Whitebeard's swastika

[MrCristian]

I'm sure it was discussed before, but I couldn't find anything related so I'm just curious what's this about.
Recently I've came across 2 old pages where Whitebeard was mentioned for the first time and I couldn't believe my eyes, how come I didn't notice this before?
3rd (middle) panel: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-233-page-13.html
Whitebeard's back, you can clearly see the swastika.
First panel: http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-234-page-11.html
Again, you can clearly see it in the flag. I mean... what the hell was Oda about back then? It's clear that he felt bad or something and he changed it later on, but I still can't understand why he would draw it like that.

 

[Shader]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
Swastika itself is a symbol of various good things, Oda clearly was about this stuff (read wiki i linked) but later prolly lots of peoples was complaining and redactor or smthn make him remove it.
Dam u Hitler!

 

[MrCristian]

I know about swastika's , I just didn't know about it being in the manga. I started with the anime, then I read the manga but really quick and didn't put much attention to details. I just wanted to point it out to others and see if there was another meaning to it shown in the manga.
So far I found this: http://img.mangastream.to/manga/one-piece/159/09.jpg original tattoo

 

[DEATHBOTT]

i dont think oda ever revealed why he used a swastika but many mangeka do its as its a symbol in many reliogions and cultures. kishi and kubo have both used them in naruto and bleach. for some reason oda is the only one of the big three who stopped using it in the manga probably because it is pretty noticeable. i personally liked the old version more probably because the new jolly roger is kind of boring and looks like he didnt really try making it look cool. i think kishi kept using it in the manga but the anime adaptions of naruto censored it.

 

[Seafarer]

I came upon that same page a few years ago and did some research after pondering that very same question

Truth is, the svatiska as a symbol is nearly as old as human civilization - going as far back as the Paleolithic. Before the nazi regime gave it its widespread negative connotation, it was (and still is in indian religions, if Wikipedia can be trusted) used as a symbol for good luck, wealth, and prosperity. In modern japan, the symbol is associated with Buddhism and even used on maps to locate temples.

So in Whitebeard's case, I would say Oda (as do other mangakas) picked the symbol for its historical meaning, possibly without giving thought to its darker aspects, which after all are essentially perceived in western culture.

 

[Razh]

I wouldn't give it too much thought. Japanese aren't really burdened by racism problems of the western cultures. So when Kubo draws Ichigo's hilt in the shape of a swastika or when Oda draws a swastika on a pirate flag, it doesn't mean much. Certainly not that he's a nazi. He changed the flag design due to western market, which should be a proof in itself of how important that symbol was to him.

 

[JetPistol]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/卍

Just to clear up any misunderstandings about this "swastika". Oda took it out kindly too avoid any butt hurt feelings that it may inadvertently cause for the international fans. There is a slight difference between the swastika and the manji. The manji is based off of the heavy influence of Buddhism in Japan. It's by no means intended to be racist. Although, I have this really subtle suspicion that the Japanese are obsessed with German culture based off of a couple of works. To name a few (...Bleach, Valvrave, FMA)

 

[Th232]

for all that's worth Oda didn't use a Swastika (crossed "SS" 卐) but a Reverse Swastika (crossed "ZZ" 卍).

The reverse swastika "卍" or "Manji", being a kanji and all, is part of the japanese language. It doesn't mean "Nazi" just because they used it a thousand years after it was commonly used in asia and i think it means good things or balance or something in its original meaning... it's easy to misunderstand without being born in East Asia or being a fan of History Channel and that's probably why they made Oda change it to the Anime Jolly Roger.

It's not uncommon for other mangakas to use that symbol. The main character of Blade of the Immortal (Mugen no Juunin) takes the name Manji (written "卍") and has a big 卍 on his back.

 

[Beatrice]

Quite sure this has absolutely nothing to do with Racism or National Socialism it's a reversed one.
It's not a Swastika but "Sauwastika".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika

 

[RedBerserk]

Like Th232 said, that's a Manji and iirc symbolize something of unknown/unlimited power or potential.

 

[Razh]

Although, I have this really subtle suspicion that the Japanese are obsessed with German culture based off of a couple of works. To name a few (...Bleach, Valvrave, FMA)

Well basing fictional villains on the most notorious villainous organization in history is not something I would call obsession.

It's not like nazi themed villains or characters are predominant in japan's fiction work. They base their stories on everyone and everything.

 

[RichardMNixon]

The Nazis also rotated the symbol 45 degrees (such that if you filled it in, it would be a diamond rather than a square). Whitebeard's is squared on the bottom like the Asian source.

 

[weixiaobao]

Jesus Christ, talk about ignorant.

Is it ignorant on Oda's part for using a symbol that similar to the Nazi's symbol? Well not really a coincident since the Nazi was intentionally used this Indian symbol because they thought the White Aryan came from there. Or is it ignorant for people not to know this religious symbol that common to Buddhism and Hinduism (I would argue Taoism too since in China they mix everything up) and then cry wolf about it? Yes yes yes yes yes yes, freaking yes.

You can go watch old chinese television series with Buddhism and you can see that sign everywhere as a seal to demons.

I almost get detention for drawing it when I just got here on the USA. And when I told my teacher that was a religious symbol. Am I ignorant of WW2 history back then? Sure I was, because I came from vietnam where we didn't spent on that much time studying about it just like usa spent a day in school studying about vietnam war. Is she ignorant about the fact and still insist that she was right after my explanation? YES YES YES YES freaking yes.

Why would billions of people who used this for thousand of year as a symbol of peace should be responsible for the monstrosity of that of the Nazi?

There are plenty in manga/comic too especially old ones. One example is Yu Yu Hakusho.

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

Again, you can clearly see it in the flag. I mean... what the hell was Oda about back then? It's clear that he felt bad or something and he changed it later on, but I still can't understand why he would draw it like that.

I hope now you understand. And use logic when you see one, especially if you see it in Yu Yu Hakusho. I can understand why western audience mistake that in One Piece since Whitebeard is well "White"beard. But I would call is ignorant and racism for not knowing Asian culture if that was your charge on Oda. I really wish Oda didn't change it because then he looks guilty. I really Jinx didn't change its face to purple. I am a progressive liberal. I fight for equality. I don't fight for stupid ignorant sensitivity. Not you really, but some educated people with authority who don't do their damn research but open their goddam mouth and cry wolf about everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganguro

 

[MrCristian]

I was having doubts about it's meaning and I popped (not pooped, OK?! ) the question in order to clarify my doubts. I had knowledge about some of the symbols, but I didn't know in which way they were used in the manga. Now I know, so stop hating. You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!

 

[weixiaobao]

I was having doubts about it's meaning and I popped (not pooped, OK?! ) the question in order to clarify my doubts. I had knowledge about some of the symbols, but I didn't know in which way they were used in the manga. Now I know, so stop hating. You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!

Use your term right, when you say "ignorant." I am ignorant of what? I am not criticizing you per say. I am criticizing the ignorant sensitivity culture.

And even you, you were "ignorant" of the history of this symbol. Hence, I and many had "inform" you of the matter. Beside, from your tone, you said something along the like "what the hell is Oda thinking?" And you used, "he felt bad about something." You already charge him with the crime. Your post was trying to get people to verify this and or assure your judgement in the first place. The educated African American lady have an article ranted on how racist is pokemon. Her tone was even worst than yours.

Yes, accusing someone of racism or ignorant is not a good thing when you were indeed "ignorant" of the issue.

I don't fault you, because you are the norm. Not too many westerners know this. But you are open to criticism, once you open your mouth and think Oda had done something wrong or being ignorant while you, yourself, is ignorant of the matter (like my history teacher).

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 AM ----------

You are being the ignorant one now. Gee!

I don't know how old you are, currently, I am extremely well verse in WWII history and had been this way for more than 8 years. I probably know more about European/American history/culture than you know about Asia history/culture. I probably know more than the average westerner. Consider most Americans can't tell their first 4 presidents. And they probably don't know where Malaysia is on the map.

 

[hokageji]

I don't think the swastika would have influenced or implemented ni the storyline in any form. With that in mind, it would make sense to take it away. With increasing popularity in the US, it would make sense to avoid any controversial aspects that could potentially affect sales, which is why it would be removed.

About racism or ignorance, its not just the usage with the Nazi symbol. If One Piece was globally popular like say, Harry Potter, I am sure the use of swastika would have concerned a lot of religious groups in India as well. After all, Jimmy Hendrix depicting himself as an Indian God raised a lot of protests. Since the symbol itself would have nothing to do with the storyline, Oda would have just gotten rid of it.

 

[weixiaobao]

About racism or ignorance, its not just the usage with the Nazi symbol. If One Piece was globally popular like say, Harry Potter, I am sure the use of swastika would have concerned a lot of religious groups in India as well. After all, Jimmy Hendrix depicting himself as an Indian God raised a lot of protests. Since the symbol itself would have nothing to do with the storyline, Oda would have just gotten rid of it.

This is a good point. But did Oda knew he was going to be big. I meant JR Rowling wrote some part of Harry Potter on a piece of napkins while struggle with poverty.

However, should religions sensor themselves? Because this is after all a religious issue? Did the Hindu and Buddhist responsible for the Holocaust? I meant the KKK used the cross at their crime site. Should the Christian cross be ban?? So why this selective issue?

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 AM ----------

If One Piece was globally popular like say, Harry Potter,

I am not particularly unreasonable. If it is an economic issue, then hell, it is a no brainer to be non offensive when it counts. But to me, I see it as an issue of principle and morality. Would I go out of my way to draw something to offend people after knowing what I know? No, but I will defend the right of people to do this especially if reasons are on their side. I wouldn't want people to stop using the star of David, if some freaking cult are mass murdering people using that symbol.

 

[Ledoke]

This is a good point. But did Oda knew he was going to be big. I meant JR Rowling wrote some part of Harry Potter on a piece of napkins while struggle with poverty.

If I remember correctly Oda was told by the magazine's higher ups to change Whitebeard's jolly roger to the one that the anime used, and he started to draw it that way since the chapter when Shanks meet with Whitebeard. He was already big by that time so I think it's safe to say the change was done in hopes that it would make the manga easier to sell to Europeans/Americans.

 

[MrCristian]

I just wanted to point it out to others and see if there was another meaning to it shown in the manga.

My intention was never to accuse Oda of racism, why on earth would I do that? It seems that I chose my words poorly and it's understandable since I've been up for more than 36 hours, finally got to find something that catches my attention and wanted to point it out to other mangakas.

I am well aware of the fact that svastiskas aren't the symbol for nazism/Hitler and date older than 20th century, but it's the first thing that comes to mind, isn't it? Of course I've studied, maybe not as much as you since I didn't really like to study, but WWI and WWII really intrigued me and I read quite a bit about it. You judged me wrong and I fired back, in the easiest way ("no, you're it!" kind of way). If you wish we can insult each other in a more intellectual way via PM, but that wouldn't be too smart, would it?

 

[Razh]

My intention was never to accuse Oda of racism, why on earth would I do that? It seems that I chose my words poorly and it's understandable since I've been up for more than 36 hours, finally got to find something that catches my attention and wanted to point it out to other mangakas.

I am well aware of the fact that svastiskas aren't the symbol for nazism/Hitler and date older than 20th century, but it's the first thing that comes to mind, isn't it? Of course I've studied, maybe not as much as you since I didn't really like to study, but WWI and WWII really intrigued me and I read quite a bit about it. You judged me wrong and I fired back, in the easiest way ("no, you're it!" kind of way). If you wish we can insult each other in a more intellectual way via PM, but that wouldn't be too smart, would it?

Don't sweat it, some of the members get agitated over nothing here. That's all there is to it.

It's unrealistic to expect everyone who reads One Piece will know everything about it. But that's what these forums are for.