Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[Zmsp]

You're invoking intention, and I agree that in this scenario Yamato isn't the person being offended. They're not real. However, the types of attitudes people display towards the topic itself is what is worrisome and it's what people take exception with. Plus, I don't really agree with the notion that people are behaving the way they are because they're "offended". That's an oversimplification that really only exists to ignore details IMO.

Hate speech can exist without intent, so I don't know what distinction you think you're making.

I don't think we're coming from such a different place, honestly.

I don't really agree with the "offended/offensive" part, mostly because that word has been thrown around a lot, and it surely wasn't unintentional.
If a comment's perceived as offensive, people should explain why, and people should also explain why not, if they believe it wasn't. That's when we enter detail, and that's a healthy argument, as far as I'm concerned. When it comes to attitude, I've also said, quite a lot, that I agree that mistakes are made.
I've certainly made a few, and I believe others have done their own.

I might've deviated from the original point over a couple of more direct arguments, but I guess what I've been trying to emphasize is precisely that: nuance is important, and we can only muddle through it by engaging others and elaborating. The distinction I'm trying to make is that, during most of the recent back and forths, there was no such thing as hate speech being thrown around, so I don't understand words like transphobic being thrown around either.


Then we come to particular arguments, and those vary a lot. It's very hard to navigate different points of contention and jumping between them without straw manning someone.

If I may add, (despite not being related to your comment)
I don't understand comments like "transgender people face a lot of hardships, prejudice and violence" being associated with other points made in this thread, and if you take a look around, those type of reasonings are often mentioned. So, those problems will be addressed by conceding on what gender is, despite nothing more than anecdotal evidence substantiating that view? or pronoun usage?

I'm a big advocate of tolerance towards diversity, but even that seems to bother a few people, because using the word tolerance seems to be taking the moral high ground.

 

[Tengou]

Do you know the dangers and bigotry that transgender people face? How many transgender people, especially women, are killed? The percentage? Their average lifespan? Problems of people are deemed more or less important based on the dangers they face. Transgender women are one of the most vulnerable groups, and certain groups of people are working on trying to eradicate them one way or another.

So while I don't think Yamato is a transgender man, the fact is that he sees himself as a man, so there's no reason to not use the he/him pronoun. He does seem to be genderfluid enough, and there's really no good argument for using she/her. If there wasn't a chance of someone fighting against this being transphobic in real life, then it'd be whatever.

In 2021 there were 57 confirmed US victims belonging to the 'Transgender and Gender-nonconforming community', according to the linked article written by the HRC foundation. If you have any more precise statistics on hand, feel free to share them, as this is what I've found on short notice.

They used the words '2021 has already seen' and I can't see a date, so they make it sound as though it was written before the year was done. However, one of the victims mentioned was shot in December 28th that year so the tally seems pretty comprehensive. Let's say for the sake of argument that the number of trans people that were killed was double or even triple this amount due to many cases going unreported, as the article asserts... so about 100 to 150. There were 19,600 people killed nationwide in the US in 2021. As far as I'm concerned, every murder is one too many, but 100 to 150 compared to 20,000, that's not a big percentage, and likely smaller than the percentage of people that identify as trans or nonbinary in the US. Added to that is the fact that the majority of transgender individuals live in the blue population centers where almost all of the murders happen, because those are also the places that promote trans-awareness and trans-visibility the most. Finally, we can't even be sure what percentage of these murders have been prejudice-motivated.

So maybe the first step towards improving things for everyone is stop pretending that they have it so much worse and they face that much more danger than everyone else and to actively work towards making themselves and their surroundings better and safer, instead of only ever focusing on how people are ganging up to oppress or victimize them. Anyone that has ever uplifted themselves from poverty and weakness to become successful in life has had to shed this self-destructive mentality of deflecting any and all accountability for their own personal situation.

I don't deny that trans people have their fair share of difficulties in life, but I reject the notion that their problems are more important than everybody else's. I will give the transgender community this much though; they're certainly louder about their problems than anyone else.

You know what the true 'most vulnerable group' in the world is? Children. And a lot of the problems you speak of seem to be the result of children being involved in things they're too young to be involved in by activist parents or teachers that expose them to such things without a shred of caution or consideration for their long-term physical and psychological well-being.

So, once again, I will look at this issue from an individual standpoint. I do not care about what this group or that group thinks. So long as Yamato is canonically female, does not make any active effort to make herself look more like a man, and maintains her indifferent attitude towards pronouns, I see no reason to compel people to either direction. Though having said that, I'm not a proponent of compelled speech in the first place.

 

[electricmastro]

I dont know why people give so much attention to a topic so irrelevant.
Her gender is clear - a woman. She is impersonating someone she likes.
I am sure there are people who would debate it but there is nothing to debate.

Yeah, I respect Kiku enough as the woman at heart she is to realize that trans people aren't impersonators. If people are going to go as so far as to claim we should respect Yamato's choice to be the man Oden was because of what Kaido and his followers said, then what's to be said of Yamato telling Momo like she's a replacement dad for his dead parent, as well as taking on a burden she shouldn't have to obligate herself to do by constantly feeling the pressure of trying to live up to Oden's standards and expectations?

 

[Uriel]

I do find it interesting how not even a vivre card overlooked by Oda himself was enough to settle the matter once and for all, and that it has been dismissed by some on the grounds of "Kaido and his followers say Yamato is a son more often" and "Yamato was bathing with the boys instead of the girls," as if having the narrative of a tomboy being under pressure by her dad to become part of a shogun patriarchy and bathes with whomever she feels like is out of the question.

A small note on this: There is a Vivre Card team, and Oda does not supervise everything.

Previous records of mistakes by Vivre Cards:
- "Law can't use Haki on people who have high Haki" directly contradicts Robin saying Haki doesn't stop Devil Fruit users from using their powers
- "Shanks became a Yonko before meeting Luffy"
- Corazon's height
You have a more detailed list on the wiki.


With this I'm not saying it's wrong in this particular case, but you shouldn't take it as a source of truth over the manga itself.

 

[electricmastro]

A small note on this: There is a Vivre Card team, and Oda does not supervise everything.

Previous records of mistakes by Vivre Cards:
- "Law can't use Haki on people who have high Haki" directly contradicts Robin saying Haki doesn't stop Devil Fruit users from using their powers
- "Shanks became a Yonko before meeting Luffy"
- Corazon's height
You have a more detailed list on the wiki.


With this I'm not saying it's wrong in this particular case, but you shouldn't take it as a source of truth over the manga itself.

I mean, in that case, then we can't always rely on the manga itself since corrections have been made with the manga as well. If Vivre Cards aren't always right, then neither is the manga.

 

[Uriel]

I mean, in that case, then we can't always rely on the manga itself since corrections have been made with the manga as well. If Vivre Cards aren't always right, then neither is the manga.

Of course! Sometimes corrections happen. Oda is a human being after all.
But manga should always be treated as a source of truth over Virve Cards. And there is a difference between a written detail and a panel drawing, as far as I know, Oda has not redrawn something to "fix it".

 

[electricmastro]

Of course! Sometimes corrections happen. Oda is a human being after all.
But manga should always be treated as a source of truth over Virve Cards. And there is a difference between a written detail and a panel drawing, as far as I know, Oda has not redrawn something to "fix it".

Yeah, though in this case, I personally see no fully convicting reason to dismiss the female listing in the vivre card, which has yet to be "fixed" after all this time. I suppose that could further lend to the idea that Kaido and his followers called Yamato a son out of wanting a shogun patriarchy, in a manga where a dad also wanted a son to inherit his dojo instead of his daughter, and that Yamato's bathing is just a sign of being a tomboy woman, because it's possible for women to do activities with men without being the same as trans after all. I really don't think Yamato is about completely leaving behind her birth gender, unlike with Kiku, as all she has really been about all things considered is trying to carry on Oden's will, wanting his freedom, and gaining manly/tomboy characteristics in the process.

 

[ShadowSJG]

I consider Yamato a woman/female due to the Vivre card and other stuff and Toei and Shueisha treat her as a woman with this Shoujo cover
She is just impersonating Oden

 

[xi0]

While he doesn't write all of them, I understand he looks over them enough for it to still be applicable to the manga despite not being mentioned in the manga itself.

Well, the counter to that would it being a single source that could easily be explained in other ways. While the majority of evidence suggests Yamato doesn't see themselves as a woman. But some don't see that as substantial enough of a reason to think that way because of the Oden connection.

My curiosity begs me to ask that if the Vivre Card was inline with everything else, would this change your opinion? Maybe it would, but I would say that it wouldn't for a large amount of fans.

 

[electricmastro]

Well, the counter to that would it being a single source that could easily be explained in other ways. While the majority of evidence suggests Yamato doesn't see themselves as a woman. But some don't see that as substantial enough of a reason to think that way because of the Oden connection.

My curiosity begs me to ask that if the Vivre Card was inline with everything else, would this change your opinion? Maybe it would, but I would say that it wouldn't for a large amount of fans.

I don't even know, but it makes myself wonder. Honestly, I'm not even sure why some refuse to believe "What if Yamato is just fine with both being called a male and female"? If the Vivre Card says female and Yamato has been called daughter and oni princess, then at that point, how exactly can it be so bad to refer to Yamato as female?

The fact that they constantly have to keep making explanations for why "the vivre card is wrong, the infobox is wrong, the beasts pirates are wrong about oni princess, Oda was wrong in that specific SBS, that commercial is wrong, that special cover page is wrong, this tribute is wrong, that piece of merchandise is wrong, that interview is wrong." makes me wonder: why even make explanations that much?

 

[xi0]

I don't even know, but it makes myself wonder. Honestly, I'm not even sure why some refuse to believe "What if Yamato is just fine with both being called a male and female"? If the Vivre Card says female and Yamato has been called daughter and oni princess, then at that point, how exactly can it be so bad to refer to Yamato as female?

The fact that they constantly have to keep making explanations for why "the vivre card is wrong, the infobox is wrong, the beasts pirates are wrong about oni princess, Oda was wrong in that specific SBS, that commercial is wrong, that special cover page is wrong, this tribute is wrong, that piece of merchandise is wrong, that interview is wrong." makes me wonder: why even make explanations that much?

I think there's a distinct difference between people thinking it's "bad" to refer to Yamato as female and those that are reacting to people that treat the suggestion of male or genderless pronouns as absurd because of the reasons you've brought up. I've deleted several posts that are nothing more than "tits + vagina = female", and that's very much a prevailing thought among some people regardless of how the character is written or treated within the story or how the existence of the character might allude to the topic of gender IRL.

 

[M3J]

Problem with relying on Vivre Card is that while it tells us information, it's in a way to avoid spoilers for the future. For example, Vivre Card before Dressrosa said Sabo was dead, right? Even though the manga hinted he was saved by Dragon? Then in that arc we found out he's actually alive. Oda probably planned that before the Vivre card, but he can't really reveal that, can he? When was the Vivre Card treating Yamato as a woman released? Before we found out he identified as Oden?

But if Yamato's been referred to a woman and hasn't had issue with that, other than the bath thing, then yeah, not a bad thing to use she/her, as long as there's no bad intent behind it. But otherwise, it shouldn't be hard to understand by now why some of us are reacting the way we are to this.

 

[electricmastro]

I think there's a distinct difference between people thinking it's "bad" to refer to Yamato as female and those that are reacting to people that treat the suggestion of male or genderless pronouns as absurd because of the reasons you've brought up. I've deleted several posts that are nothing more than "tits + vagina = female", and that's very much a prevailing thought among some people regardless of how the character is written or treated within the story or how the existence of the character might allude to the topic of gender IRL.

Yeah, I don’t go about explaining it like that. I try to see the story’s whole field of context for what it is and not just what I want to see, and in Yamato’s case, even though I do acknowledge Yamato has been called son multiple times, I still can’t in good confidence and faith dismiss everything else aforementioned pointing to Yamato as female, for reasons I’m sure others referring to Yamato as male can still understand. And this is coming from someone like me who refers to Kiku as a woman at heart and has no problem at all with that in good confidence. One thing I’m at least sure of: that Yamato’s case isn’t as simple and straightforward as Kiku’s

 

[Fox666]

And there is a difference between a written detail and a panel drawing, as far as I know, Oda has not redrawn something to "fix it".

Not sure what you meant, but all volumes have visual mistakes corrected.

 

[electricmastro]

Problem with relying on Vivre Card is that while it tells us information, it's in a way to avoid spoilers for the future. For example, Vivre Card before Dressrosa said Sabo was dead, right? Even though the manga hinted he was saved by Dragon? Then in that arc we found out he's actually alive. Oda probably planned that before the Vivre card, but he can't really reveal that, can he? When was the Vivre Card treating Yamato as a woman released? Before we found out he identified as Oden?

But if Yamato's been referred to a woman and hasn't had issue with that, other than the bath thing, then yeah, not a bad thing to use she/her, as long as there's no bad intent behind it. But otherwise, it shouldn't be hard to understand by now why some of us are reacting the way we are to this.

I can understand, though that said, it's one thing to speculate that the "female" part of the card is an error, and it's another to assume it's objectively an error despite the higher-up editors not saying it is. As for the bath, I also find it interesting that people use that to claim that Yamato is being a trans man, yet the panel also has Sanji nosebleeding over Yamato like he has with female characters. What kind of message is that meant to send then?

 

[xi0]

Yeah, I don’t go about explaining it like that. I try to see the story’s whole field of context for what it is and not just what I want to see, and in Yamato’s case, even though I do acknowledge Yamato has been called son multiple times, I still can’t in good confidence and faith dismiss everything else aforementioned pointing to Yamato as female, for reasons I’m sure others referring to Yamato as male can still understand. And this is coming from someone like me who refers to Kiku as a woman at heart and has no problem at all with that in good confidence. One thing I’m at least sure of: that Yamato’s case isn’t as simple and straightforward as Kiku’s

I think people who spend more than a second thinking about this situation and actually approach it earnestly are treating it the way they are because of situations like Kiku existing in the same story, etc. So I see the point in your thinking, but I think people who dismiss the topic when it comes to Yamato aren't acting in good faith really and in turn it can be upsetting for people who think differently.

 

[electricmastro]

I still remember Luffy's words to Yamato when he said "You can't be Oden." and I don't think it was meant to portray Luffy as "transphobic" or anything like that, given Luffy's bonding with Bon Clay and Ivan and all. I probably should have focused on that line more than I should have early on since it might be particularly crucial in hinting where Yamato's character will go after Wano. I recall Oda himself saying that you should always stay true to yourself, so maybe that's what he intended for Luffy to mean here.

 

[Uriel]

Not sure what you meant, but all volumes have visual mistakes corrected.

Not a complete redrawn of a panel, as far as I recall. Do you have any examples of what you are saying?

 

[ShadowSJG]

【Scene2】ONE PIECE Vol.100/Ep.1000 Celebration Movies"WE ARE ONE."
This included woman characters and Yamato was there
Grandline lady figure features Yamato too

 

[electricmastro]

【Scene2】ONE PIECE Vol.100/Ep.1000 Celebration Movies"WE ARE ONE."
This included woman characters and Yamato was there
Grandline lady figure features Yamato too

I know about that, but apparently it's meant to be believed they don't count.