Discussion Why Character Statements Are Just A Meme

[Omnie]

Honestly I have no idea why people even listen to them anymore other than being a fanboy :/?

1. “Meliodas = Mael = Liz = Ludo” (dumb as hell)

2. Ludo himself says he can’t be on par with Mael when it gets closer to noon (literally contradicts #1)

3. Merlin saying Chand / Cus are the strongest demons ( dumb as hell / contradictory / hype tool )

4. Demon King saying Mel is the strongest

Now things that makes 0 sense based on all that

-Cudler being so underwhelming as a whole, but hey he’s the (second) strongest Demon amirite

-Cudler one shot by Mael ( essentially ) and even made a fool by ludo, yet he is still somehow stronger than Mel who is equal to Mael ( apparently ) meaning..

Mael > Cudler > Mel = Mael = u w0t m8?

-Ludo being too scared to attack Meliodas ( who has emotions and isn’t in assault mode ) While he is literally out numbered yet he was equal to Prime Mel with commandment rite?

-People saying Goddess Elizabeth is strong when her only feat is purifying an indura, it’s like people don’t realize that PL doesn’t matter to hacks, just look at Merlin vs Chand / Cusak, it doesn’t mean she’s strong or a good fighter at all

-Escanor is apparently invincible in The One because of Merlins statement now, so now somehow a % of the SD’s power > The SD herself

-Meliodas is apparently the strongest Demon but he lost against the DK and SD (could be said this was because it was an unfair 2v2 however since Elizabeth is well... Elizabeth )

-Mels mere emotions being able to injure the DK like that, and he won’t be able to remain in the mortal world if he gets serious, yet the other people he was so called “equal” to can :/? Just going by those facts he is on the same tier as MOC / the gods

-We clearly see that Merlin can destroy Chandler and Cusack at the same time, but when Prime Mel and Zel was there, she didn’t try to take them on with Arthur and the others ( before he got stabbed ) when she literally could of grabbed Escanor and the other sins to take them on with Arthur ( who in his own rights is probably PL 120-140k ) I’ll let the reason why she didn’t do that be left unspecified ecksdee

———————

Also please when defending Prime Meliodas, people need to remember he wasn’t immortal at this time due to the DK curse, he cannot be both in his so called “Prime ( which never happened cause he never used Indura / Original Magic lol ) while also having the DK curse.

———————

Also as for the Escanor vs Meliodas fallacy, Mels power level at the time was 142k, even if we use his inaccurate scaling feat to Ludo who was 200k ( in a human vessel mind you) this clearly shows he wasn’t Prime Meliodas, and if scaling to Mael who should be 250-300k... you get the picture, he wasn’t only playing around “it would be a waste to kill you ( somehow supposed to be the cruel vile most evil demon *cough not prime cough*) but he was also like... half his original PL and not using OG magic / revenge counter,

this was plot armor for Escanor... if mel won then entire cast is dead :/? he HAD to lose

 

[Ger]

Also please when defending Prime Meliodas, people need to remember he wasn’t immortal at this time due to the DK curse, he cannot be both in his so called “Prime ( which never happened cause he never used Indura / Original Magic lol ) while also having the DK curse.

nobody said prime meliodas was immortal. The argument here is that the way DK described the regression is that he takes away his emotions slowly and he slowly reverts to this terrifying demon in existence blah blah in chapter 184. OG magic meliodas was never mentioned because meliodas already cleared it up that it was his first time awakening to that power. So prime meliodas that were talking about is obviously being revered before he met elizabeth.

well yes you could say he's at his prime if we exclude immortality in chapter 246.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2019 ---

Meliodas is apparently the strongest Demon but he lost against the DK and SD (could be said this was because it was an unfair 2v2 however since Elizabeth is well... Elizabeth

obviously he isn't the strongest demon. DK described him as the most terrifying demon etc. But yes DK and SD were trying to kill their son/daughter so meliodas and elizabeth could not fight back.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2019 ---

in verdict not all character's statements are memes UNLESS they are being contradicted by the future or previous statements. So i don't disagree with you here. I've been saying to a lot of people in this thread that character statements at times are much less reliable than feats.

 

[Seven777]

Its counts towards a characters portrayal, if Nakaba decided to have characters mentioned as being a certain level of strength, then its as good as Nakaba saying it himself, otherwise why bother? Unless its hyperbole like saying someones "invincible" or that they're doing the "impossible" or something like that.

As for Cudler, he aint beat yet, wait til he's dead before calling him a weakling. We all thought Ludo was nothin back in the day despite his 200k PL and look at him now. Ludo was disappointing readers far longer than Cudler has been, give the dude a chance, Nakaba's not one for immediately showcasing a characters abilities, or explaining things, he likes to take his time, sometimes for dozens of chapters.

 

[Ger]

^^ this is what im talking about people don't get that statements gets override by other statements which contradicts one another. Nakaba can be criticize and can be doubted to what he writes for characters dialogue. Yes that is why he's at fault making this not the viewers or the scalers. Hence why feats matter more than statements.

@Omnie already proved many reasons why characters statements are mere evident of nakaba obvious contradicting the previous.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2019 ---

despite that you have no refutation on mael saying "Mel= liz= ludo" which was BS due to the fact he's basically cocksucking ludo's ass for saying he's comparable to him even though ludo already admitted that mael is stronger. Not only that mael did not do anything to that statement about him being a rival to meliodas.

Hence character's statements are mere projection of evidence that can be taken as doubtful vs a feat.

 

[T25]

I don’t agree with the intended implication of “a characters word is the word of the author.” We are being told a story through its characters. If a character is wrong than the characters knowledge was faulty. For instance if mael says that he was stronger than Mel in the past before it is revealed that Mel never actually put forth his best against mael or mael had never heard or seen it himself, is that a mark against nakaba as an author because he portrayed a character with his own level of knowledge and not as an omniscient irrefutable narrator rather than the character he is?

This is something everyone does on a near daily basis of their real lives: question the truthfulness of a statement. Yet it seems that there is a very odd application of this when it comes to those that wish to discuss this story I feel no?

 

[Kay3795]

OG magic meliodas was never mentioned because meliodas already cleared it up that it was his first time awakening to that power.

OG magic has as always been a thing for Meliodas since 3000 years though... Whether it was during his Prime yearz, Stigma years, Peaceful years, First Arc (with the HKs) up to this point.

Just for one reason or the other, he never bothered using his OG.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2019 ---

I don’t agree with the intended implication of “a characters word is the word of the author.” We are being told a story through its characters. If a character is wrong than the characters knowledge was faulty. For instance if mael says that he was stronger than Mel in the past before it is revealed that Mel never actually put forth his best against mael or mael had never heard or seen it himself, is that a mark against nakaba as an author because he portrayed a character with his own level of knowledge and not as an omniscient irrefutable narrator rather than the character he is?

This is something everyone does on a near daily basis of their real lives: question the truthfulness of a statement. Yet it seems that there is a very odd application of this when it comes to those that wish to discuss this story I feel no?

Just go by a case-by-case bases.

DK's word has more weight over Merlin's word pertaining to his sons & every demon under him... so if DK says Meliodas is the stuff of legends amongs legends, & Merlin says the same thing but with the masters, the most credible source to go with is Papa because....

- He's a Demon,
- He's the God of Demons (overseer of all affairs pertaining to his own),
- He is Meliodas' dear Papa & very invested in his son's development,
- He has SEEN and thus KNOWS his Son & his powers, including his OG magic.


- Merlin only heard stuff...

There is just no comparison in which is a more credible source.

Case-by-case > generalities

 

[T25]

OG magic has as always been a thing for Meliodas since 3000 years though... Whether it was during his Prime yearz, Stigma years, Peaceful years, First Arc (with the HKs) up to this point.

Just for one reason or the other, he never bothered using his OG.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 1, 2019 ---

Just go by a case-by-case bases.

DK's word has more weight over Merlin's word pertaining to his sons & every demon under him... so if DK says Meliodas is the stuff of legends amongs legends, & Merlin says the same thing but with the masters, the most credible source to go with is Papa because....

- He's a Demon,
- He's the God of Demons (overseer of all affairs pertaining to his own),
- He is Meliodas' dear Papa & very invested in his son's development,
- He has SEEN and thus KNOWS his Son & his powers, including his OG magic.


- Merlin only heard stuff...

There is just no comparison in which is a more credible source.

Case-by-case > generalities

And I agree. I naturally see things case by case and then try to expand it into a wider view of the story. But because of this I take issue with how those on this forum “critique.” When someone says something they treat it as law and then throw insults or “critiques” when more story is given to refute said statements. I don’t see the issue of a narrative refuting a statement made by characters within the narrative.

Omnies opening sentence seems a great disservice. A statement is made and thus subject to verification. Implication is made and thus patience is necessary to see how it comes to fruition. Statements and implication provide you the opportunity to use your head in contemplating their possibility and truthfulness. Funny enough, though, this leads to a whole other issue concerning interpretation

 

[Kay3795]

And I agree. I naturally see things case by case and then try to expand it into a wider view of the story. But because of this I take issue with how those on this forum “critique.” When someone says something they treat it as law and then throw insults or “critiques” when more story is given to refute said statements. I don’t see the issue of a narrative refuting a statement made by characters within the narrative.

Omnies opening sentence seems a great disservice. A statement is made and thus subject to verification. Implication is made and thus patience is necessary to see how it comes to fruition. Statements and implication provide you the opportunity to use your head in contemplating their possibility and truthfulness. Funny enough, though, this leads to a whole other issue concerning interpretation

I see logic in your assessment but I think OP is also playing a game. These kinds of games could serve the purpose of getting people's attention & forcing them to think a little deeper & more critically.

It forces delusional fanboys or fanatics of any character to get off their comfort zone & change their way of thinking because it is not solidified but rather mercurial.

I've used this tactic before in conjunction with my arguments & then.... I watch the sparks fly.

 

[Demonspeed]

Character statements aren't really the problem when you consider the context and the character itself. The problem is mostly the way fans react to them.

When Hawk says "I am the strongest" do people take it seriously? No.

The first statement is definitely not something you can believe just like that. But Cusack and Chandler being stronger than Meliodas? No, this is not contradictory at all. The thing is that we learned recently that Meliodas has a true Magic that's not Full Counter, and Mel is no match to his father without it. The DK is also incredibly biased when it comes to Mel but it doesn't matter too much here.

Cudler being "underwhelming" by your standards is irrelevant when we know the opponents he is fighting. He is still stronger than all the Demons besides the DK and Meliodas with his true Magic.

And in OP's post itself, there are moments listed which have no statements at all or anything. Just accept that we only got to see a few moments of the HW and it'll stay like that. We get to see feats in real time and then some of you use "statements" which you disregarded before to support a stance when you could just accept reality and move on.

 

[ubw178]

It's not 100% realistic because this is a manga after all. The has to be hype and story development. Meliodas is clearly the strongest but if he fights like he used to do or used his OG power there would be no point in the manga itself. PL are BS and mostly used as a hype maker.

For example, Mel's power at the beginning was around 3k. Now if someone like Gilthunder for example reaches the same PL would he be as strong as Meliodas back then? Of course not.

Zeldris' PL was 61k with Piety, now it should be even lower. How is he able to stand against Ludo who is at 201k? He clearly overwhelmed him with ON.

PL is a mixture of someone's strength, magic and spirit(whatever this means). Fighting capabilities, intellect, strategy etc don't count. Meliodas had the same PL as Gloxinia and Dolor when they fought but he easily overpowered both of them. The reason for that is they only used some shitty magics while he was jumping around cutting their arms. Same goes for Escanor. He is just too OP and all he does is hitting hard or throwing fireballs at enemies. Meliodas, Zeldris and Ludo on the other hand actually know how to fight as we've seen numerous times.

 

[Ger]

OG magic has as always been a thing for Meliodas since 3000 years though... Whether it was during his Prime yearz, Stigma years, Peaceful years, First Arc (with the HKs) up to this point.

Just for one reason or the other, he never bothered using his OG.

It's been within meliodas since he was born but HE NEVER awakened it to where he usually used it in the war. Hence why he was hesitant on using it because it has its consequences.

 

[OtakuFreak]

It comes down to personal interpretation naturally, but some statements about a character's power are more believable than others if you include some context or common sense to it. For example, Merlin's statement seems silly considering she isn't fully knowledgeable about the DC's power hierarchy whilst someone like Mael is (for the GC's)

I only have the effort & care to address the Elizabeth points (just an FYI):

-People saying Goddess Elizabeth is strong when her only feat is purifying an indura, it’s like people don’t realize that PL doesn’t matter to hacks, just look at Merlin vs Chand / Cusak, it doesn’t mean she’s strong or a good fighter at all

Obviously PL doesn't take into consideration the nuances of abilities which can be referred to as ''hacks'' or ''unfair'' since PL is simply a numerical value of raw strength/power/willpower. Individuals like Zeldris, Gowther & Merlin are perfect examples of how OP abilities allow them to contest and defeat opponents whom are much stronger than them naturally if given the correct circumstances, but at the same time I don't see how the ''hack'' argument applies to Elizabeth?

Yes, ark & purification itself does hold an advantageous position against anything demonic or evil in nature since it consists of light but at the same time to suggest that Elizabeth's greatest feat is down to a pure ''hacked'' ability is silly, she only accomplished the feat of stalemating 2 Indura's because her magic is THAT powerful. Plus, purification being a ''hack'' ability is simply an opinion, since there's been no evidence in the manga that suggests it has higher effectiveness that any other ''ark'' technique against demons.

If Elizabeth wasn't a strong or ''good fighter'' at all then how did she ever achieve power comparable to Meliodas, Mael & Ludoshel? Sure, it's fine to question her skills in comparison to other characters she supposedly is equal to, but to suggest she has none at all is silly considering its practically impossible to reach top-tier status if you're incapable of fighting.

Also, even if you disagree with the Indura feat, Nakaba (the author) has implemented an objective system into the manga which only cements Elizabeth's strength among the Goddesses. He confirmed that the expression of a Goddesses wings is equivalent to their overall strength (i.e PL) and its easily seen that Elizabeth's wings rival or are equal to Ludoshel's/Mael's - people whom she rivals, supporting the other statement.

1. “Meliodas = Mael = Liz = Ludo” (dumb as hell)

It really isn't, I just believe people are salty/mad that other characters beside Mael can actually challenge Meliodas.

 

[Ger]

It really isn't, I just believe people are salty/mad that other characters beside Mael can actually challenge Meliodas.

It really is. You're implying ludo= The One or late morning mael.

It contradicts the previous statement of maels powee surpassing his own. Then we have a statements of mael being comparable tto meliodas but yet another statement says ludo and liz are comparable.

However this chapter proves zeldris own darkness overcame ludos light and did not even bother at looking at him. Zeldris so far is doing close battle in hand to hand against mael.

Ludo who hasnt done to be comparable to meliodas who OVERPOWERED DKs magic. Not only that mael is doing something which ludo cant do and not only that ludo wasworried about mael when he was being sucked in.

So prime meliodas>>>ludo or Elizabeth. Unless u show me consistent statement or feat then your argument is invalid.

 

[T25]

It really is. You're implying ludo= The One or late morning mael.

It contradicts the previous statement of maels powee surpassing his own. Then we have a statements of mael being comparable tto meliodas but yet another statement says ludo and liz are comparable.

However this chapter proves zeldris own darkness overcame ludos light and did not even bother at looking at him. Zeldris so far is doing close battle in hand to hand against mael.

Ludo who hasnt done to be comparable to meliodas who OVERPOWERED DKs magic. Not only that mael is doing something which ludo cant do and not only that ludo wasworried about mael when he was being sucked in.

So prime meliodas>>>ludo or Elizabeth. Unless u show me consistent statement or feat then your argument is invalid.

The whole issue people have on the “Mel=eli=ludo” etc. the topic of that conversation was why Gowther chose mael. Power and role were aspects that were taken into account yet people merely want to argue that characters are math equations instead of characters and disregard context at whim or due to inability. How often did these four fight each other for there to be a comparison of the utmost accuracy? How much did they know of the others abilities? If Mel played so often would others know how truly powerful he was? If Eli never showed the extent of her own power would others know it’s extent? Ludo? Mael? They use what they know and come to a conclusion. Eli, ludo and mael were some where in the range of power they knew Mel had. In terms of role they were hegemons among their clan the same as Mel. The top class. Many call the comparison stupid but that was what some of these characters can derive from what they did know as it is impossible for them to truly know granted there were things they didn’t know.

 

[Ger]

The whole issue people have on the “Mel=eli=ludo” etc. the topic of that conversation was why Gowther chose mael. Power and role were aspects that were taken into account yet people merely want to argue that characters are math equations instead of characters and disregard context at whim or due to inability. How often did these four fight each other for there to be a comparison of the utmost accuracy? How much did they know of the others abilities? If Mel played so often would others know how truly powerful he was? If Eli never showed the extent of her own power would others know it’s extent? Ludo? Mael? They use what they know and come to a conclusion. Eli, ludo and mael were some where in the range of power they knew Mel had. In terms of role they were hegemons among their clan the same as Mel. The top class. Many call the comparison stupid but that was what some of these characters can derive from what they did know as it is impossible for them to truly know granted there were things they didn’t know.

Right and in terms of scaling that statements gets contradicted. Feats and consistent statements overrides that statements.

 

[OtakuFreak]

It really is. You're implying ludo= The One or late morning mael.

No one is implying that, this is just your interpretation of the statement.

Ludoshel himself stated that he had no hope of reaching Mael when it came close to noon, implying that when he was in his base or outside noon (or close to it) he was comparable to Mael, which supports the statement of comparability.

Base Mael = Ludoshel, Elizabeth & Prime Meliodas.

 

[Ger]

Ludoshel himself stated that he had no hope of reaching Mael when it came close to noon, implying that when he was in his base or outside noon (or close to it) he was comparable to Mael, which supports the statement of comparability.

Base Mael = Ludoshel, Elizabeth & Prime Meliodas.

You see the argument here? You're contradicting what has been said and you're going in the route of slippery slope which none was stated base mael was equal to prime meliodas. Not even that this chapter proves meliodas is still way superior even than mael who uses grace. AND YES ludo is weaker than post noon mael due to his ability not being able to do anything against zeldris who pays no attention to what so ever.

So you either taking a statement which has many contradictions or you're just wanking a character without properscaling.


I will make a thread on the WHOLE idea of this scaling and whether characters statements should be consistent with feats.

 

[Arjuna]

Contradiction in character statement is not a new thing in manga history.

Ft had lot of contradiction in character statements regarding Zeref, Acnologia,END and Spriggans.


But in recent times NNT has probably the most character contradictions.


That being said I believe and for the sake of the quality of the manga Elizabeth=Meliodas in magic power (Elizabeth still hasn't awakened her innate magic which is bound to put her on the level of Og Magic of Meliodas).

 

[T25]

Contradiction in character statement is not a new thing in manga history.

Ft had lot of contradiction in character statements regarding Zeref, Acnologia,END and Spriggans.


But in recent times NNT has probably the most character contradictions.


That being said I believe and for the sake of the quality of the manga Elizabeth=Meliodas in magic power (Elizabeth still hasn't awakened her innate magic which is bound to put her on the level of Og Magic of Meliodas).

Is there something wrong with contradiction in character statement?

 

[Arjuna]

Is there something wrong with contradiction in character statement?

Did I say so?

In universe characters make lot of mistakes not just in NNT so there is no wrong.