Voting Round 3 Xehanort vs. Son Goku

[Lambu]

Spiky boy trashing centuries of philosophy with his power alone.

 

[SonOfDaws]

Akkuman

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2021 ---

Goku has none of those otherwise Akkuman would had killed him.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2021 ---

Btw daws at no point does the manga state that you need a pure heart to control the genki dama, as far as I know.

Doesn't Akkuman only weaponize negativity and evil?

I'm kind of going off of memory on the spirit bomb myself. I guess that was a bit of a tangent anyhow since I was just saying that I thought it implied the same thing you're saying about Akkuman's attack: DB defines Goku as being pure good.

However...

"Heart Purity (also known as purity of the heart) is the personality trait of some of the characters in the Dragon Ball franchise. It effectively means that the person is either pure good or pure evil, without any mixtures between the two, whatsoever. A character with this trait is said to be "pure of heart." This personality trait is a prerequisite to being able to use - and being resistant to - some techniques and abilities in the franchise."

This is the category Goku falls into. As stated it is resistant so some techniques aka techniques that will need darkness. Enough said. He can't be controlled and he is stronger. Simple as that.

Agree with all but the conclusion. Yes, I think Goku is pure good according to DB rules and that means he has no evil in his heart, however, KH darkness isn't evil, just associated with it. According to KH's ruleset, except in a select few cases, a pure good heart will have darkness in it.

According to both KH and DB's rulesets, a pure good person is allowed to get angry despite anger being an emotion that KH considers to be a darkness associated emotion.

 

[Seven777]

Terra takes Aurora's heart, and she has no darkness within her as a princess of heart.
If Goku is really %100 pure then instead of turning into a heartless he'll just fall into a coma like Kairi, either way its a win for Xehanort

 

[lakhan220]

There is a bit of clash and ambiguity between the mechanics of each universe and so figuring out how they interconnect is important in all these character interactions, however, it seems to me that the only functional way to handle these interactions is to accept that the characters have to exist in the same place for this to happen and therefore the rules stated in each of the original worlds/universes/systems are just different ways to view the same shared world/universes/system that the characters must be in to battle. To put that differently, looking at our world using psychology and looking at our world using biology are two different ways to view the same world. That's how we have to treat DB's rules and Kingdom Hearts' rules.


That said, I believe we may have to do this for something like time stop (though I suspect these two are just going by the same name and functioning differently), but I don't think we have to for the issue of light(KH definition), dark(KH), purity(DB), positivity, and negativity because all five things are closely related different things:

Light and dark are energies in the KH universe that are often associated with positivity and negativity, but neither is necessarily negative. Outside of a destined few, 7 princesses of light, or those who have had their light or darkness forcibly removed or extracted, everyone has both light and darkness in their heart(soul) and both are necessary in the world. So, to connect this with DB, it would seem like Majin Buu went through some sort of unique process to expel the darkness in him or perhaps just a lot of the darkness and just all of the evil. However, Goku went through no such process.

That does bring us to another point on purity. While purity is typically thought of a primarily a good thing and one can make a case that Goku is pure good, Kid Buu who is explicitly state to be pure was shown to be able to manipulate the super spirit bomb, something only able to be manipulated by the pure of heart. Kid Buu however was stated to be pure evil, implying wholeness of one's heart is the deciding factor and not the actual morality of it.

To summarize, despite its association with anger, KH darkness doesn't equate to negativity and, despite Goku being pure and presumably pure good of heart, DB purity doesn't equate with positivity.

Even as what DB very well may consider to be purely good, Goku's has darkness and anger and, as a result, can be manipulated by Xehanort.

Points abt spirit bomb and tht purity has been answered by 3i and hardy. So, let me concentrate myself on the verse part.

Hmm, aren't u contradicting urself here ?

1-U applied KH's rule of few selective individuals having pure hearts and no darkness, but r denying won't apply to goku and he would have darkness as per KH rule ? As per KH, few select cases in Db verse equates to Goku since toriyama specifically made it a point to be conveyed multiple times tht he has no emotions associated from darkness, which is the main weapon of xeonhart. manipulate emotions related to darkness.

Let me put it other way. if KH universe equates people have to have darkness in the heart bar few cases, DB verse nullifies tht and makes Goku tht select few cases.

And closely related, not necessarily same those 5 things u mentioned. Same as all living things have soul, but not necessarily of same species.

2- Let's go reverse route of KH darkness doesn't equate negativity and GOKU is not entirely pure and xeonhart manipulates him. if KH verse is giving Xeonhart the hax in form of taking heart, DB verse in itself has shown tht characters manipulated by magic can shrug it off. Keyword being `Magic and manipulation`. So, once again, if KH verse has hax in magic and manipulation, DB verse protects its characters by being able t overpower through those magic and manipulation.

My point being, The contradiction i mentioned is u only r giving leeway to haxes of KH world but nullifying the advantages and protection the world and concept of DB gives to Goku.

The reason why we have to use verses here is because Xeonhart's power unlike others is heavily relied on creation if KH verse's origin and the parameters in it. Tht is why the verses have to step in

Tht also brings me to one more question I asked. It says to use any of his spells, xeonhart needs to cast it and time for preparation. It isn't instantaneous, which heavily works against Xeonhart here.

Yeah he doesn't have malice in his heart by default, what I mean is that those dark emotions could happen in Goku and Xehanort's hax looks like something way stronger than Babidi's magic, which only could control straight up evil hearts.

Anyway wasn't the "Super Saiyan gets triggered by rage" retconed in Super aswell? Now it is something like "concentrating ki in the back" or something lol

Can we get how tht decision was reached and on basis of what parameters ?
Bibidi's magic too find a shrek of darkness...even a very tiny bit and it amplifies and control fighters and yet vegeta had broken out of it. So, daws, once again, DB verse will protect its fighter from KH world's hax.

Coming back to you lambu, KH verse's magic user's parallel in DB verse is Bibidi or babidi. Instead of attributing it to the weakness of bibidi tht just vegeta and buu broke out of their manipulation, can't reverse be true too ? Crediting those 2 for having tht mental fortitude and overcoming tht manipulation and breaking free .
My point being, if u want to establish bibidi's manipulation is weaker, give some explanations as to why and how it is weak instead of generalized statement, mate.

Terra takes Aurora's heart, and she has no darkness within her as a princess of heart.
If Goku is really %100 pure then instead of turning into a heartless he'll just fall into a coma like Kairi, either way its a win for Xehanort

For tht, taking of heart and implanting of his own like xeonhart i think is point u r trying to make.
But let's not forget, if KH verse is giving hax in tht form, DB verse is protecting their fighters in form of them retaining strength and power despite magic used on them and they even being able to overpower and outthrow the manipulation completely. Keyword - magic as KH's whole world is magic and DB has it as one of the forces.

Basically resistance to magic in a different form. And which verse's law will prevail here will decide things. Because like i explained above unlike other verses where the creation and the concept of tht verse is not tht prominent, KH heavily relies on it in every form.
And once again, the question i stated above.....preparation time to cast spell. Goku doesn't need it.

 

[Lambu]

Can we get how tht decision was reached and on basis of what parameters ?
Bibidi's magic too find a shrek of darkness...even a very tiny bit and it amplifies and control fighters and yet vegeta had broken out of it. So, daws, once again, DB verse will protect its fighter from KH world's hax.

Coming back to you lambu, KH verse's magic user's parallel in DB verse is Bibidi or babidi. Instead of attributing it to the weakness of bibidi tht just vegeta and buu broke out of their manipulation, can't reverse be true too ? Crediting those 2 for having tht mental fortitude and overcoming tht manipulation and breaking free .
My point being, if u want to establish bibidi's manipulation is weaker, give some explanations as to why and how it is weak instead of generalized statement, mate.

Of course, just read the continuation of my statement after the comma...

Yeah he doesn't have malice in his heart by default, what I mean is that those dark emotions could happen in Goku and Xehanort's hax looks like something way stronger than Babidi's magic, which only could control straight up evil hearts.

 

[lakhan220]

Of course, just read the continuation of my statement after the comma...

looks like, could be ?

 

[Lambu]

looks like, could be ?

Babidi's magic is not a "could be", he straight up can only control the evil hearts alone. I said Xehanort's hax looks stronger because he can take control through simple negative emotions.

 

[Hardy]

Babidi's magic is not a "could be", he straight up can only control the evil hearts alone. I said Xehanort's hax looks stronger because he can take control through simple negative emotions.

Is it ever specified? Thought it worked pretty much like Xehanort's, it's just that Vegeta was too strong for it.

 

[Lambu]

Is it ever specified? Thought it worked pretty much like Xehanort's, it's just that Vegeta was too strong for it.

Vegeta had an evil heart unlike Goku and Gohan, he flaunted just that before Dabura so Babidi would try controlling him. Piccolo also stated he was definitely going to hell before he suicided to try kill Buu.
He resisted the mind control thanks to his pride and for not being completely evil (he was already changing), not because he was powerful.

Xehanort on the other hand can control through negative emotions alone, something that even pure hearted characters can go through.

Im not saying Goku cannot resist Xehanort's control, Im saying that Xehanort could pull it off if Goku takes the bait. Of course this implies the original SuperSaiyan definition holds and not the retcon of Super... "Concentrating ki in the back"... lol.

 

[Hardy]

He resisted the mind control thanks to his pride and for not being completely evil (he was already changing), not because he was powerful.

Xehanort on the other hand can control through negative emotions alone, something that even pure hearted characters can go through.

Im not saying Goku cannot resist Xehanort's control, Im saying that Xehanort could pull it off if Goku takes the bait. Of course this implies the original SuperSaiyan definition holds and not the retcon of Super... "Concentrating ki in the back"... lol.

The not being completely evil was never specified, is what I'm saying. His mind power could be straight up linked to his power, why not?

Lakhan already brought up cases that resisted Xehanort's mind control, though.

In any case, the more I think about it the lamer this matchup is. Either Goku wins because big number or X wins because he can only be defeated with a keyblade which only KH characters have, amazing.

 

[Lambu]

The not being completely evil was never specified, is what I'm saying. His mind power could be straight up linked to his power, why not?

Him not being completely evil was revealed when Porunga revived him in the final battle against Kid Buu. He was clearly evil at the beggining of Z tho since the genkidama hurt him.
Also linking Strength of Mind to Power sounds like a joke when looking at the characters' decisions and thought process

Anyway Im derailing, my point is Xehanort's hax is stronger than Babidi's since its proved to take good hearted characters with negative emotions, while Babidi is stated to be capable of controlling only evil hearts. If Goku doesn't feel rage when transforming then I dont think Xehanort can take a hold of him, if Goku does feel rage then he "could" do it. I dont know who to vote just yet.

 

[Demonspeed]

Is possession Xehanort's only ability worthy of note here?

 

[lakhan220]

Babidi's magic is not a "could be", he straight up can only control the evil hearts alone. I said Xehanort's hax looks stronger because he can take control through simple negative emotions.

Again u r mistaking bibidi's control and overestimating xeonhart's control. Bibidi can use even a tiny speck of evil and amplify it, like for example spopovich, who was neutral basically, but bibidi was able to find hidden stuff in there.
As for xeonhart's negative emotions control and mechanics of KH, it is clear tht ones having negative emotions are using darkness as a weapon or have speck of darkness and tht is what xeonhart manipulates, not negative emotions itself. The crux behind those negative emotions. Say sora, his regrets arose darkness in him as per the KH wiki.
Whereas DB world necessarily states if one is pure of heart, emotions arising from it have crux in light, not darkness, so not applicable to goku tht manipulation, because rage of goku's crux is still light (assuming we r still using DBZ SS concept). Concept of DB world. So, basically , question of mechanics of the world .

Essentially, in core, both bibidi and xeonhart use same abilities , just diff names and mechanics owing to the creation of tht respective world.

I even gave the benefit of doubt there to Xeonhart, but like i say if hax of KH empowers xeonhart, mechanics of DB protects goku from it or gives him methods to resist it.

Coming back to point, once again, tht negative emotions theory doesn't essentially put xeonhart above babidi, because it is clearly using darkness behind those negative emotions as crux , not emotions itself. Evident from dark aura tht was emitting from person he manipulated. Empathy of darkness and light r also concepts of KH which clearly gives advantage to goku.

The term negative emotions and evil - link them with the establishment of respective worlds and they r essentially same. U r just paying attention on play of words.

Is possession Xehanort's only ability worthy of note here?

Others essentially r useless against goku and also requires certain conditions for activation and time.
But same could also be said abt this spell of manipulation.....it still requires activation time and casting.

 

[Asako]

Btw i never expected the thread where there the most posts in this round, is the one where one doesn't even have a nomination and the other nominator isn't even the one filling up the pages talking



Then again it's it's KH and DBZ ......

Both fandoms can be sth else ...

 

[Hardy]

Him not being completely evil was revealed when Porunga revived him in the final battle against Kid Buu. He was clearly evil at the beggining of Z tho since the genkidama hurt him.
Also linking Strength of Mind to Power sounds like a joke when looking at the characters' decisions and thought process

Anyway Im derailing, my point is Xehanort's hax is stronger than Babidi's since its proved to take good hearted characters with negative emotions, while Babidi is stated to be capable of controlling only evil hearts. If Goku doesn't feel rage when transforming then I dont think Xehanort can take a hold of him, if Goku does feel rage then he "could" do it. I dont know who to vote just yet.

I'm not asking that, I was asking where was it stated that Babidi's magic worked like that.

How do you know Spopovic and the other guy were evil?

 

[GrySun]

Btw i never expected the round where there the most posts, is the one where one doesn't even have a nomination and the other nominator isn't even the one filling up the pages talking



Then again it's it's KH and DBZ ......

Both fandoms can be sth else especially DBZ one when it comes to just number

I'm not that big on neither series but I know Xehanort through memes so I'm very interested in where he goes. Especially since the remaining participants are more and more ultra-hax things rather than fighters so Xehanort has more potential in theoretical matchups vs divine entities like Homura/Satan than simple Goku.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

What I'm saying is: vote Xehanort for more fun in next rounds. Rally behind the filler-nomination dark horse!

 

[lakhan220]

I'm not that big on neither series but I know Xehanort through memes so I'm very interested in where he goes. Especially since the remaining participants are more and more ultra-hax things rather than fighters so Xehanort has more potential in theoretical matchups vs divine entities like Homura/Satan than simple Goku.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2021 ---

What I'm saying is: vote Xehanort for more fun in next rounds. Rally behind the filler-nomination dark horse!

If u really wanted more fun, u shld have nominated mother from edens zero.

Btw i never expected the thread where there the most posts in this round, is the one where one doesn't even have a nomination and the other nominator isn't even the one filling up the pages talking



Then again it's it's KH and DBZ ......

Both fandoms can be sth else ...

I don't like being bound for things. I like to do it as per my own leisure and mood. Last time i campaigned was for yui and hinata in waifu wars few years ago, none my nomination.

 

[Seven777]

For tht, taking of heart and implanting of his own like xeonhart i think is point u r trying to make.
But let's not forget, if KH verse is giving hax in tht form, DB verse is protecting their fighters in form of them retaining strength and power despite magic used on them and they even being able to overpower and outthrow the manipulation completely. Keyword - magic as KH's whole world is magic and DB has it as one of the forces.

Basically resistance to magic in a different form. And which verse's law will prevail here will decide things. Because like i explained above unlike other verses where the creation and the concept of tht verse is not tht prominent, KH heavily relies on it in every form.
And once again, the question i stated above.....preparation time to cast spell. Goku doesn't need it.

Not really, I don't see why Xehanort needs to implant his own heart, just taking Goku's should do the job.
Magic seemed to work fine in Moro's case despite him being much weaker, and like I said, Xehanort doesn't really need to manipulate or possess Goku. Once he's in a heart coma Xehanort can just laser gun him.

I assumed people were arguing the time stop and then the heart unlocking, so there's not really any prep needed.

 

[SonOfDaws]

Points abt spirit bomb and tht purity has been answered by 3i and hardy. So, let me concentrate myself on the verse part.

Hmm, aren't u contradicting urself here ?

1-U applied KH's rule of few selective individuals having pure hearts and no darkness, but r denying won't apply to goku and he would have darkness as per KH rule ? As per KH, few select cases in Db verse equates to Goku since toriyama specifically made it a point to be conveyed multiple times tht he has no emotions associated from darkness, which is the main weapon of xeonhart. manipulate emotions related to darkness.

Let me put it other way. if KH universe equates people have to have darkness in the heart bar few cases, DB verse nullifies tht and makes Goku tht select few cases.

And closely related, not necessarily same those 5 things u mentioned. Same as all living things have soul, but not necessarily of same species.

2- Let's go reverse route of KH darkness doesn't equate negativity and GOKU is not entirely pure and xeonhart manipulates him. if KH verse is giving Xeonhart the hax in form of taking heart, DB verse in itself has shown tht characters manipulated by magic can shrug it off. Keyword being `Magic and manipulation`. So, once again, if KH verse has hax in magic and manipulation, DB verse protects its characters by being able t overpower through those magic and manipulation.

My point being, The contradiction i mentioned is u only r giving leeway to haxes of KH world but nullifying the advantages and protection the world and concept of DB gives to Goku.

The reason why we have to use verses here is because Xeonhart's power unlike others is heavily relied on creation if KH verse's origin and the parameters in it. Tht is why the verses have to step in

Tht also brings me to one more question I asked. It says to use any of his spells, xeonhart needs to cast it and time for preparation. It isn't instantaneous, which heavily works against Xeonhart here.


Can we get how tht decision was reached and on basis of what parameters ?
Bibidi's magic too find a shrek of darkness...even a very tiny bit and it amplifies and control fighters and yet vegeta had broken out of it. So, daws, once again, DB verse will protect its fighter from KH world's hax.

Coming back to you lambu, KH verse's magic user's parallel in DB verse is Bibidi or babidi. Instead of attributing it to the weakness of bibidi tht just vegeta and buu broke out of their manipulation, can't reverse be true too ? Crediting those 2 for having tht mental fortitude and overcoming tht manipulation and breaking free .
My point being, if u want to establish bibidi's manipulation is weaker, give some explanations as to why and how it is weak instead of generalized statement, mate.



For tht, taking of heart and implanting of his own like xeonhart i think is point u r trying to make.
But let's not forget, if KH verse is giving hax in tht form, DB verse is protecting their fighters in form of them retaining strength and power despite magic used on them and they even being able to overpower and outthrow the manipulation completely. Keyword - magic as KH's whole world is magic and DB has it as one of the forces.

Basically resistance to magic in a different form. And which verse's law will prevail here will decide things. Because like i explained above unlike other verses where the creation and the concept of tht verse is not tht prominent, KH heavily relies on it in every form.
And once again, the question i stated above.....preparation time to cast spell. Goku doesn't need it.

Gonna have to keep this one short

If Goku went through some process where the darkness (again specifically talking about darkness and not evil) was removed from his heart or someone here would like to make the case that Goku is a Princess of Light (specifically PRINCESS of light), then by all means. Otherwise, I agree that DB defines Goku as pure good so we can take that as being the case, but I still have no reason to believe Goku has no darkness in his, especially when he specifically trained a dark emotion, anger, for years and still lets it over take him well into Super.

Given that light is associate with good and darkness with evil, an ordinary "pure good" character would be more resistant to Xehanort's darkness manipulation since a pure good heart would be more associated with light, than darkness. However, again, Goku trained the emotion (anger) that Xehanort has had the easiest time exploiting, even in character that was stronger than Xehanort at the time and, while kind of dumb like Goku, was never shown to have anything but good intentions.

 

[lakhan220]

Gonna have to keep this one short

If Goku went through some process where the darkness (again specifically talking about darkness and not evil) was removed from his heart or someone here would like to make the case that Goku is a Princess of Light (specifically PRINCESS of light), then by all means. Otherwise, I agree that DB defines Goku as pure good so we can take that as being the case, but I still have no reason to believe Goku has no darkness in his, especially when he specifically trained a dark emotion, anger, for years and still lets it over take him well into Super.

Given that light is associate with good and darkness with evil, an ordinary "pure good" character would be more resistant to Xehanort's darkness manipulation since a pure good heart would be more associated with light, than darkness. However, again, Goku trained the emotion (anger) that Xehanort has had the easiest time exploiting, even in character that was stronger than Xehanort at the time and, while kind of dumb like Goku, was never shown to have anything but good intentions.

Again like i said, the hax of xeonhart KH world mentions darkness associated with negative emotions and DB verse toriyama clearly states tht negative emotion is not associated with darkness for ones with pure heart , so Xeonhart hax is nullified very immediately there.

I also asked abt activation process and time required to cast a spell, which too works against him.

Now, once again, we r not gonna give hax of one world a pass and ignore other .
KH manipulates darkness tht arises due to negative emotions (Pure - anger), whereas DB world states tht negative emotion's crux is light making him immune to control.
If KH's world's concept gives the hax of manipulation, concept of DB world provide protection.

So, basically, xeonhart's manipulation won't work.
I even offered u instance of in case if it works ....then once again the Db world's concept breaks apart tht very hax of KH and still puts goku in advantage.

Moreover, how is he even gonna beat him when he needs to cast spell and activate it doing 2 things against goku and wait for him to not react.
Also, the concept of magic itself too i stated in posts above.