Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[ShadowSJG]

I know about that, but apparently it's meant to be believed they don't count.

Why not?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Why not?

Because these are non canon materials that are used purely for merchandising/monetizing OP. Using these as sources of truth would be like claiming what happens in an OP video game is also a source of truth. By that merit we'd have to accept things like the honey Logia DF from OP Movie 2 as canon material.

 

[ShadowSJG]

Because these are non canon materials that are used purely for merchandising/monetizing OP. Using these as sources of truth would be like claiming what happens in an OP video game is also a source of truth. By that merit we'd have to accept things like the honey Logia DF from OP Movie 2 as canon material.

no they are supplementary materials reflecting canon and all
movies are diff from merchandise and all come on

 

[Fox666]

Not a complete redrawn of a panel, as far as I recall. Do you have any examples of what you are saying?

There have been some significant changes

 

[DeadlyBeast]

no they are supplementary materials reflecting canon and all
movies are diff from merchandise and all come on

All One Piece video games, movies, toys, etc are non canon material (unless Oda says otherwise)! They introduce characters that don't exist, give characters moves that they don't actually have, create devil fruit powers that don't exist etc. Non canon material is a super common thing for all types of successful stories/movies/books/etc. Things are only canon if they are in the manga or are an external source that Oda has explicitly said are canon e.g. Ace Novel/vivre cards/data books. Not sure where you got the idea that toys are canon.

 

[Uriel]

There have been some significant changes

That is, indeed, a significant change. If Oda redraws the panel with Yamato in the bathroom then I guess I could be convinced.

 

[electricmastro]

no they are supplementary materials reflecting canon and all
movies are diff from merchandise and all come on

Yeah, One Piece media doesn't have to be the same as the manga to at least be worth considering and reflecting on. Things like commercials and merchandise are still created by humans who are capable of having certain motives and reasons for presenting material the way they do, and them not being the same as Oda doesn't mean I'm always quick to toss all of it away into the garbage either if you ask me. It's possible for a commercial to get one using their critical thinking skills and analysis just as much as the manga can.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yeah, One Piece media doesn't have to be the same as the manga to at least be worth considering and reflecting on. Things like commercials and merchandise are still created by humans who are capable of having certain motives and reasons for presenting material the way they do, and them not being the same as Oda doesn't mean I'm always quick to toss all of it away into the garbage either if you ask me. It's possible for a commercial to get one using their critical thinking skills and analysis just as much as the manga can.

I think a person can enjoy and appreciate non canon material that is inspired by the source material but we shouldn't conflate the two being on same standing of authenticity. Heck non canon material can even be better than the source material from a critical point of view. I just think for something like this where people are discussing Yamato's gender (mind you I'm not arguing that the canon material has given an explicit answer to this question yet), it is important to stick to the canon material. For example, if I ask you what color is Enel's lighting, the answer is gold/yellow. Even though the anime displayed it as blue there is a factual answer from Oda provided in color spreads in the manga. No amount of merchandising, toys, posters, movies, etc supersede the source/canon material.

 

[electricmastro]

I just think for something like this where people are discussing Yamato's gender (mind you I'm not arguing that the canon material has given an explicit answer to this question yet), it is important to stick to the canon material.

It's interesting though, that people seem validate the Beasts Pirates referring to Yamato as a son, but also seem to ignore Oni Princess even though the Beasts Pirates also said it in the canon manga, in addition to the daughter infobox.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It's interesting though, that people seem validate the Beasts Pirates referring to Yamato as a son, but also seem to ignore Oni Princess even though the Beasts Pirates also said it in the canon manga, in addition to the daughter infobox.

I don't personally agree with that either. At this point the canon material has not provided a definitive answer so either pronoun is appropriate. People just need to come with good intentions when using whichever pronoun they choose. The canon material will eventually give us a definitive answer (unless Oda drags this out until the end same as with what One Piece is).

 

[electricmastro]

People just need to come with good intentions when using whichever pronoun they choose.

Of course.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2022 ---

That is, indeed, a significant change. If Oda redraws the panel with Yamato in the bathroom then I guess I could be convinced.

The thing about the bathroom scene, as I believe I mentioned before, is that Sanji is seen nosebleeding over Yamato like he had with female characters in the past, so what message would that be intended to send, if any? Also on that note, isn't it possible for a woman do activities with men without being considered trans, like Japanese tomboys who use "boku"?

 

[Uriel]

The thing about the bathroom scene, as I believe I mentioned before, is that Sanji is seen nosebleeding over Yamato like he had with female characters in the past, so what message would that be intended to send, if any? Also on that note, isn't it possible for a woman do activities with men without being considered trans, like Japanese tomboys who use "boku"?

1) Fair point, but it's also fair to point out that He was in the bathroom after all. And that's more complicated to understand as Japanese culture is different from ours regarding gender.
2) The term you're looking for is Bokkuko. In that case, the best translation to western culture is gender-fluid, which is translated as They/Them in English or the indicated gender.

 

[electricmastro]

2) The term you're looking for is Bokkuko. In that case, the best translation to western culture is gender-fluid, which is translated as They/Them in English or the indicated gender.

Not sure about the gender-fluid/they and them, as I’ve understood bokukko to usually be tomboy girls, as mentioned, and can sometimes adopt “masculine characteristics” and even do activities with men without leaving behind their female birth gender.

 

[keeper1h]

Maybe I'm wrong, but Sanji being shambled into Nami's body was just like what Yamato is: a male with the body of a female.

 

[MOYcano 0.23]

Sex: Female; Gender: Japanese one-pot dishes

Where's the confusion?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Alot of people are going to be pissed at Oda calling Yamato a woman in the new Road to Laughtale Volume

Maybe it's a wrong translation?

 

[Uriel]

Alot of people are going to be pissed at Oda calling Yamato a woman in the new Road to Laughtale Volume

Maybe it's a wrong translation?

Not sure. I would be not, tbh. I'm pissed at transphobic comments (Calm down people, there are a lot of users here and some were just shitty comments) that this discussion originated, not the definition of Yamato themself.

Care to link?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Not sure. I would be not, tbh. I'm pissed at transphobic comments (Calm down people, there are a lot of users here and some were just shitty comments) that this discussion originated, not the definition of Yamato themself.

Care to link?

I'm having trouble linking it. I'm on my phone. But it's over at worstgen with rough translations if anyone cares to check it out. Stuff about Nika and early sketches of Yamato. Cool stuff

 

[Erinyes]

I'm having trouble linking it. I'm on my phone. But it's over at worstgen with rough translations if anyone cares to check it out. Stuff about Nika and early sketches of Yamato. Cool stuff

This right ?

"Here is the lively Onihime who rampages using martial arts... A three eyes one was also considered at a time "

Hime = Princess, in case.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2022 ---

I like her early design. i dont know again why this convo has turned out to become a political thing, but again I think it's good to have a look at the references Oda used to create her character, he mentioned reading beforehand, Versailles no Bara & Glass no Kamen. one is about a woman raised as a man, the 2nd is about an actress, remember too that Wano arc is built upon a kabuki drama pattern. Just my 2cents again, i already wrote about it.

Trivia -Yamato character inspiration and its implication in the storytelling​

In Weekly Shonen Jump (WSJ) #issue 28 in 2019, Oda stated he read Versailles no Bara and Glass no Kamen. Both manga are obvious inspiration for Yamato's character, Oscar François de Jarjailles is the main female lead character in Versailles no Bara, she was raised as a boy to fulfil her family duty to become a guard for Royal family, shes from a noble rank but she will at the end side commoners against nobility and will oppose her own father. She is wearing male attire and she has a man name but she doesnt deny her feminity. The inspiration is obvious, a woman pretending being a man, who struggles against her own family to fight alongside the plebs.​

As for Maya Kitajima in Glass no Kamen, she is training to become actress, she is very talented, and tends to go to extreme training, like literally put herself into the condition of a blind and deaf person to play Helen Keller role, This is important since Yamato is impersonating Oden, she plays his role. And note that she is referring herself as Yamato to Momonosuke, but as Oden to Kaido and his subordonates. As said in previous reviews, the whole arc is built as a kabuki play and has various elements of drama within it, among them characters that play other characters roles ( Kanjuro, for instance ) disguises, masks etc, the other point, is that in early kabuki form, female performers played both men and women roles.​

If Yamato plays Oden's role, it is very likley she will confronts her father and she is eager to, as seen earlier, as her role requires her to, as protector of Mononosuke and the one who makes Odens soul lives on, by impersonating im she will be reproducing or trying to replay his performance against Kaido.​

Oda's comment WSj #28, 2019

Oscar François de Jarjailles in her male attire (Versailles no Bara)

Maya Training as blind and deaf girl to for playing Helen Keller role (Glass no Kamen)​

 

[Uriel]

That's quite interesting.
I'm curious to see how Oda will address this character from now on, after the "kabuki" structure.

I think there is enough evidence to call Yamato however you want at this point.