And alternatively, it also means there likely weren't such a thing as emperors back then, just strong pirates, with the possibility of others being close to the trio in strength. We don't know there were emperors before the original Yonkou around/after Roger, that's just you assuming there were emperors for whatever reason you have. Influential, sure, but nothing stating they were anything more than infamous. It's a useless and pointless argument anyway without actual evidence.
Anyway, maybe Hancock might be captured, influencing Luffy to at some point to try and rescue her. Until he reaches Raftel, he likely won't be going after the Marines or WG, so if Oda wants him to do that, Hancock being imprisoned would be a good reason. Might also be possible for Buggy to be imprisoned again for humor, especially since he seemed have been doing okay last time he was there.
We know there were strong influential Pirates back then.
To say otherwise is what makes no sense.
Why wouldn't there be rich, powerful, influential Pirates?
Someone starts a Pirate crew...
They want a huge fleet, who doesn't want that.
They want money. who doesn't want that.
They want to be able to call shots and tell other pirates what to do... who doesn't want that.
So the idea there weren't Emperors back then is extremely absurd.
We had Admirals back then - CP0 talking about Big Mom as a kid, we had Super Rookies (Brooke referred to Roger as a Super Rookie back then), so why there wouldn't be dominant pirates (Emperors) of the sea is frankly an absurd idea.
Rocks had literally every Emperor now under him.
He wanted to take over the world to become a King, so we know he was ambitious and wanted wealth, power, influence, etc.
Stated to be the greatest enemy Roger had despite the existence of Whitebeard.
Yet, we think this guy wasn't an Emperor? That's absurd.
Dude I spent pages of back and forth in the Ch1036 thread arguing with him about this. As far as he's concerned government is the end all be all and what happens in Wano won't be coming out unless the WG decides it should. I'm just waiting for when Wano is over and the world finding out about Luffy beating Kaido and the rest so I can gloat lol
I think this is the crux of the issue. You define emperor as the strongest pirate (or pirates) with great influence in a given era. Not everyone agrees with this definition of emperor.
You will always have the strongest people of a group at any point in time. That can be said of real life humanity too. However, just like in real life humanity, to be considered an emperor more is needed than just being the strongest. By your definition the strongest cavemen living 50k years ago would be emperors because they are the strongest of their era not because they actually had an empire.
I'm not necessarily arguing that there weren't emperors back then but nothing has been revealed that shows them operating as empires in the way we see todays emperors. To me a pirate crew needs to meet multiple criteria to be considered an emperor -
Has to be in top tier of strength in their era
Has to have influence in the pirating world (typically through large alliances of subordinated pirates)
Has to have either large swaths of territory that they rule/govern or the equivalent via nations flying their flag
The first criteria will always be met in all eras but the latter may not. I'm sure others have their own criteria that I didn't include too so there is definitely more nuance to this debate than you're making it seem.
There would have been the strongest Pirates with the most influence in the sea.
Territory isn't necessary since Luffy is considered the 5th just because he is powerful, has fleets and a huge following which results in influence. Can't have the greatest influence without strength and a huge following.
We know of Emperors before the Yonko (4 Emperors) became a thing:
Whitebeard
Big Mom
Shiki during Roger's era
Rocks Pirates pretty much had all the strongest pirates in 1 crew and was the owner of Fullalead which Blackbeard has taken over now.
There may not have been 4 Emperors back then like now, but there'd definitely have been a 2-3 that controlled the seas.
Yes, nothing even implies yonkou/emperor was a thing back then. Simply being influential/one of the strongest isn't enough to be considered an emperor, unless you can prove that the term existed back then. That's like saying the Celestial Dragons were a thing back before the World Government was formed just because they exist now.
There would have been the strongest Pirates with the most influence in the sea.
Territory isn't necessary since Luffy is considered the 5th just because he is powerful, has fleets and a huge following which results in influence. Can't have the greatest influence without strength and a huge following.
We know of Emperors before the Yonko (4 Emperors) became a thing:
Whitebeard
Big Mom
Shiki during Roger's era
Rocks Pirates pretty much had all the strongest pirates in 1 crew and was the owner of Fullalead which Blackbeard has taken over now.
There may not have been 4 Emperors back then like now, but there'd definitely have been a 2-3 that controlled the seas.
I personally think that Rocks was for all purposes the equivalent of what is called an Emperor today (I don't personally care if the term existed or not so long as what it defines did). I'd wager the equivalent of Emperor has existed so long as there has been large scale piracy (OP has never made it clear if large scale piracy has always been a thing or if it's a more recent phenomenon, especially post Roger).
As for Luffy being an Emperor, I do think territory will be important. He doesn't have to directly rule countries but there will have to be islands that fly the Strawhat flag, of which I think Fishman Island became the first during Reverie arc since Neptune said it they had no choice but to put the island under SH protection (this was when the news of Jinbei officially joining SH post WCI). I think being powerful by itself is likely to lead to territory but is not a given.
The territory thing for me matters since that is a recognition of strength. If people don't know a crew is that powerful and don't fear them then can one really be an emperor?
Again, prove that such a thing as emperor existed back then. No mention of emperors having been a thing back then, and being an influential and strong pirate does not relate to being an emperor, at all. Otherwise you might as well say shichibukai existed back in those days as well, despite the manga telling us they were created few years prior to the start of the series to combat the pirates and even things up with the emperors.
Celestial Dragons aren't a special alliance, they're just titles given to the descendants of the kings that created the World Government.
I personally think that Rocks was for all purposes the equivalent of what is called an Emperor today (I don't personally care if the term existed or not so long as what it defines did).
I'd wager the equivalent of Emperor has existed so long as there has been large scale piracy (OP has never made it clear if large scale piracy has always been a thing or if it's a more recent phenomenon, especially post Roger).
People always think it's their own definition that matters.
No, it's the definition the Manga gives us.
It's not about what you prefer or like, or what I like or prefer, fact is Luffy with no territory is considered the 5th and has no territory, so we know it's simply influence and power that dictates that.
Nevertheless, territory is a small thing, it's not that significant if everyone fears you.
Those 20 kings refer to themselves as Celestial Dragons.
It's the alliance of 20 kingdoms and 20 kings.
They're an alliance.
Celestial Dragons are a group of descendants of an alliance of kings.
That's not an ordinary alliance my guy, they're rulers of the world, lol.
Nami and Usopp forming an alliance, yeah, that's ordinary, insignificant. When you get powerful people that rule the world, and then they decide to come together to even have more control? That's a unique alliance.
You can play semantics and say it's not special, but it is an alliance.
Emperors aren't an alliance nor are Yonkos (4 Emperors). They are 4 distinctively powerful rulers who oppose each other.
So no proof or anything. YOu're just calling any influential pirate emperor. I guess we can call Whitebeard the last Pirate King since he was the strongest and closest to the title after Roger died.
Still waiting for proof that being an emperor is related to being an influential and strong pirate, and that it wasn't a term invented around when Big Mom was seen to be on an even footing as Whitebeard and Roger.
Selective reading on your part as usual I guess. "The descendants of the creators are known as the Celestial Dragons." They're not an alliance anymore, they're given the title/status of Celestial Dragons because they came from the creators of the World Government. Hell, it says "known today." Yeesh.
An Emperor have to claim some islands as his territory, and be strong enough to defend it.
If an unknown pirate came to be yesterday, claimed a dozen islands his territory and kicked Blackbeard's ass, he would be recognized as an Emperor by the world. It doesn't matter if nobody knows who he is.
Does not have to be the most influential, can just be strong and/or influential enough. But I guess by your logic, Whitebeard was the Pirate King after Roger died since he was the most influential and the strongest pirate, after Roger.
Wrong, the 20 Kingdoms are an alliance, you would have to be delusional to say otherwise.
Entire reason they all live in Mariejoa is because they are an alliance, lol.
World Government was founded by an alliance of 20 kingdoms. It is not an alliance anymore, it is an entity.
Likely at first, when the World Government was first formed. Now, the families see it as clean and whatnot, while anywhere out of Mariejoa is filthy to them to the point that they wear bubbles.
What's dumb is you don't understand all Emperors are:
The most influential
the most powerful Pirates.
It's just a fact that can't be argued about, even a goldfish wouldn't.
And yet you provide no proof whatsoever, other than "CoMmOn SeNsE" and "Ur DuMb!!"
no shit the emperors are the most influential and powerful. It still doesn't prove they or the concept of an emperor existed back then. Or the word used to describe such pirates.
I said the concept always existed.
Kings today are pretty much Presidents in this day and age, the terms might be different, the meanings are essentially the same.
Your argument is beyond dumb, there's really nothing to argue.
It's like trying to argue that Mantra and Haki and Ryuo are different things, lol. They're the same, just different words.
Still didn't. "Most influential and the strongest" pirate likely did, but not emperor.
No, that's even dumber. Kings and presidents are two different things, meanings and terms. Kings were seen as messengers of gods who could do whatever they wanted and controlled their subjects and lands. Presidents are commanders in chief who have limited power.
Cool. But the concept of emperor likely did not exist back then.
That's like saying there were Kings (people who rule entire countries) 1000s of years ago, but there are no more kings now. Yes, the term changed to president or prime minister, they still pretty much do the same thing.
You just said people who were the most powerful and influential existed years ago, but Emperors only existed now?
That's like saying there were Kings (people who rule entire countries) 1000s of years ago, but there are no more kings now. Yes, the term changed to president or prime minister, they still pretty much do the same thing.
You just said people who were the most powerful and influential existed years ago, but Emperors only existed now?
This is so wrong, it's baffling you actually claimed that. Heck, President and President are hardly the same thing, yet you also shoved in Monarchs (what does the term mean, for that matter?) and Prime Ministers as essentially the same thing? How can countries like France and Israel have both a President and a Prime Minister, if they are essentially the same?
This is so wrong, it's baffling you actually claimed that. Heck, President and President are hardly the same thing, yet you also shoved in Monarchs (what does the term mean, for that matter?) and Prime Ministers as essentially the same thing? How can countries like France and Israel have both a President and a Prime Minister, if they are essentially the same?
We have no knowledge of such a power balance pre-Roger or Pre-Rocks….
I don’t believe the Emperor system existed. Even with the Warlord system, it seems it was formed after Roger died, & there was a boom in Pirates on the seas.
I don’t believe Pirating was as popular as it currently is, after Roger’s death. So I think it would be safe to assume Pirates before Roger’s age weren’t to popular.
Rocks D Xebec was the Biggest and Baddest Pirate in the past. He was the captain of almost Every legend and big shot Pirate of the Pirate age that came after him, with Roger leading the wave.
No previous Emperors or Warlords are ever mentioned. Pirates were probably mostly fodder. I doubt any were as strong or dangerous, to where they got their existence erased like Xebec. Xebec seems to have been the OG Top Pirate of his time, but with that much potential/potency I’m sure there were no challengers(Roger)
Only the WG & Marines
We have no knowledge of such a power balance pre-Roger or Pre-Rocks….
I don’t believe the Emperor system existed. Even with the Warlord system, it seems it was formed after Roger died, & there was a boom in Pirates on the seas.
Pirating wasn’t as popular as it currently is after Roger’s death. So I think it would be safe to assume Pirates before Roger’s age weren’t to popular.
Rocks D Xebec was the Biggest and Baddest Pirate in the past. He was the captain of almost Every legend and big shot Pirate of the Pirate age that came after him, with Roger leading the wave.
No previous Emperors or Warlords are ever mentioned. With how Bad Xebec was with the potency/potential of his crew, other Pirates were probably mostly fodder. I doubt they got their existence erased like Xebec.
But Hannibal Psyche says emperors existed back then, so it must be true! He does write the manga after all, and if he says they were a thing back then, how dare you doubt him! Despite the lack of proof, we should trust him.
But Hannibal Psyche says emperors existed back then, so it must be true! He does write the manga after all, and if he says they were a thing back then, how dare you doubt him! Despite the lack of proof, we should trust him.
It doesn't mean there still weren't always 2-3 Pirates in the New World who were the most powerful and influential.
If Luffy can be considered an Emperor simply for:
Being strong.
Having a fleet.
Then the idea Emperors didn't exist is bad logic. Being strong and having a fleet aren't new things,
Shiki was said to have one of the biggest crews and we know of Rocks who had the most powerful and influential crew in the world 40 years ago, so we know Emperor figures did exist.
Shiki and Whitebeard are proof. You're just ignorant is all.
It's as dumb as saying Rich people didn't exist in One Piece until now.
Of course there's always been Rich people.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
It wasn't.
It doesn't mean there still weren't always 2-3 Pirates in the New World who were the most powerful and influential.
If Luffy can be considered an Emperor simply for:
Being strong.
Having a fleet.
Then the idea Emperors didn't exist is bad logic. Being strong and having a fleet aren't new things,
Shiki was said to have one of the biggest crews and we know of Rocks who had the most powerful and influential crew in the world 40 years ago, so we know Emperor figures did exist.
I understand it’s what should logically make sense. But that is actually us as fans extending One Piece lore for Oda to make it Perfect, or suit our needs.
None of these Past Emperors or another balance of power the Warlords in the One Piece World; Have been mentioned within the time frame before Roger. Leans more towards they weren’t there in the first place yet.
Shiki is referred as a Great Pirate, once a Rocks member & challenged Roger in a battle where the weather wasnt in his favor. He also escaped Impel down. He’s not referred as an Emperor.
Its headcannon to think there was, not bad headcannon but there’s no evidence to stand on besides they exist now.
My own headcannon is that there was always Pirates, or Adventures. Just very minimal amount would ever dare to leave their island or their side of the world to travel the Grandline. xebec was just a bad MF, out of any Pirate from his time, he gathered up all the Greats we now know & failed at his dreams.
When Rocks Crew disbanded; They became the Great Pirates of that Era. Roger became Pirate King. His Martyrdom lead there to be too many Pirates for the Marines and WG to govern. So they formed the Warlords, Pirate Emperors bean to form in the New World, where they didn’t hold a big influence
I understand it’s what should logically make sense. But that is actually us as fans extending One Piece lore for Oda to make it Perfect, or suit our needs.
None of these Past Emperors or another balance of power the Warlords in the One Piece World; Have been mentioned within the time frame before Roger. Leans more towards they weren’t there in the first place yet.
Shiki is referred as a Great Pirate, once a Rocks member & challenged Roger in a battle where the weather wasnt in his favor. He also escaped Impel down. He’s not referred as an Emperor.
Its headcannon to think there was, not bad headcannon but there’s no evidence to stand on besides they exist now.
My own headcannon is that there was always Pirates, or Adventures. Just very minimal amount would ever dare to leave their island or their side of the world to travel the Grandline. xebec was just a bad MF, out of any Pirate from his time, he gathered up all the Greats we now know & failed at his dreams.
When Rocks Crew disbanded; They became the Great Pirates of that Era. Roger became Pirate King. His Martyrdom lead there to be too many Pirates for the Marines and WG to govern. So they formed the Warlords, Pirate Emperors bean to form in the New World, where they didn’t hold a big influence
Roger was already Great Pirate before the God valley incident.
In fact he has already reached the end of the New World, 1 year before aka lodestar( island noone had visited in 800 years, where learned of the kozuki and poneglyphs, and was at the Peak of his powers while healthy as well.
The Xebec fight was his EOS fight. After that he has already achieved everything he wanted except going to laughtale.
Roger started his crew 52+ years ago. He was already a famous rookie when Brook was alive and sailing with the rumbar pirates.
