Which position is best:

Brian Taboada

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I know they say fisherman are the front line attackers and typically strongest fighters. However, you look at Enryu who was a spear bearer or Eduan and you have to question this logic at least a little bit.

If you were to climb the tower, what position (non-special) would you like to have?
And if it was truly a battle of the best at one position versus the best at another, which position do you think should win?
(I am thinking Spear Bearer because the sniping from a distance can decimate an army before they get close)
  • Fisherman (Urek, Zahard, Yuri, Andori, Enne, Luslec)
  • Spear Bearer. (Eduan, Enryu)
  • Scout
  • Light Bearer
  • Wave Controller (Gustang, YHS, Baek, Eurasia, Baam)
 

Ripcord

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I know they say fisherman are the front line attackers and typically strongest fighters. However, you look at Enryu who was a spear bearer or Eduan and you have to question this logic at least a little bit.

If you were to climb the tower, what position (non-special) would you like to have?
And if it was truly a battle of the best at one position versus the best at another, which position do you think should win?
(I am thinking Spear Bearer because the sniping from a distance can decimate an army before they get close)
  • Fisherman (Urek, Zahard, Yuri, Andori, Enne, Luslec)
  • Spear Bearer. (Eduan, Enryu)
  • Scout
  • Light Bearer
  • Wave Controller (Gustang, YHS, Baek, Eurasia, Baam)
I was never sure Enryu was really a spear bearer.... he always felt more like an offensive wave controller (the whole 9000 bangs comment).

I would say that fishermen are the most critical, as they’re often at the crux of the action and they’re more capable to act on their own.

However, I would say that wave controllers are the most feared. Their powers can vary a lot and for anyone not skilled in shinsoo they can be hard to handle.

Spear bearers are a jack of all trades... they need to be skilled up close and far away, but I don’t think they can handle a fisherman that comes close.

Light bearers are too much support and defense to beat anyone on their own.

Scouts can be strong but I don’t think they can act alone for long.

So I would say between all of them fisherman or wave controller are the strongest, but it depends on the shinsoo abilities of the fisherman.
 

Demonspeed

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Fisherman to mean generally means good close range fighter, it's the most basic of the positions so far. The positions have specific roles but the stronger you get the more polyvalent you become.

I would like to become a Scout, they do recon an can be fighters on the frontline. Wave Controller as well for its flexibility but it's harder to become one considering it depends on your affinity with Shinsoo. Karaka is also a Fisherman but his Wave Controller-Scout build is something I like. Plus according to him Scouts have a mind reading skill.

There is a lot of things we don't know. Talent varies so I don't think positions can be gauged like that but a Light Bearer would generally lose to the other positions since strength isn't a necessity for them, they rely on tactics and equipment the most. Then we have non offensive Scouts like Leesoo or Miseng. Even a traditional Wave Controller doesn't really appear disadvantaged in combat to me since they control Shinsoo, they can be better than offensive ones in combat. As long as he is good with Shinsoo the rest depends on his nature. For Spear Bearers, Wave Controllers, offensive Scouts and Fishermen it depends on the skills of the person too much but since Fishermen are more accustomed to fight they would probably win the most overall.

EDIT: A Spear Bearer relies a bit more than the others about his equipment compared to the most offensive positions I think. If he has a throwing spear, a spear good for fight at close range, a bad pipe etc.

Overall in combat: Fisherman> Wave Controller/Offensive Scout> Spear Bearer> Non offensive Scout> Light Bearer.
 
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Siya101

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Wave controller by far since you control the tide of the battle and if your team has a talented wave controller you are most likely to win in the team fights and you can even do shinsu enhancement and bangs for close range
 

kkck

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I know they say fisherman are the front line attackers and typically strongest fighters. However, you look at Enryu who was a spear bearer or Eduan and you have to question this logic at least a little bit.

If you were to climb the tower, what position (non-special) would you like to have?
And if it was truly a battle of the best at one position versus the best at another, which position do you think should win?
(I am thinking Spear Bearer because the sniping from a distance can decimate an army before they get close)
  • Fisherman (Urek, Zahard, Yuri, Andori, Enne, Luslec)
  • Spear Bearer. (Eduan, Enryu)
  • Scout
  • Light Bearer
  • Wave Controller (Gustang, YHS, Baek, Eurasia, Baam)
I would argue the position comparison between heads and strong enough high rankers is not all that relevant to begin with. SIU has made the point that regardles of their positions all heads and even urek can perform in any position extremely well (phrasing). And when looking at a bunch of people in different positions it is fairly clear there can be some serious overlap between them, specially once regulars start getting stronger and learn new techniques. And way too much of this ultimately depends on factors beyond what position you are in.

Take ran. The guy is a fisherman but his actual skillset is clearly that of a spear bearer. He literally throws lightning spears at anyone he can. And then he fights other fisherman, like anak, and bests them even though her skillset was clearly that of a fisherman. In short a fisherman with spear bearer skills can best a fisherman with fisherman skills...

To add to that, the scout is an insanely offensive position. It's someone that even has to deal with the enemy alone considering how teams are structured. Given the sheer risk of being a scout I would argue a scout in most cases needs offensive capability at least comparable to a fisherman. Unless the guy in question is so insanely fast that fighting is not a necessity. And the only case we have seen approaching that is dan... But take hatz, he is a scout but is capable of holding his ground against even a princess.... hatz is probably more of a typical example of what a scout is like. Even if his strength is exceptional for a regular like him. Still, the requirements for scout seem to be virtually the same as for a fisherman in the end, at least offensively and physically. The equipment might vary though.

Wave controller is a position which we simply have not been properly explained yet. The closest thing I assume we have seen to what a wave controller actually is is young YHS when he used his abilities to enhance other shinsoo attacks. Bam is a wave controller but given how he usually fights he is more like a fisherman. He is capable of close range combat and can vastly enhance his own physical strength and endurance with shinsoo even if he doesn't naturally have the strength of other members of the 10 families. And then, shinsoo manipulation naturally leads to long range combat using bangs and other techniques. Which sounds awefully similar to what a spear bearer does.

Remember what the strongest 2 man team in the tower is? Wave controller and light bearer. Because a light bearer can help aim bangs from a distance. How is that much different from a spear bearer and light bearer combo? If its because of the amount of bangs then the only reason for the spear bearer position to exist is that any asshole can be a spear bearer but not any asshole can be a wave controller. Defender and spear bearer is supposed to be a good combination but defender and wave controller would appear to be about as good or better overall.

Another fun case, androsi: She is a fisherman whose only weapon is a needle. When she is not using a needle she definitely feels like a fisherman though.

Another moment to consider: Karaka vs yuri. We saw yuri and karaka fight and that was a gigantic fuck you to the floor as a whole and everything was turned into barren wasteland through explosions. How much of a thing can range be in this case if just the collateral is that big? In what scenario does range become a thing here? The only way a spear bearer would be necessary here is that the norm is for a spear bearer to fight literally hundreds and perhaps thousands of km away....

the only known position which is ultimately consistently different from all of the others is light bearer. Because it specifically requires the user to use lighthouses. Unlike fisherman who end up using virtually any weapon they want, spear bearers who rarely have spears with them... Scouts have observers of course but in turn we have evidence that scouts can work fine without observers because they can learn to do the stuff observers do. Basically observers are crutches for limited scouts at best. And since a scout needs to have fighting capacity comparable to a fisherman to begin with they can basically use any weapon they want anyways.

So in short, all positions except light bearers are bullshit. SIU for all of his merits has failed in actually showing how spear bearers, fisherman and scouts significantly differ from one another so as to justify the positions existence. Wave controllers remain an unknown so the position may or not mesh into the others. Light bearer is basically the only position with a clearly defined function and scope.

Now, going by how the series has described the positions rather than by how they have been portrayed, I would prefer spear bearer or wave controller. Light bearer seems like too much of a responsibility since you are the one telling everyone what to do and keeping them alive. Spear bearer or wave controller are nice tactical positions which deal with support. Wave controller would probably be the cooler one between the two for versatilities sake.
 

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I would argue the position comparison between heads and strong enough high rankers is not all that relevant to begin with. SIU has made the point that regardles of their positions all heads and even urek can perform in any position extremely well (phrasing). And when looking at a bunch of people in different positions it is fairly clear there can be some serious overlap between them, specially once regulars start getting stronger and learn new techniques. And way too much of this ultimately depends on factors beyond what position you are in.

Take ran. The guy is a fisherman but his actual skillset is clearly that of a spear bearer. He literally throws lightning spears at anyone he can. And then he fights other fisherman, like anak, and bests them even though her skillset was clearly that of a fisherman. In short a fisherman with spear bearer skills can best a fisherman with fisherman skills...

To add to that, the scout is an insanely offensive position. It's someone that even has to deal with the enemy alone considering how teams are structured. Given the sheer risk of being a scout I would argue a scout in most cases needs offensive capability at least comparable to a fisherman. Unless the guy in question is so insanely fast that fighting is not a necessity. And the only case we have seen approaching that is dan... But take hatz, he is a scout but is capable of holding his ground against even a princess.... hatz is probably more of a typical example of what a scout is like. Even if his strength is exceptional for a regular like him. Still, the requirements for scout seem to be virtually the same as for a fisherman in the end, at least offensively and physically. The equipment might vary though.

Wave controller is a position which we simply have not been properly explained yet. The closest thing I assume we have seen to what a wave controller actually is is young YHS when he used his abilities to enhance other shinsoo attacks. Bam is a wave controller but given how he usually fights he is more like a fisherman. He is capable of close range combat and can vastly enhance his own physical strength and endurance with shinsoo even if he doesn't naturally have the strength of other members of the 10 families. And then, shinsoo manipulation naturally leads to long range combat using bangs and other techniques. Which sounds awefully similar to what a spear bearer does.

Remember what the strongest 2 man team in the tower is? Wave controller and light bearer. Because a light bearer can help aim bangs from a distance. How is that much different from a spear bearer and light bearer combo? If its because of the amount of bangs then the only reason for the spear bearer position to exist is that any asshole can be a spear bearer but not any asshole can be a wave controller. Defender and spear bearer is supposed to be a good combination but defender and wave controller would appear to be about as good or better overall.

Another fun case, androsi: She is a fisherman whose only weapon is a needle. When she is not using a needle she definitely feels like a fisherman though.

Another moment to consider: Karaka vs yuri. We saw yuri and karaka fight and that was a gigantic fuck you to the floor as a whole and everything was turned into barren wasteland through explosions. How much of a thing can range be in this case if just the collateral is that big? In what scenario does range become a thing here? The only way a spear bearer would be necessary here is that the norm is for a spear bearer to fight literally hundreds and perhaps thousands of km away....

the only known position which is ultimately consistently different from all of the others is light bearer. Because it specifically requires the user to use lighthouses. Unlike fisherman who end up using virtually any weapon they want, spear bearers who rarely have spears with them... Scouts have observers of course but in turn we have evidence that scouts can work fine without observers because they can learn to do the stuff observers do. Basically observers are crutches for limited scouts at best. And since a scout needs to have fighting capacity comparable to a fisherman to begin with they can basically use any weapon they want anyways.

So in short, all positions except light bearers are bullshit. SIU for all of his merits has failed in actually showing how spear bearers, fisherman and scouts significantly differ from one another so as to justify the positions existence. Wave controllers remain an unknown so the position may or not mesh into the others. Light bearer is basically the only position with a clearly defined function and scope.

Now, going by how the series has described the positions rather than by how they have been portrayed, I would prefer spear bearer or wave controller. Light bearer seems like too much of a responsibility since you are the one telling everyone what to do and keeping them alive. Spear bearer or wave controller are nice tactical positions which deal with support. Wave controller would probably be the cooler one between the two for versatilities sake.
I wouldn’t say it’s bullshit. You can say that as far as someone being assigned something and that wholly defines them is incorrect.

Since SIU loves football (soccer) so much I’ll use that as an analogy.

Some strikers can play midfield, midfield can be strikers, or defend. Defenders can be midfield or even a striker if the timing is right. I suppose a goalie is like a light bearer.

Anyway, each person can move freely about the field and take on different roles as the game (test) progresses. But if everyone has it sorted as to what role they are going to fulfill in a team effort then the person mostly doing defense (spear bearer) work will stay back to help defend the goalie (light bearer) while the fisherman goes forward.

You can see this with Ran and Nobic when they communicate that they’re going to swap roles. It’s so they both don’t try to do the same thing and leave themselves open to a counterattack.

As people get more skilled they can fulfill different roles and when fights get really big then team members may need to fill multiple roles at once. Things at that point change from zone defense to a man to man defense.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also I read recently that the positions were initially created to fight the shinhueh (fish) in the Tower. So I suppose the terms are archaic as no one really does that anymore.
 

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I wouldn’t say it’s bullshit. You can say that as far as someone being assigned something and that wholly defines them is incorrect.

Since SIU loves football (soccer) so much I’ll use that as an analogy.

Some strikers can play midfield, midfield can be strikers, or defend. Defenders can be midfield or even a striker if the timing is right. I suppose a goalie is like a light bearer.

Anyway, each person can move freely about the field and take on different roles as the game (test) progresses. But if everyone has it sorted as to what role they are going to fulfill in a team effort then the person mostly doing defense (spear bearer) work will stay back to help defend the goalie (light bearer) while the fisherman goes forward.

You can see this with Ran and Nobic when they communicate that they’re going to swap roles. It’s so they both don’t try to do the same thing and leave themselves open to a counterattack.

As people get more skilled they can fulfill different roles and when fights get really big then team members may need to fill multiple roles at once. Things at that point change from zone defense to a man to man defense.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also I read recently that the positions were initially created to fight the shinhueh (fish) in the Tower. So I suppose the terms are archaic as no one really does that anymore.
That would more or less be my point. For the positions to be meaningful they would have to be sufficiently different from one another to begin with. Too much overlap ultimately makes the positions irrelevant. Positions means virtually nothing when it comes to fighting individuals fighting, they have some manner of relevance in team fights and they actually work in the context of tests. but there are rules and objectives in tests which make the positions relevant so that doesn't apply to real fights.

Based on what we have seen so far I would argue that there are 3 relevant positions that matter in real life tog combat. Close range, long range and lightbearer. The lightbearer is the only position that objectively works. Spearbearers and ranged offensive wave controllers are mostly interchangeable. Most of what scouts do can ultimately be done by fishermen (and vice versa).

The defender I guess could be useful given that the lightbearer and long range positions are relevant.

Anima of course are actual things though but being an anima doesn't necessarily suggest a specific position. I am guessing fisherman since up close would be the best place to release a rabid animal on an enemy.
 

tornidooo

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I wouldn’t say it’s bullshit. You can say that as far as someone being assigned something and that wholly defines them is incorrect.

Since SIU loves football (soccer) so much I’ll use that as an analogy.

Some strikers can play midfield, midfield can be strikers, or defend. Defenders can be midfield or even a striker if the timing is right. I suppose a goalie is like a light bearer.
+ 99999999999999
 

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There isn’t a best one. Certain fights and situation benefit certain position. If the situation allows for sneaking around and stealth there’s no reason a scout shouldn’t win. If it’s a straight up CQC fight a fisher man should win. And similar situations exist for wave controllers and spear bearers.

The only one that doesn’t have a situation it wins is light bearer. But if a light bearer has other skills to use in tandem or a secondary position there’d be situations they could win too.

Also you have to consider there’s different types of every positions. Wave controllers can be straight support but there are some like Baam who are more fisherman and others like laure who function more like spear bearers for their team. Some scouts are just scouts like dan but others are closer to assassins(quant and hatsu)

Spear bearers also have a wide array of types. Some like Asensio and ran fight more like a fisherman, others do more long distance strikes, and some act kind of like defenders. And as previously mentioned some light bearers have secondary positions that can help them. Fishermen are probably the most static. Some have mid range with shinsu or reel work but they’re mostly CQC

TL;DR: there’s way too many variables to say one positions is better than another. Certain positions have a general advantage in some situations but you have to take it on a person to person basis because some people fight like more than one position.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
If I had to choose a position I’d say either spear bearer or wave controller since they(in my opinion) have the largest variety of attack. I’d probably try be like ran and be able to cover multiple positions
 

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There isn’t a best one. Certain fights and situation benefit certain position. If the situation allows for sneaking around and stealth there’s no reason a scout shouldn’t win. If it’s a straight up CQC fight a fisher man should win. And similar situations exist for wave controllers and spear bearers.

The only one that doesn’t have a situation it wins is light bearer. But if a light bearer has other skills to use in tandem or a secondary position there’d be situations they could win too.

Also you have to consider there’s different types of every positions. Wave controllers can be straight support but there are some like Baam who are more fisherman and others like laure who function more like spear bearers for their team. Some scouts are just scouts like dan but others are closer to assassins(quant and hatsu)

Spear bearers also have a wide array of types. Some like Asensio and ran fight more like a fisherman, others do more long distance strikes, and some act kind of like defenders. And as previously mentioned some light bearers have secondary positions that can help them. Fishermen are probably the most static. Some have mid range with shinsu or reel work but they’re mostly CQC

TL;DR: there’s way too many variables to say one positions is better than another. Certain positions have a general advantage in some situations but you have to take it on a person to person basis because some people fight like more than one position.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
If I had to choose a position I’d say either spear bearer or wave controller since they(in my opinion) have the largest variety of attack. I’d probably try be like ran and be able to cover multiple positions
Technically ran is a fisherman, it's his techniques that are usually those of a spear bearer. We don't really know what asencio's position is but given what we have seen it wouldn't be in the least bit strange that he could perform a fisherman's duties even if he mostly uses a spear.

I think what you are saying ultimately plays into what I suggested earlier. There is simply too much overlap between positions for the distinction to even matter in most cases. Just the koon bit is a perfect example of what I am saying, he is a fisherman with spear bearer techniques. And he doesn't even use different techniques regardless of the range he is at. And as far as I can remember we have yet to see spear bearer techniques which would fail in close range...

You do have a point about wave controllers though I somewhat disagree about your laure example though. He doesn't usually do much and what little we have seen usually involves shinsoo reading or straight up shinsoo blasts. YHS is a better example of a supporting wave controller though give that he does use his talents to enhance his allies' power. Bam I would argue is virtually indistinguishable from a fisherman or spear bearer but YHS does have a clear supporting role he can fill as a wave controller.

but even then, with that it only seems like supporting wave controllers and light bearers are the only positions which are clearly distinguishable enough from the others for the distinction to mean anything.
 
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