Voting Round 3 Xehanort vs. Son Goku

[SonOfDaws]

His training for UI included having an empty mind. So in UI mode it won't work at all.

Yeah, when it comes to raw power and skill though, I don't even think Goku needs UI. It's just that if Xehanort so much as mentioning Super Saiyan 3... I think Goku's famous last words would be something along the lines of "wanna see??? You're gonna LOVE this." And Goku would be correct... hence the problem

Assuming Xehanort can't hurt another person as a part of the battle, I think current Vegeta being a lot more cold, ruthless, and no nonsense compared to Goku means he would stand a much better chance against Xehanort. He might not think Xehanort is worth showing his more strenuous forms to and might just one-shot him if provoked instead.

 

[lakhan220]

Honestly, I don't know about all the KH3 craziness that Xehanort can do there and I seriously respect @Juviii 's campaign, so I'll provide a legitimate explanation on why I think Xehanort wins this match-up despite being such a meme.

In large part, it comes down to what Sky touched *upon:



Goku is a very intelligent fighter and Ultra Instinct exemplifies and amplifies Goku's sort of intelligence.

However, he's up against an opponent, Xehanort, that without a doubt is a less talented fighter but is generally very intelligent and can prey upon Goku's character flaws (general stupidity, arrogance, and carelessness) as well as one particular inherent flaw with most of Goku's power, reliance on negative emotion (anger to be specific).

In fact, not only has Xehanort done this before, but he's also done this multiple times before and has done so to such great effect to a person with similar flaws as Goku, Terra, that he was able to take possession of that victim's body which gave Xehanort his more iconic appearances, bind up the bodies form soul, and use that to aid him in battle too.

Terra powering himself up using anger, very much like going super saiyan in Dragon Ball.

The result:

Xehanort taking over his body.

What became of the victim's soul:

Even after the body and soul(s) were forcibly made separate, (something that could be among the techniques Vegeta is on the path to mastering), both the body and the soul that was actually freed remained subjugated to Xehanort and primarily retained his essence after losing his memories

It is also worth noting that the victim's soul was so effectively taken over that the multiple versions of Xehanort, even the divided heart and body, could still summon and use the victim's soul to fight for him.

All that being said, I don't think any of this would be relevant if Goku stayed in his base, god ki, or UI forms... Even without any transformations and based off of what I know of Xehanort's immense power pre-KH3... it wouldn't even be a battle. Not even kind of, the power level is so great that I think the toughest part of the battle would be getting Goku to even take Xehanort seriously enough to even lift a finger and when he does Nort-y would be done. Annihilated. Could literally be wiped from existence.

All Goku would have to do is not try to transform into a super saiyan... that's all. Just don't transform or give into Xehanort provocations. Could easily beat him as long as he doesn-

But that was a special case. He had to transform to have chance at beating Buu. If Goku was up against a much weaker opponent, then surely he wou-

Literally feeds the guy after the slightest provocation. In fact, he feeds him to death.

In a world like Dragon Ball's with fights that are typically more physical than mental, Goku is on the level of the gods, but against an opponent that exploits the heart and mind, Goku is putty in his hands. Very dangerous, explosive, and loud putty, but putty none the less.

Votekill Kakka carrot cake

Correct me if i m wrong, but tht transformation using anger had malice intended towards xeonhart (dark aura-normally evident of malice in games) which he manipulated , didn't he ? Basically Darkness is what he manipulates.
Why would goku's anger which is neither malice (so not negative) nor darkness be susceptible to takeover of xeonhart ?

Even before we begin all tht, Xeonhart's all powers r based on how the universe in Kingdom hearts was created with some 7 something holy light and 14 dark something . Basically the creation and condition of tht universe gives him the power. On other hand, DB universe in itself has its own rules as in anger which is not malice (so not exactly negative) isn't exactly manipulatable which was evident from babidi's control of vegeta and not goku. U can argue vegeta was easy candy.

Then DB universe also shows saiyans resisiting control too. And not sure how exactly decision was reached tht DB verse control is weaker and not the fortitude of fighter to resist it (babidi). Basically what i m questioning is using kingdom hearts universes advantages and haxes , if xeonhart can go on controlling stuffs (whose prime requirement is darkness and based on how tht universe was created), why can't DB universe protect its own based on its concepts where
1-purity of goku is well known
2-Anger (negative emotion has its crux in light and darkness both) and goku's isn't based on malice or in other words darkness.

I would basically call this a battle of basic concepts tht arises from the creation of respective worlds. If kingdom hearts universe creation gives haxes, DB universe in itself nullifies those haxes too. So, before just giving all advantages of hax to xeonhart which arises from the concepts, it is primarily necessary to establish which world will have its rules applied and is a superior one ?

Also to answer to what terra used was
Empathetic darkness manipulation - Using emotions to amplify darkness (Xeonhart manipulated this darkness)
Empathetic light manipulation - using emotions to amplify light (Xeon hart can't manipulate or control this)

It also has its own set of diff names for outraged stuffs too. Came across this on wikia. Any game player here who can confirm this ?

Dark Energy Manipulation when outraged - under empathetic darkness manipulation
Solar Energy Manipulation when outraged - under empathetic light manipulation (Goku falls under this, which means he is immune to xeonhart's manipulation as per rules of his own universe, which states xeonhart manipulates darkness)

So, if this is so, the argument tht anger in SSJ will be manipulated and used stays nullified .
Also, if it isn't true, even then if xeonhart's world doesn't differentiate anger having source in darkness or light, in DB, we had so during buu arc, where multiple times, goku vs vegeta, bad buu vs good buu had this portrayed in form of auras light or dark in manga and in anime with diff colors.

If hax of kingdom hearts universe overpowers xeonhart, concepts of DB makes goku immune to those haxes.

 

[Sky]

Any kind of negative emotion was enough to trigger darkness. Even jealousy or envy.

Even if we cancel all that this still just let's Xehanort stop time and unlock Gokus heart.

 

[Hardy]

Any kind of negative emotion was enough to trigger darkness. Even jealousy or envy.

Even if we cancel all that this still just let's Xehanort stop time and unlock Gokus heart.

Goku has absolutely not a single dark thought in his mind, we know this thanks to Akkuman.

Goku fought a dude that stopped time already, and has gotten even absurdly stronger since (while we learnt that once you are too strong you don't give a fuck about time stopping).

 

[Sky]

Goku fought a dude that stopped time already, and has gotten even absurdly stronger since (while we learnt that once you are too strong you don't give a fuck about time stopping).

Hits ability isn't even remotely similar to any time spell XH has.
Goku just reacted to the time SKIP which was barely a fracture of a second. That isn't the same at all.
That and Goku being vulnerable to magic to begin with because it is a foreign concept to him.

 

[Hardy]

Hits ability isn't even remotely similar to any time spell XH has.
Goku just reacted to the time SKIP which was barely a fracture of a second. That isn't the same at all.
That and Goku being vulnerable to magic to begin with because it is a foreign concept to him.

Does it matter?Jiren ignored it completely. Vegito ignored being a chocolate. Vegeta wasn't mind controlled by Babidi.

Why is it a foreign concept? Even volume 1 and 2 of Dragonball have magic on it.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

What would a heart unlock be, btw? Specifically talking, does it have any impact on someone pure?

How do you even beat Kingdom Hearts as a player?

 

[lakhan220]

Any kind of negative emotion was enough to trigger darkness. Even jealousy or envy.

Even if we cancel all that this still just let's Xehanort stop time and unlock Gokus heart.

Darkness - key thing here. Goku's is not darkness like Vegeta's or Frieza's.


Again, concept of respective universes. Needs tht special fabrication to be able to do tht. And i heard goku fought in stopped time too

Even then , let me bring another aspect here.
He needs spell to cast meaning preparation time for it. Even for stopping time, he needs to use his blade or something i saw in video . It is not instant stop like code geass lulu's fake brother.
Reaction speed of goku is better, so won't give time for spell preparations.

As long as he needs to prepare for spells, he is at huge disadvantage.

Goku being vulnerable to magic to begin with because it is a foreign concept to him.

Not exactly. Babidi had magic too. And like i said before, concepts of respective worlds. If KH gives haxes in form of spells, the counterpart of him in DB world is babidi with magics and DB world also gives them protection despite magic being used on them.

So DB world mechanics nullifies KH world's haxes basically.

 

[Sky]

Does it matter?Jiren ignored it completely. Vegito ignored being a chocolate. Vegeta wasn't mind controlled by Babidi.

Why is it a foreign concept? Even volume 1 and 2 of Dragonball have magic on it.

No idea how Boos ability works. Apparently it doesn't kill power levels.
He fought it hard. But it still "worked" to some extent.

If Moro hadn't randomly turned into an power hungry idiot Goku would still cry.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

What would a heart unlock be, btw? Specifically talking, does it have any impact on someone pure?

How do you even beat Kingdom Hearts as a player?

Turn you into a Nobody and a Heartless. Both beings a keyblade wielder can control.

Goku doesn't have a keyblade. It is that simple.

 

[Hardy]

No idea how Boos ability works. Apparently it doesn't kill power levels.
He fought it hard. But it still "worked" to some extent.

If Moro hadn't randomly turned into an power hungry idiot Goku would still cry.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

Turn you into a Nobody and a Heartless. Both beings a keyblade wielder can control.

Goku doesn't have a keyblade. It is that simple.

Nothing kills powerlevels. Just real life logic, but that's not a thing here.

Right, but to be split into Heartless/Nobody you need darkness within you, which Goku has none.

 

[Sky]

Again, concept of respective universes. Needs tht special fabrication to be able to do tht. And i heard goku fought in stopped time too

Sorry but I disagree.
Because then this is the truth for every single character here. Meaning Madara couldn't use Ninjutsu as the concept of chakra based energy isn't known wherever they are fighting. Aizen would be powerless as there are no Reishi anywhere else.
Then characters like Goku just win by default because he has the most muscle mass.

Also he did not fight in stopped time.
Time skip =/= Time stop.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

Right, but to be split into Heartless/Nobody you need darkness within you, which Goku has none.

No you do not. Sora literally turned himself into a Heartless while unlocking his own heart.

 

[Hardy]

Sorry but I disagree.
Because then this is the truth for every single character here. Meaning Madara couldn't use Ninjutsu as the concept of chakra based energy isn't known wherever they are fighting. Aizen would be powerless as there are no Reishi anywhere else.
Then characters like Goku just win by default because he has the most muscle mass.

Also he did not fight in stopped time.
Time skip =/= Time stop.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

No you do not. Sora literally turned himself into a Heartless while unlocking his own heart.

Was Sora ever stated to be pure hearted, with no darkness? He has several tantrums, can't control his anger and is even extremely depressed at one point.

 

[lakhan220]

Turn you into a Nobody and a Heartless. Both beings a keyblade wielder can control.

Goku doesn't have a keyblade. It is that simple.

Princess of lights couldn't be turned into heartless because light and no darkness in them

And nobodies r created from corruption of hearts and lost hearts to darkness. Again not applicable to goku. So, xeonhart can't do any of tht to him.

Because then this is the truth for every single character here. Meaning Madara couldn't use Ninjutsu as the concept of chakra based energy isn't known wherever they are fighting. Aizen would be powerless as there are no Reishi anywhere else.
Then characters like Goku just win by default because he has the most muscle mass.

But they were given respective advantages based on their universes.

Similarly, as i said if KH world is giving them the haxes, DB is also nullifying those haxes with their own concepts. If we allow one world's concepts of power, then similarly, the other world's concepts shld be allowed too.

For example - word `magic`

And sorry, but there is absolutely no time stop as a concept, just time slowed infinitely. But let's not get into physics here.

 

[SonOfDaws]

Correct me if i m wrong, but tht transformation using anger had malice intended towards xeonhart (dark aura-normally evident of malice in games) which he manipulated , didn't he ? Basically Darkness is what he manipulates.
Why would goku's anger which is neither malice (so not negative) nor darkness be susceptible to takeover of xeonhart ?

Even before we begin all tht, Xeonhart's all powers r based on how the universe in Kingdom hearts was created with some 7 something holy light and 14 dark something . Basically the creation and condition of tht universe gives him the power. On other hand, DB universe in itself has its own rules as in anger which is not malice (so not exactly negative) isn't exactly manipulatable which was evident from babidi's control of vegeta and not goku. U can argue vegeta was easy candy.

Then DB universe also shows saiyans resisiting control too. And not sure how exactly decision was reached tht DB verse control is weaker and not the fortitude of fighter to resist it (babidi). Basically what i m questioning is using kingdom hearts universes advantages and haxes , if xeonhart can go on controlling stuffs (whose prime requirement is darkness and based on how tht universe was created), why can't DB universe protect its own based on its concepts where
1-purity of goku is well known
2-Anger (negative emotion has its crux in light and darkness both) and goku's isn't based on malice or in other words darkness.

I would basically call this a battle of basic concepts tht arises from the creation of respective worlds. If kingdom hearts universe creation gives haxes, DB universe in itself nullifies those haxes too. So, before just giving all advantages of hax to xeonhart which arises from the concepts, it is primarily necessary to establish which world will have its rules applied and is a superior one ?

Also to answer to what terra used was
Empathetic darkness manipulation - Using emotions to amplify darkness (Xeonhart manipulated this darkness)
Empathetic light manipulation - using emotions to amplify light (Xeon hart can't manipulate or control this)

It also has its own set of diff names for outraged stuffs too. Came across this on wikia. Any game player here who can confirm this ?

Dark Energy Manipulation when outraged - under empathetic darkness manipulation
Solar Energy Manipulation when outraged - under empathetic light manipulation (Goku falls under this, which means he is immune to xeonhart's manipulation as per rules of his own universe, which states xeonhart manipulates darkness)

So, if this is so, the argument tht anger in SSJ will be manipulated and used stays nullified .
Also, if it isn't true, even then if xeonhart's world doesn't differentiate anger having source in darkness or light, in DB, we had so during buu arc, where multiple times, goku vs vegeta, bad buu vs good buu had this portrayed in form of auras light or dark in manga and in anime with diff colors.

If hax of kingdom hearts universe overpowers xeonhart, concepts of DB makes goku immune to those haxes.

There is a bit of clash and ambiguity between the mechanics of each universe and so figuring out how they interconnect is important in all these character interactions, however, it seems to me that the only functional way to handle these interactions is to accept that the characters have to exist in the same place for this to happen and therefore the rules stated in each of the original worlds/universes/systems are just different ways to view the same shared world/universes/system that the characters must be in to battle. To put that differently, looking at our world using psychology and looking at our world using biology are two different ways to view the same world. That's how we have to treat DB's rules and Kingdom Hearts' rules.


That said, I believe we may have to do this for something like time stop (though I suspect these two are just going by the same name and functioning differently), but I don't think we have to for the issue of light(KH definition), dark(KH), purity(DB), positivity, and negativity because all five things are closely related different things:

Light and dark are energies in the KH universe that are often associated with positivity and negativity, but neither is necessarily negative. Outside of a destined few, 7 princesses of light, or those who have had their light or darkness forcibly removed or extracted, everyone has both light and darkness in their heart(soul) and both are necessary in the world. So, to connect this with DB, it would seem like Majin Buu went through some sort of unique process to expel the darkness in him or perhaps just a lot of the darkness and just all of the evil. However, Goku went through no such process.

That does bring us to another point on purity. While purity is typically thought of a primarily a good thing and one can make a case that Goku is pure good, Kid Buu who is explicitly state to be pure was shown to be able to manipulate the super spirit bomb, something only able to be manipulated by the pure of heart. Kid Buu however was stated to be pure evil, implying wholeness of one's heart is the deciding factor and not the actual morality of it.

To summarize, despite its association with anger, KH darkness doesn't equate to negativity and, despite Goku being pure and presumably pure good of heart, DB purity doesn't equate with positivity.

Even as what DB very well may consider to be purely good, Goku's has darkness and anger and, as a result, can be manipulated by Xehanort.

 

[Hardy]

DB purity doesn't equate with positivity.

Akkuman

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

Goku has none of those otherwise Akkuman would had killed him.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021 ---

Btw daws at no point does the manga state that you need a pure heart to control the genki dama, as far as I know.

 

[Lambu]

Akkuman

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

Goku has none of those otherwise Akkuman would had killed him.

Honestly that was another sign of Toriyama screwing up his own script, since after that statement Tambourine killed Krillin, Goku was overwhelmed by vengeance and went after him to kill him... thats not very pure imo.

So Akkuman's attack would have killed him after Krillins death? It should, another thing would be Toriyama denying the nature of his own characters.

 

[Hardy]

Honestly that was another sign of Toriyama screwing up his own script, since after that statement Tambourine killed Krillin, Goku was overwhelmed by vengeance and went after him to kill him... thats not very pure imo.

So Akkuman's attack would have killed him after Krillins death? It should, another thing would be Toriyama denying the nature of his own characters.

Goku had already been an angry monkey boy before. It may be an instinctual reflex rather than something from his HEART tm

 

[Lambu]

Goku had already been an angry monkey boy before. It may be an instinctual reflex rather than something from his HEART tm

Yeah he doesn't have malice in his heart by default, what I mean is that those dark emotions could happen in Goku and Xehanort's hax looks like something way stronger than Babidi's magic, which only could control straight up evil hearts.

Anyway wasn't the "Super Saiyan gets triggered by rage" retconed in Super aswell? Now it is something like "concentrating ki in the back" or something lol

 

[Juviii]

"Heart Purity (also known as purity of the heart) is the personality trait of some of the characters in the Dragon Ball franchise. It effectively means that the person is either pure good or pure evil, without any mixtures between the two, whatsoever. A character with this trait is said to be "pure of heart." This personality trait is a prerequisite to being able to use - and being resistant to - some techniques and abilities in the franchise."

This is the category Goku falls into. As stated it is resistant so some techniques aka techniques that will need darkness. Enough said. He can't be controlled and he is stronger. Simple as that.

 

[Nie Li]

His power level surpasses morality.

 

[Hardy]

His power level surpasses morality.

Well this fight against Akkuman happens immediately after the arc in which he commits the premeditated murder of a whole army so... Maybe.