Discussion Yonko Commander / Admirals Discussion Thread

HereNThere

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When I get some time, I'm going to break down King and Queen's real potential and why I think Zoro and Sanji were lucky they were the protagonists.
So let's talk about King and Queen and how OP they actually are with their full arsenal/potential/taken to their logical extreme.

Was going to do a big essay on it, but I don't feel like it anymore, so I'll list the highlights.

King: Everything has mostly been said about him, so I don't really have much to add. He's impressive and a great example of a well-rounded pirate. He doesn't get much flak, but I do see the odd wild take about him.
  • Devil Fruit:
    • The biggest obstacle presented to Zoro was King's durability and that trait was amplified by his devil fruit, which he conveniently lessened the use of during the final moments of their fight. Aside from the bonus durability granted to King by his fruit, it also provided a number of different techniques that Zoro had serious trouble dealing with, including Tempuraudon, which Zoro never actually found a way around. His fruit also gave him additional physical strength, which Zoro also had troubles with and never fully countered.
  • Most Dangerous Gimp:
    • Only shown for a whopping single chapter, King's gimp suit has been outfitted with a number of inbuilt weapons that should've provided him with various additional methods of harming his opponents in CQC. Obviously not a serious game-changer, but there were a couple of moments where King got the drop on Zoro where those implements conspicuously went unused.
  • Explosive Counters:
    • Another ability shown for a whopping single chapter, King demonstrated the ability to release a massive explosion as a counter. An explosion so powerful, Zoro had noted that he would've died had he not managed to put up his armament at the last minute. Still, it created enough force to blow Zoro back and leave him open to counters which, of course, wasn't capitalized on by King.
  • Lunarian Flames vs Fox-Fire Style:
    • King switched his preferred manner of attack to his Lunarian flames rather than his fruit abilities, which technically gave Zoro a more reliable method of countering King.
Queen: So, I've got a lot to say about Mr. Funk. I think he's underestimated as a fighter just because he doesn't have a formal "technique" so to speak and he didn't get much of a focused fight. As with his co-worker, I actually think his abilities showed that he's capable of covering all of his bases, rather than focusing on a single method of combat. As varied as the world of One Piece is in terms of combat, he's one of the few characters who kind of has an answer to everything. It's really weird seeing him get dumped on to the degree that he is when he has plenty of good feats that are impressive and pretty high tier.
  • Excite Bullets:
    • Don't even know where to start with this. To start with, Queen, befitting his epithet, is an effective virologist. His Mummy Virus nearly put Luffy on ice and Ice Oni was a troublesome roadblock for the alliance. I also believe that the Blinding Arrows that were used as a show of force against Oden's people were one of his as well. But..that's only three viruses. Queen should technically have a decent collection of viruses of various threat levels. But that's not all, Queen was capable of applying those viruses to ammunition for guns. Queen should have a crap ton of those bullets for easy use. But HereNThere, you might say, Zoro destroyed Queen's manner of dispersal by destroying his gatling gun. Which is correct...until you remember that Queen also has various guns within his own body, including another Gatling gun in his mouth and guns on his side. But HereNThere, you continue, Chopper was able to figure out a cure for Queen's viruses! Also correct, but Chopper was lucky enough to only have to work with a single virus at a time. If Queen had multiple viruses on hand and constantly switched them up? Well, things likely wouldn't work well in the frame of time they were working with.
  • Lasers:
    • This is more so on Oda than Queen. Lasers in One Piece are simultaneously super lethal and non-threatening. They have incredible explosive force (sometimes), extreme heat (sometimes), and can usually pierce anything (sometimes). Queen had a number of them bad boys and should've really done major damage all over the place. Next time we see Franky with whatever Laser upgrade, bet it's going to be shown to be more effective than Queen's for reasons. There's also the fact that he had Sanji held and didn't just shoot a hole through him while he was restrained.
  • DF/Brachiohiss/General Physical Abilities:
    • This is just a strange technique that really highlights Queen's actual physical strength. Capable of bypassing hardening through straight physical strength is pretty amazing. Add that into the fact that Queen didn't even use his own hardening as well and the level of power this technique has is probably greater than we saw. I honestly don't see many people getting out of this technique. His Devil Fruit in general in conjunction with his cybernetics also provides plenty of endurance. He may not be Kaido or King, but I don't see him going down that much easier than them. Especially when you consider that he took a slice from King's haphazard attack pretty easily and recovering from a decent attack to the face from Marco.
  • Germa Lineage Factors:
    • Pretty straightforward here. Queen only used these techniques one at a time. I assume he's capable of mixing and matching these techniques, which is honestly overwhelming in conjunction with everything else in his repertoire. Henry Brachiohiss. Winch Bridal Grapper. Stealth Anything. The only one I'm unsure of is Sparkling Red/Queen as I really don't see the difference between those lasers and the lasers he was already using.
 
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McNuss

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Queen is kind of an "Why didn't they use the eagles to fly to Mt. Doom" case.

He could have easily used another plague and Sanji would be dead. But he obviously didn't as that would never make up a satisfying plot.

When considering Queen's Powerlevel, just ignore the plagues. If you consider them in, Queen is the strongest, until you consider in other cheats like Jack's poison gas.

Both, but especially the Ice Oni relate to deep meta secrets crucial to solve the overall plot, that's the reason why they are in this story in the first place despite the controversies they are bound to create.

I also have to strongly disagree with Queen getting dumped. Among all secondary antagonists, Queen should be in the tops both with overall screentime and focused fights. Most of the Onigashima raid that is not vs Kaido has been vs Queen one way or another, and that is not counting in his presence in Udon.

By the way, I don't think Queen altered his Lineage Factor to use the Germa Abilities. He replicated the technology in the Raid Suits. Actually, considering how Queen called the Germa siblings cyborgs, I have serious doubts that these abilities are even created by LF manipulation in the first place, especially Winch Green doesn't look like that at all, and Sanji didn't gain Stealth Black after - what the community perceives as - "his modifications awakening". I think LF manipulation granted them the Exoskeleton and stripped them of their emotions. The rest is technology, hence why it gets enhanced by wearing the Raid Suit.
 

Core D. Roy

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I think it was also Prometheus that was injured by him, not Napoleon, and this was I guess because of his whole 'magic fire' vs. 'regular fire thing.' And for this reason, I would also say that he would be a horrible matchup for Ace in terms of DF ability if he can in fact override 'regular' fire.
The fact he damaged Prometheus, who doesn't take normal damage unless it explicitly affects his nature as flame (see Zoro and Brook), and the fact he inexplicably damaged King in Defense Mode- both within the same arc- probably means Marco's flames just fucking wrecks anything that's flame-based at most, or effectively disrupts anything flame-based at least. Ace was probably stupidly more powerful than he was typically portrayed, but his DF was probably a direct ineffective against Marco's phoenix flames.

Aside: Imagining Marco tossing Ace around is a pretty funny image, in a fun 'right hand putting the upstart in his place' kinda way.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

So let's talk about King and Queen and how OP they actually are with their full arsenal/potential/taken to their logical extreme.

Was going to do a big essay on it, but I don't feel like it anymore, so I'll list the highlights.

King: Everything has mostly been said about him, so I don't really have much to add. He's impressive and a great example of a well-rounded pirate. He doesn't get much flak, but I do see the odd wild take about him.
  • Devil Fruit:
    • The biggest obstacle presented to Zoro was King's durability and that trait was amplified by his devil fruit, which he conveniently lessened the use of during the final moments of their fight. Aside from the bonus durability granted to King by his fruit, it also provided a number of different techniques that Zoro had serious trouble dealing with, including Tempuraudon, which Zoro never actually found a way around. His fruit also gave him additional physical strength, which Zoro also had troubles with and never fully countered.
  • Most Dangerous Gimp:
    • Only shown for a whopping single chapter, King's gimp suit has been outfitted with a number of inbuilt weapons that should've provided him with various additional methods of harming his opponents in CQC. Obviously not a serious game-changer, but there were a couple of moments where King got the drop on Zoro where those implements conspicuously went unused.
  • Explosive Counters:
    • Another ability shown for a whopping single chapter, King demonstrated the ability to release a massive explosion as a counter. An explosion so powerful, Zoro had noted that he would've died had he not managed to put up his armament at the last minute. Still, it created enough force to blow Zoro back and leave him open to counters which, of course, wasn't capitalized on by King.
  • Lunarian Flames vs Fox-Fire Style:
    • King switched his preferred manner of attack to his Lunarian flames rather than his fruit abilities, which technically gave Zoro a more reliable method of countering King.
Queen: So, I've got a lot to say about Mr. Funk. I think he's underestimated as a fighter just because he doesn't have a formal "technique" so to speak and he didn't get much of a focused fight. As with his co-worker, I actually think his abilities showed that he's capable of covering all of his bases, rather than focusing on a single method of combat. As varied as the world of One Piece is in terms of combat, he's one of the few characters who kind of has an answer to everything. It's really weird seeing him get dumped on to the degree that he is when he has plenty of good feats that are impressive and pretty high tier.
  • Excite Bullets:
    • Don't even know where to start with this. To start with, Queen, befitting his epithet, is an effective virologist. His Mummy Virus nearly put Luffy on ice and Ice Oni was a troublesome roadblock for the alliance. I also believe that the Blinding Arrows that were used as a show of force against Oden's people were one of his as well. But..that's only three viruses. Queen should technically have a decent collection of viruses of various threat levels. But that's not all, Queen was capable of applying those viruses to ammunition for guns. Queen should have a crap ton of those bullets for easy use. But HereNThere, you might say, Zoro destroyed Queen's manner of dispersal by destroying his gatling gun. Which is correct...until you remember that Queen also has various guns within his own body, including another Gatling gun in his mouth and guns on his side. But HereNThere, you continue, Chopper was able to figure out a cure for Queen's viruses! Also correct, but Chopper was lucky enough to only have to work with a single virus at a time. If Queen had multiple viruses on hand and constantly switched them up? Well, things likely wouldn't work well in the frame of time they were working with.
  • Lasers:
    • This is more so on Oda than Queen. Lasers in One Piece are simultaneously super lethal and non-threatening. They have incredible explosive force (sometimes), extreme heat (sometimes), and can usually pierce anything (sometimes). Queen had a number of them bad boys and should've really done major damage all over the place. Next time we see Franky with whatever Laser upgrade, bet it's going to be shown to be more effective than Queen's for reasons. There's also the fact that he had Sanji held and didn't just shoot a hole through him while he was restrained.
  • DF/Brachiohiss/General Physical Abilities:
    • This is just a strange technique that really highlights Queen's actual physical strength. Capable of bypassing hardening through straight physical strength is pretty amazing. Add that into the fact that Queen didn't even use his own hardening as well and the level of power this technique has is probably greater than we saw. I honestly don't see many people getting out of this technique. His Devil Fruit in general in conjunction with his cybernetics also provides plenty of endurance. He may not be Kaido or King, but I don't see him going down that much easier than them. Especially when you consider that he took a slice from King's haphazard attack pretty easily and recovering from a decent attack to the face from Marco.
  • Germa Lineage Factors:
    • Pretty straightforward here. Queen only used these techniques one at a time. I assume he's capable of mixing and matching these techniques, which is honestly overwhelming in conjunction with everything else in his repertoire. Henry Brachiohiss. Winch Bridal Grapper. Stealth Anything. The only one I'm unsure of is Sparkling Red/Queen as I really don't see the difference between those lasers and the lasers he was already using.
Zoro and Sanji's fights with King and Queen... I don't think they were bad, as far as powerscaling, or at least not terrible. I was more bothered with the narrative oomf I was hoping they'd pack. Either way, those fights were an example of how Oda is probably going to be handling the power creep of end-game One Piece. Looking forward to a lot more one-off-clashes and the fights that do drag on for more than that are going to have a lot of potential PIS.

King/Queen didn't fight as well as they should have, on paper anyway. But I have had this thought for a while now that the Beasts Pirates and Big Mom Pirates have grown as crews kinda, idk, soft? Compared to other crews that are constantly adventuring and going through leveling-up danger. Linlin and Kaidou were both just idly chilling in their territories for quite a long time it seemed, just building up their respective military power for the Throne War. Red Hair Pirates just waltz around wherever the hell they want, likewise with the Blackbeard Pirates and Strawhat Pirates.

In short, characters like King and Katakuri are certainly nothing to sneeze at, but it seems painfully apparent they spent literal decades getting rusty in their safe territories.
 

grey matter

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The fact he damaged Prometheus, who doesn't take normal damage unless it explicitly affects his nature as flame (see Zoro and Brook), and the fact he inexplicably damaged King in Defense Mode- both within the same arc- probably means Marco's flames just fucking wrecks anything that's flame-based at most, or effectively disrupts anything flame-based at least. Ace was probably stupidly more powerful than he was typically portrayed, but his DF was probably a direct ineffective against Marco's phoenix flames.

Aside: Imagining Marco tossing Ace around is a pretty funny image, in a fun 'right hand putting the upstart in his place' kinda way.
I agree.
It does seem like Marco's phoenix flames somehow "dealt" with Prometheus and King's lunarian flames.

Seeing it this way makes more sense than thinking he hits leagues harder than rooftop Zoro. Whose attacks were powerful enough to cut Kaido and make Kaido dodge.

Not taking anything away from Marco. He still has great offense, and has the attack power to deal good damage to King, who is still an ancient Zoan even disregarding his Lunarian powers.
As well as Queen, another ancient Zoan, who almost entirely relies on his durability to carry him instead of defending, and tanked several attacks from Sanji (pre Germa bio) without much issues.
 
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