the current Admirals (and probably still is) and likely only Smoker will equal his legendary strength among the Marines. But I have seen no indication that Sengoku is, or was, stronger then the current Admirals. Which is well and good, since in my opinion, it would diminish the current Admirals if they are overshadowed by both of the past eras Admiral fighters.

but that doesn't mean He's weak or not on the top dogs.

It doesn't mean that Iva-chan is weak, no. He is plenty strong, as I agreed before, but there is a very significant gap between him and
the people I refer to as top dogs (e.g. the Yonkou and their stronget fighters (e.g. Beckman), Marco, Jozu, Vista, Mihawk, the Admirals, Garp, Sengoku etc.).

Which to me, at least, means that Iva-chan, as strong as he is, simply isn't anywhere close to being a top combatant (the absolute strongest) in One Piece.

Note. I do not mean to diminish Iva-chan. A characters "worth" is not defined by his fighting strength, and Iva-chan has an awesome personality with hilarious quirks.

And you seem to avoided Kuma.

I did yes, because we haven't got a clear picture of his strength and limits. But given his performance against Ivankov in the war, it seems suggestive that at least PX-0 is in the same ballpark as Iva-chan. That is, a long way from the top.

DF alone and rank doesn't make someone top tier, because there are circumstances to be counted in each fight.

Personally, I rank characters fighting strength after their combat prowess (i.e. movement/reaction/attack speed, durability, damage soak, physical strength, martial/DF skill etc.; how able they are in a fight, simply put) - not after their potential DF ability.

Of course circumstances is important in a fight, but a specific circumstance doesn't change a characters fundamental capacity.

 

[Pride~]

I think that the marines should be considered as strongest group.

In my opinion, they are the strongest force in numbers and they also possess a lot of powerful individuals like the Admirals, Sengoku, Garp and so on.

 

[Uriel]

^A sentiment I share. I don't believe either that Sengoku is, or was, superior to the current Admirals. Garp, I agree, was almost certainly stronger then the current Admirals (and probably still is) and likely only Smoker will equal his legendary strength among the Marines. But I have seen no indication that Sengoku is, or was, stronger then the current Admirals. Which is well and good, since in my opinion, it would diminish the current Admirals if they are overshadowed by both of the past eras Admiral fighters.

Smoker? Could be. I see his character in a weird way, so I just can't make my mind about him. I want to see what this 2 years made of him.

It doesn't mean that Iva-chan is weak, no. He is plenty strong, as I agreed before, but there is a very significant gap between him and
the people I refer to as top dogs (e.g. the Yonkou and their stronget fighters (e.g. Beckman), Marco, Jozu, Vista, Mihawk, the Admirals, Garp, Sengoku etc.).

I will agree with the Yonkous and the first commanders but...Jozu there? Honestly? Beckman for sure, Marco for me is a maybe. I know, He's strong...But I doubt He's in the league of Mihawk (Best Swordsman) and any other Yonkou.

And to be honest, I would say that Ivankov IS in the same league than Marco and Jozu (Which if we talk about ranks it's three-four stops down of the very top)
Everyone thinks that Ivankov does not use Haki while I think sHe DOES have. We have seen now that Luffy shows some kind of spark while using Haki, which is very similar to the one showed by many characters in Marineford that weren't used before by other similar moves from other characters.

I did yes, because we haven't got a clear picture of his strength and limits. But given his performance against Ivankov in the war, it seems suggestive that at least PX-0 is in the same ballpark as Iva-chan. That is, a long way from the top.

To be fair, we have seen how tremendous his DF is. Being able to bounce EVERYTHING is quite fearsome. Not to consider its speed when He was able to think. As PX-0 we only saw He shoot lasers. Which is incredible because is the same kind of ability that Kizaru possess and as far as we know something completely new in the world of One Piece.

I think there is more to come about Kuma and we have not seen everything from him OR Iva and that will revealed with Dragon when the time is right.
At this point I can't prove my words because it's solely based on my opinion and facts that could be or could not be, but I'll stand by the belief that Dragon Revolutionary Armada is the strongest group and Kuma and Iva are just a hint from Oda for us to measure their strength.

Also I doubt the most wanted man in the world is not surrounded by people that is not on the top tiers, because that would bring questions as "IF admirals are strongest why they did not capture him yet?" or "If He's surrounded by weaklings inferior to admirals...Wouldn't be enough the three admirals together to capture him long ago and avoid the Government so much trouble?" "Only by hiding can be someone THAT wanted?"
I don't know for sure, but everything there smells fishy to me. There HAS to be someone STRONG in order to achieve their goals and have ALREADY the recognition Dragon has.

Let's remember that we don't know the world if it's not by the eyes of Luffy and the Strawhats, which means we lack of big names yet.

Of course circumstances is important in a fight, but a specific circumstance doesn't change a characters fundamental capacity.

See Crocodile.
But it's opinions here as well, so I can't argue this xD Anyway, I applaud Oda because it's only manga after Hunter X Hunter in which battles are not rinse and repeat and exterior elements brings something new each battle.

 

[kkck]

I think there are a few issues with how the forces are compared. The shichibukai are a group of seven very strong pirates but if we match just them against the other forces mentioned then they don't have a chance in hell. Each of WB's commanders was strong enough to fight with a shichibukai or an admiral.... The shichibukai would be outnumbered and overpowered. The admirals and VAs are insanely strong too, the shichibukai would lose due to being outnumbered by so many powerful people.

The yonkou are not a force of their own as the world government or revolutionary army is. The yonkou are 4 individual pirates who have their own affairs. What's more, they are enemies. In that sense, a yonko vs marines comparison makes no sense. Also, does this comparison include affiliated crews (who could have members capable of fighting with top ranked marines)? Based on what we saw the WB pirates even without the affiliated crews were a force significant enough to cause severe damage to the world government. With the affiliated crews they are at least as powerful as the marines. If just one yonko is that powerful, then what about the four of them? The scenario is borderline impossible but it is overly obvious that if the 4 emperors were to unite against the world government then the world government would be destroyed easily without leaving a trace.

 

[Wisshard]

Smoker? Could be. I see his character in a weird way, so I just can't make my mind about him. I want to see what this 2 years made of him.

Maybe I was jumping the gun here, but for me it seems clear that Smoker is an unequivocal parallel to Garp, considering the several characteristics they share: they are both wayward marines who have declined promotion on-panel, are stubborn in their own agendas and have no qualms about telling their superiors off and they both share an obsession to personally hunt down the to-be Pirate King.

Considering the above, I'm certain that Smoker will be a recurring adversary for Luffy throughout the New World, just as he was during the Grand Line.

[...]but...Jozu there? Honestly? Beckman for sure, Marco for me is a maybe. I know, He's strong...But I doubt He's in the league of Mihawk (Best Swordsman) and any other Yonkou.

^You readily accept Beckman (and the other first mate of the Yonkou's) yet Marco is only a maybe...? Marco was the first mate of Whitebeard, the former strongest man in the World, and after his captains death was mentioned by the Gorosei alongside the remaining Yonkou's as powerhouses that could definitly spell an end for the Blackbeard Pirates.

Not to mention that he was portrayed as on par with the Admirals during the war (most notably his initial clash with Kizaru, where both, upon taking an attack from the other, joked that they were hurt).

You don't consider Jozu a top tier? While I certainly don't think that he is right on par with the Admirals, I think he definitely proved his worth when he matched Aokiji for a while, until he was distracted. If you are able enough to fight an Admiral like Jozu did, then you aren't that far off from them.

And to be honest, I would say that Ivankov IS in the same league than Marco and Jozu (Which if we talk about ranks it's three-four stops down of the very top)

Really? That is stretching it a little to far. Iva-chan was swiftly defeated by Magellan, who only had a bruise on his forehead as evidence of any difficulty, and was effortlessly, almost instantaneously, defeated by severely injured Akainu. While on the other hand, Jozu fought Aokiji for a while without being fodderized, loosing eventually when he was distracted (which was quite stupid.... seriously, why the hell should it concern him if Marco was injured? The guy can regenerate for crying out loud) and Marco performed adequately for the first mate of the World's Strongest Man during the war.

Looking at their feats and how they were portrayed, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Iva-chan is even close to Marco and Jozu.

Everyone thinks that Ivankov does not use Haki while I think sHe DOES have.

¨
I'm a little uncertain on the subject myself. I can easily believe that she has Haki, if only she hasn't shown any hint of it and I think Oda would've given us at least that, if Iva-chan indeed was a Haki-user. For instance, even Jinbe had several instances where it's very possible that he used Haki (i.e. when he fought Ace and when he caught Akainu's magma fist with his right hand).

That being said, I don't find it far fetched to believe that Iva-chan has Haki. There were obviously many people in the war who were Haki-users (though probably not many with as much panel time as Iva-chan), yet showed no sign of it.

But even if Iva-chan is a Haki-user it doesn't change the way his fighting strength was portrayed by Oda: he simply doesn't match up to the upper echelon of fighters like Magellan, let alone someone like Jozu (or Marco).

To be fair, we have seen how tremendous his DF is. Being able to bounce EVERYTHING is quite fearsome.

True enough; Kuma does possess a very dangerous and versatile ability. But that by itself doesn't say anything about how able he really is in a fight. For instance, Enel had (imo) one of the most dangerous Devil Fruits out there, yet he would get his ass whoped worse than Iva-chan by Akainu (or any top tier) because his overall combat prowess (i.e. reaction speed, martial skill, durability, damage soak etc.) isn't as good as Iva-chans.

As PX-0 we only saw He shoot lasers. Which is incredible because is the same kind of ability that Kizaru possess and as far as we know something completely new in the world of One Piece.

We also saw PX-0 use Ursus Shock, Paw-Paw Cannon and Paw-Paw "teleport" during the war.

And Kuma's laser, while lethally dangerous to pre-TS Straw Hats, isn't much to cheer for post-TS. Both Zoro and Luffy dodged a point-blank laser from Kuma before the time skip, and we saw the contemptuous ease with which Luffy dodged one after the time skip. But since Kuma has probably been upgraded by the fancy Dr. Vegapunk now, I suppose it doesn't really matter...

Also I doubt the most wanted man in the world is not surrounded by people that is not on the top tiers

Dragon certainly does, but those top tiers are evidently not Kuma and Iva-chan (not that they are around Dragon anyway; one was sent to become a mindless cyborg for the World Government and the other sat in Impel Down...).

"IF admirals are strongest why they did not capture him yet?" or "If He's surrounded by weaklings inferior to admirals...Wouldn't be enough the three admirals together to capture him long ago and avoid the Government so much trouble?"

I think you overlook a significant talent of Dragon's; he is notoriously elusive.

If the WG could pin him down for an attack by the Admirals like you suggest, they would've done so without hesitation even if Dragon has commanders on par with Whitebeard's. The guy is the most wanted man in the world and is upsetting the sacred order that the WG has set, I think they would take a risk for a chance to bring him down.

"Only by hiding can be someone THAT wanted?"

By hiding and continually instigating revolts in countries under the World Governments control.

See Crocodile.

Like I said, circumstances can obviously have impact on a battle, but that doesn't mean that Crocodile was any worse a fighter. His personality, and the events that led up to his final bout with Luffy simply led him to pursue another tactic in order to kill Luffy.

 

[Franckie]

The Yonkou are obviously the strongest. MHQ + 7BK are out of the question because these two groups figure into the WG's collective total military power. Furthermore, the two combined power only stalemate the Yonkou because the Yonkou fight amongst each other. In addition, with WB's death reinvigorating the "Great Age of Piracy", more pirates than ever are flooding the Grand Line, which further aids the Yonkou.

Not sure about the Revolutionary Army. Oda hasn't touched upon how they influence the balance of power, but they'll probably be counted amongst the pirates' side of the equation considering the Revolutionaries close ties to the Mugiwaras.

 

[Uriel]

Well, even after your great arguments (And I will accept that Marco is on the top A team) I still don't see why thinking of Dragon RA as weak saying that they're elusive when we don't know ANYTHING about the cross that they have with the WG. :/

 

[Wisshard]

^I didn't argue against your view of the Revolutionary Army's military strength as a whole. We know little and less of them, and I refrained from speculating on their capacity.

However, I will admit that I think it's very unlikely that Dragon and his merry-band can out-muscle the World Government collected military forces. The Revolutionary Army is undoubtedly strong, but there is a reason (beyond gaining the good will of the smallfolks) that they slowly and cautiously chip away at the outskirts of the WG's territory; because they can't simply bullrush The Holy Land Mariejois (and Marinford) and all but win their revolution in one battle.

I'd think that the Revolutionary Army is stronger than the might of any individual Yonkou (including Whitebeard when he was alive), but weaker then the Marines.

 

[Uriel]

In what I said is that the superiority of World Government is due their time as rulers, considering that RA is quite young as an institution. And being young and already be a challenge makes me believe they're stronger...At least potentially.

 

[Rikudou Sennin]

Some people dont get it.

Everybody argues that if the RA would be that strong, they would have had beaten the Marines already.

Clearly no, as this is not their goal. The RA doesnt want to kill off somebody or beat down to a pulp, they want to change the whole system, and just destroying it wont change anything as people wont trust them then.

Thats why the have to camly gain trust.

I vote for the RA too, even though the Marines (more precisly, the World Goverment) is a force to be reckond with, just think about the probable power of the gorusei.

The Yonku are strong too....but in the end, Whitebeards crew would have been wrecked without ruffy and his impel down crew.

Shishibukai is weakest to me. Two reasons; Kuma is a revolutionary himself as probable hancock (she is not world goverementally firendly at all ) and hawkeyes cetrainly isnt a world goverment clown, which leaves doflamingo....so meeeh, no they are weak because they are no real group and everybody is just doing what the hell they want to do, they are pirates after all

 

[FujiNumberOne]

This is a difficult one, but I chose the Yonkou. Here's my reasoning:

Marines: The marines are pretty weak, despite their massive numbers. Luffy alone, while at Enies Lobby, took out countless marines, and that even before Haki or Gear Second/Third. Imagine 3 of the strongest pirates ever taking on the marines. If Luffy without some of his strongest skills could do as much damage as he did, the Yonkou could tear them apart.

Shichibukai: Yes, they're strong, but Mihawk, who's probably one of the strongest, admitted that the distance between them and Whitebeard, and then pretty much ran away when Shanks showed up. So imagine them two, plus two other ridiculously strong pirates, working together...and don't even get me started on Moria. He was a coward whose only strength was his massive army of zombies.

Revolutionary Army: This is the main reason that it was difficult to choose. Now, we can't say that Dragon is ridiculously strong. He very well may be, but it's not fact. Yes, he's the most wanted man in the world, but that's because he's the leader of a group that is planning to overthrow the World Government. It isn't guaranteed that he's a leader because he's strong. He could just be an amazing leader and could demand respect because of his leadership skills. So, we can't guarantee that he's ridiculously strong. Basically, while this group is a good candidate for the strongest, we can't really say they are because there's too much mystery about them. We don't know their power.

 

[Rikudou Sennin]

This is a difficult one, but I chose the Yonkou. Here's my reasoning:

Marines: The marines are pretty weak, despite their massive numbers. Luffy alone, while at Enies Lobby, took out countless marines, and that even before Haki or Gear Second/Third. Imagine 3 of the strongest pirates ever taking on the marines. If Luffy without some of his strongest skills could do as much damage as he did, the Yonkou could tear them apart.

Shichibukai: Yes, they're strong, but Mihawk, who's probably one of the strongest, admitted that the distance between them and Whitebeard, and then pretty much ran away when Shanks showed up. So imagine them two, plus two other ridiculously strong pirates, working together...and don't even get me started on Moria. He was a coward whose only strength was his massive army of zombies.

Revolutionary Army: This is the main reason that it was difficult to choose. Now, we can't say that Dragon is ridiculously strong. He very well may be, but it's not fact. Yes, he's the most wanted man in the world, but that's because he's the leader of a group that is planning to overthrow the World Government. It isn't guaranteed that he's a leader because he's strong. He could just be an amazing leader and could demand respect because of his leadership skills. So, we can't guarantee that he's ridiculously strong. Basically, while this group is a good candidate for the strongest, we can't really say they are because there's too much mystery about them. We don't know their power.

And what does old storytelling say?

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Old storytelling is exactly as you say. Old. It doesn't guarantee that it's true for this. We don't know much about them, so I can't say they're the strongest. Look at Naruto for example. The 'mystery group' was Akatsuki. And now almost all of them are dead with only Asuma and Jiraiya dead to show for it. And in Bleach, the big 'mystery group' was the Espada, and now all of them are dead with no casualties to show for it. So I can't factually say just because they're mysterious means they could take down 4 of the strongest pirates ever (3 if we aren't counting Whitebeard).

 

[Uriel]

Dragon is helluvah strong, I can assure it.
He is a D. He's son of Garp. He's the most wanted man. It's actually quite the same than holding an title of Yonkou, but He's making an army out of it.

We KNOW his power, as well.

Old storytelling is exactly as you say. Old. It doesn't guarantee that it's true for this. We don't know much about them, so I can't say they're the strongest. Look at Naruto for example. The 'mystery group' was Akatsuki. And now almost all of them are dead with only Asuma and Jiraiya dead to show for it. And in Bleach, the big 'mystery group' was the Espada, and now all of them are dead with no casualties to show for it. So I can't factually say just because they're mysterious means they could take down 4 of the strongest pirates ever (3 if we aren't counting Whitebeard).

They are all enemies :/ Of course they will be defeated.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

So a middle name starting with a letter means he's strong? And his father being strong also makes him strong? Give me a break. Those are worthless arguments. And I already presented an argument against the most wanted man thing. Of course he is, he's leading a revolt against the World Government. Doesn't mean he's a beast fighter. Think about it this way. Most generals in the military are rather old (50+). Do you think they'd get much done on the frontlines? No. But they're incredible strategists, which is why they are the leaders. And the president of the US is high on the hit lists of many of America's enemies. But they aren't fighters either. They are just the leaders.

And I'm pretty sure that since we are grouping them together against other groups to see which is stronger that we're assuming they're going to work together.

 

[shukketsumaru]

Based on what I know, it's gotta be the yonkou. Just one of them forced the entire marine force and all active shichibukai to gather together. Therefore, if all the Yonkou share the same range of strength, Shanks + Kaidou + Big Mom > Marines + Shichibukai.

 

[Rikudou Sennin]

Based on what I know, it's gotta be the yonkou. Just one of them forced the entire marine force and all active shichibukai to gather together. Therefore, if all the Yonkou share the same range of strength, Shanks + Kaidou + Big Mom > Marines + Shichibukai.

Do you count the world goverment to the marines? If not, it could change this idea.

We dont know how powerfull the gorusei are, we dont know Kongs power and we dont know if they have certrain Members that live in the new world and are very strong.

 

[Ero-Sanji]

So a middle name starting with a letter means he's strong? And his father being strong also makes him strong? Give me a break. Those are worthless arguments.

No intentions of being rude but I hope you've noticed that One piece is a shounen battle manga. Family names and strength of ancestors are the corner stones for defining a certain persons strength in a shounen battle manga. Also seeing how Dragon not only is the son of Garp but also the father of Luffy he might be one of the strongest character we've seen.

And I already presented an argument against the most wanted man thing. Of course he is, he's leading a revolt against the World Government. Doesn't mean he's a beast fighter. Think about it this way. Most generals in the military are rather old (50+). Do you think they'd get much done on the frontlines? No. But they're incredible strategists, which is why they are the leaders. And the president of the US is high on the hit lists of many of America's enemies. But they aren't fighters either. They are just the leaders.

We're still reading a shounen battle manga. Some things reflect the real world and some don't. The most common theme for powerful leaders in shounen is probably their immense strength in both charisma and battle capabilities. I don't see why Dragon should be an exception. Also, interestingly, in the recent (Op) war the general was well over 50 and he also died at the front lines