Discussion Zeldris, Meliodas and Estarossa

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

At this point I don't see Nakaba making Estarossa appear without his Magic and right now Mel is not here. Even if it's the day I don't think Escanor ar 50K is a match for him.

Spoiler: Red Hawk translation

Spoiler: Mangastream translation

RH translation has always been more correct but it's hard to know if he's talking about Estarossa or Zel. Logically thinking though, Estarossa makes more sense IMO. Zeldris is the youngest but just being brothers doesn't mean they have a similar voice. Plus they were all sealed before Hendrickson's birth.

Still, Estarossa is the one depicted on Meliodas's wanted poster. We once thought that Meliodas's appearance was not his real one and now that we have seen his peers, he and Zeldris are the only ones who look like kids(besides Gloxinia who was originally a Fairy). Maybe both have an adult form with Mel and Estarossa being twins? I once read that identical twins can have a similar voices.

Meliodas is born a July 25 and Zeldris a February 5, since we know Meliodas is older it means they are not born in the same year. Nakaba revealed several birth dates but not Estarossa's .

This is all good and all, but then we have this
http://mangayou.com/mangafox/nanatsu-no-taizai-2/325510

Ren mistakes Mel for Zeldris, she even think they have the same appearance, and she even says they have the same provocative aura.
Normally if Mel and Zel had different voices, she would realize it's not the same person, no? And yet even after Mel talks to her she still doesn't realize they're two different people.
Hence why I think Zel could in fact be the one with the same voice as Mel. And it's not just identical twins who can have the same voice, me and my sister have pretty close voices, and on the phone we sound exactly the same. So people mistake us for one another all the time.

And voices aren't as unique as let's say your fingerprints, some people can imitate voices without the use of magic irl.

 

[Kay3795]

I've got a feeling that the spell caster, vampiric-looking commandment was hailed as a mighty, kingly creature of the night but his rein came to an end as Zelzris subdued him in combat.

 

[Demonspeed]

This is all good and all, but then we have this
http://mangayou.com/mangafox/nanatsu-no-taizai-2/325510

Ren mistakes Mel for Zeldris, she even think they have the same appearance, and she even says they have the same provocative aura.
Normally if Mel and Zel had different voices, she would realize it's not the same person, no? And yet even after Mel talks to her she still doesn't realize they're two different people.
Hence why I think Zel could in fact be the one with the same voice as Mel. And it's not just identical twins who can have the same voice, me and my sister have pretty close voices, and on the phone we sound exactly the same. So people mistake us for one another all the time.

And voices aren't as unique as let's say your fingerprints, some people can imitate voices without the use of magic irl.

It doesn't disprove what I said actually. Mel and Zel resemblance is glaring but Meliodas is blond, that's a big difference already. She thought it was him because of his aura and sliced his mask, the striking resemblance convinced her more while the panel with Gelda made it clear that she had realized that it was not him. Ren said that his personality has changed, she didn't mention his voice or hair color and died, she was old too. Hendrickson however, only mentioned a familiar voice and is much younger, he didn't know Zeldris or Estarossa. Back then I thought they were twins and Mel the older one but their birth dates are different. If they have a similar voice despite Zeldris being younger from at least 7 months as you said everything makes sense, Zeldris is the one talking becomes much more likely. But the possibility that Estarossa and Meliodas are twins, that the latter and Zeldris have an adult form and that Estarossa might have been the one to mention his name still exists since identical twins having a similar voice is more frequent, and there is the poster mystery.

Following manga logic, everything points out that it's Zeldris, he is the one highlighted the most in this chapter but as I said when I disregard that and uses only what we know so far Estarossa is more likely.

 

[gnut]

At this point I don't see Nakaba making Estarossa appear without his Magic and right now Mel is not here. Even if it's the day I don't think Escanor ar 50K is a match for him.

Spoiler: Red Hawk translation

Spoiler: Mangastream translation

RH translation has always been more correct but it's hard to know if he's talking about Estarossa or Zel. Logically thinking though, Estarossa makes more sense IMO. Zeldris is the youngest but just being brothers doesn't mean they have a similar voice. Plus they were all sealed before Hendrickson's birth.

Still, Estarossa is the one depicted on Meliodas's wanted poster. We once thought that Meliodas's appearance was not his real one and now that we have seen his peers, he and Zeldris are the only ones who look like kids(besides Gloxinia who was originally a Fairy). Maybe both have an adult form with Mel and Estarossa being twins? I once read that identical twins can have a similar voices.

Meliodas is born a July 25 and Zeldris a February 5, since we know Meliodas is older it means they are not born in the same year. Nakaba revealed several birth dates but not Estarossa's .

my 2cents is....it's estarossa.
1)being he invades nightmares/dreams

2)the fact fraudrin is describing the sins and the voices says meliodas....who else out of the commandments would know mel is part of them.
unless mel have sins in the past....ex. glox and dolor?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

It doesn't disprove what I said actually. Mel and Zel resemblance is glaring but Meliodas is blond, that's a big difference already. She thought it was him because of his aura and sliced his mask, the striking resemblance convinced her more while the panel with Gelda made it clear that she had realized that it was not him. Ren said that his personality has changed, she didn't mention his voice or hair color and died, she was old too. Hendrickson however, only mentioned a familiar voice and is much younger, he didn't know Zeldris or Estarossa. Back then I thought they were twins and Mel the older one but their birth dates are different. If they have a similar voice despite Zeldris being younger from at least 7 months as you said everything makes sense, Zeldris is the one talking becomes much more likely. But the possibility that Estarossa and Meliodas are twins, that the latter and Zeldris have an adult form and that Estarossa might have been the one to mention his name still exists since identical twins having a similar voice is more frequent, and there is the poster mystery.

Following manga logic, everything points out that it's Zeldris, he is the one highlighted the most in this chapter but as I said when I disregard that and uses only what we know so far Estarossa is more likely.

She still thinks it's Zeldris even after his mask is broken. As far as voices go, siblings have a chance of having similar voices, even if Mel and Zel aren't twins, there's still the possiblity of their voices being similar. Estarossa hasn't shown any interest in Mel so far, and the same can be said about Mel who is only referring to Zel as his brother(again in the Edinburgh special). Not once have we seen those two acknowledge each other, the same cannot be said about Mel and Zel who do. So in that panel, Zel reacting to Mel is more likely than Estarossa reacting to Mel.

You're disregarding everything that happened with Ren, and just seem to hold on to the fact that we don't have Estarossa's birthday. While chances are he shares Mel, that is not the only valid interpretation. There's also the possiblity of Estarossa's birthday having something to do with the demon king and as such can be regarded as a spoiler, or the other theory that him and Mel were once the same being, with one inheriting the bad side (Estarossa) while the other inherited the good side (Mel). And I'm really inclined to think this is the case, because according to Mel in this same chapter once you go demon you can't go back,you go bad. But doesn't that apply to him as well? Unless of course there is no evil in him, and it has been "purged", and it's actually Estarossa who inherited Mel's evil side. So he wouldn't fear to go fully bad like Dolor and Gloxinia.At this point it can be anything, and it can be something as trivial as Suzuki not having found a right date. We simply know jack shit about Estarossa, other than him being supposedly Mel's brother and not having his birthday. So how can you be so sure that he is Mel's twin?

And based on appearance alone, I find that Zel looks more like Mel. Estarossa's hair is actually gray, and in terms of body size and even aura Zel looks more close to Mel, but that's just me.Like you said yourself, Estarossa looks like a grown up version of Mel. If anything it's Zel and Mel who should have been twins, not identical of course.

 

[Yakkun]

They both share similarities, those brothers, making them both equally likely candidates. Which makes me think, who is their mother anyway?

I guess the anime will finally show who is talking and whose voice it is which Hendricksen recognizes. My money has always been and still is on Estarossa. Simply for the fact that he is the guy who looks like the man on the wanted poster and that mystery still hasn't been cleared up while being the elephant in the room for the entire duration of the series.

 

[Demonspeed]

I still haven't forgotten what Helbram said though he could be wrong. Mel and Zel might have a human mother, and Estarossa has another one.

 

[Yakkun]

I still haven't forgotten what Helbram said though he could be wrong. Mel and Zel might have a human mother, and Estarossa has another one.

This could be. And it would further support the notion that the Commandments are formed by many different species joining ranks with the demon clan rather than being natural born demons.

 

[kkck]

I got distracted by Zeldris being more prominent at some point. I forgot Estarossa appearing on the poster and in Elizabeths dream.

This is weird considering meliodas always brings up zeldris... At least to me it is weird that meliodas seems to focus more on zeldris than he does on estarrosa. Perhaps the issue here is a bit of context we are missing. When it comes to fighting the commandments it kinda seems like zeldris might be the one meliodas does not want to fight. Even though estarrosa is also his little bro as well. Perhaps the issue here is that meliodas does not seem zeldris as unredeemable, unlike estarrosa. Estarosa is clearly insane for the most part so it would make sense that mel would think of his in a similar manner to the way he thinks of dolor and gloxinia who are far too deep into the dark side to come back. In turn if he sees zeldris as still having some good in him then it would make sense that meliodas would dread fighting him, his youngest brother.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

This is weird considering meliodas always brings up zeldris... At least to me it is weird that meliodas seems to focus more on zeldris than he does on estarrosa. Perhaps the issue here is a bit of context we are missing. When it comes to fighting the commandments it kinda seems like zeldris might be the one meliodas does not want to fight. Even though estarrosa is also his little bro as well. Perhaps the issue here is that meliodas does not seem zeldris as unredeemable, unlike estarrosa. Estarosa is clearly insane for the most part so it would make sense that mel would think of his in a similar manner to the way he thinks of dolor and gloxinia who are far too deep into the dark side to come back. In turn if he sees zeldris as still having some good in him then it would make sense that meliodas would dread fighting him, his youngest brother.

It's called guilt, maybe he feels more guilty about abandoning Zel than he ever felt about not living up to Estarossa's expectancies. Zel was prolly very young when Mel betrayed the demons, so at that point he could be still innocent, and with Mel not around the only example he had of an older brother was Estarossa, who is pretty extreme. That's why Mel said that he's a failure of an older brother, he wasn't around at a time where Zel was pretty young and impressionable, and the only role model he had was Estarossa.
Maybe Suzuki is hinting at Zel getting possibly redeemed in the future, he could definitely be more reasonable than Estarossa, and he could also be the only one who could sympathize with Mel, if it turns out he betrayed the demon clan because of the woman he loved....We saw Zel being lenient because of Gelda whom he apparently loved.
So these two could have that in common.

 

[LivewireToriko]

Estarossa completely overshadowed Zeldris when he finally did something.

Is he the real leader, or is just that he's the strongest member that gives him a authoritarian like presence among the group?

Could be similar to escanor and Meliodas with Meliodas being the leader, but escanor still getting respect from the other members because he's like 16x stronger than the rest of them not even at his full power.

King and Diane are the most weary of him, and not even ban talked sh*t to day escanor when he gave him a order to sit still and wait until he comes back at night.

 

[Tragicdeath]

Im still not counting off Zeldris in conversation of OP. His speed is as sleek as Estarossa I assume, slashed Mels arm in an instance comparable to Estarossa's Mel RC's stoppage. Were Estarossa stronger than Zeldris, the disparity would be just hairline. Though I wouldnt be surprised if Zeldris is stronger than Estarossa on the other hand. Either of them couls be faster or Stronger than the other but not both

 

[kkck]

It's called guilt, maybe he feels more guilty about abandoning Zel than he ever felt about not living up to Estarossa's expectancies. Zel was prolly very young when Mel betrayed the demons, so at that point he could be still innocent, and with Mel not around the only example he had of an older brother was Estarossa, who is pretty extreme. That's why Mel said that he's a failure of an older brother, he wasn't around at a time where Zel was pretty young and impressionable, and the only role model he had was Estarossa.
Maybe Suzuki is hinting at Zel getting possibly redeemed in the future, he could definitely be more reasonable than Estarossa, and he could also be the only one who could sympathize with Mel, if it turns out he betrayed the demon clan because of the woman he loved....We saw Zel being lenient because of Gelda whom he apparently loved.
So these two could have that in common.

Well, that would be plausible assuming zeldris was really a kid in a sense relevent to him being impressionable and whatnot which I would think we have reason to question. As of when mel left the commandments there were 3 spots open. Two because of the guys he apparently killed and obviously his own spot. With that in mind it stands to reason that at least eventually zeldris was the one who took over the spot left by mel, even before gloxinia and dolor joined the commandments (if we consider the phrasing in the translation at least). With that in mind it does not seem like that much time could have happened between the time mel defected and zeldris joined the commandments. At least he wouldn't be in the impressionable child state of his life anymore.

I think the key difference here is how mel feels about estarrosa and his zeldris. So far meliodas has made the zeldris point, as in, he is the one where he has the most regrets. Even though estarrosa would be every bit as much his younger brother. To me that shows strong evidence that mel sees estarosa in the same light as he sees gloxinia and dolor and leaves some room to suggest he might see a chance of redemption in zeldris. Of course, there could be a fair bit more plot to this but we have very little evidence to really suggest more.

 

[Yakkun]

Chances are Meliodas simply cares about Zel more because they are more similar and also because he was - as you guys already said - a small child and impressionable while Estarossa at his young age could already take care of his own. We also don't really know how many years they are apart or how fast demon children grow up in the first place. Or why Mel and Zel especially seem to not age and grow while Estarossa somehow did. Biological clusterfuck galore.

Maybe Meliodas also saw Zeldris become more and more like him since I don't see the war being wrapped up in a matter of days, weeks or months. It probably lasted years if not decades. Or even centuries, overall. Zeldris might have been around but not a member of the Commandments yet. Maybe Meliodas saw Zeldris becoming like him while he himself became more and more estranged by his own people and started isolating himself when he began to change. And he regrets what his brother has become because he was unable to guide him and show him an alternative lifestyle.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Well, that would be plausible assuming zeldris was really a kid in a sense relevent to him being impressionable and whatnot which I would think we have reason to question. As of when mel left the commandments there were 3 spots open. Two because of the guys he apparently killed and obviously his own spot. With that in mind it stands to reason that at least eventually zeldris was the one who took over the spot left by mel, even before gloxinia and dolor joined the commandments (if we consider the phrasing in the translation at least). With that in mind it does not seem like that much time could have happened between the time mel defected and zeldris joined the commandments. At least he wouldn't be in the impressionable child state of his life anymore.

I think the key difference here is how mel feels about estarrosa and his zeldris. So far meliodas has made the zeldris point, as in, he is the one where he has the most regrets. Even though estarrosa would be every bit as much his younger brother. To me that shows strong evidence that mel sees estarosa in the same light as he sees gloxinia and dolor and leaves some room to suggest he might see a chance of redemption in zeldris. Of course, there could be a fair bit more plot to this but we have very little evidence to really suggest more.

I don't see it that way. Estarossa is the one who filled in Mel's spot, and Zel filled in his spot. Get what I mean? Estarossa became the leader, while Zel became the second in command if you will, and he'd also be in a position where he's admiring his older brother, just like Estarossa was admiring Mel back when he was captain.It's a technicality but it's still worth noting, since it definitely looks like Estarossa is the captain/leader of the TCs. He's the laid back type of leader for sure, only taking actions when necessary.

We saw commandments like Mera, Derrierie, possibly Gray Lord too join as kids. So it's possible that Zel also joined as a kid, and around that time Mel betrayed the demons. We have proof that it's possible for a kid to join the TCs, and it goes without saying that there's no proof that Zel was already born during the flashback scene, nor do I think that Zel is an adult now.

If you think about it, Zel looks just like Mel and Estarossa from the flashback. It's pretty much hinted that they were kids/teenagers back then, and we have the fact that only Estarossa seems to have an adult form. Mel for some reason got stuck in that form, but at the same time he was able to live three times the lifetime of a demon, so those two must be related. So he pretty much got stuck in that form and wouldn't age.
So Zel right now looks like a teenager, same as Melstarossa during the flashback, and we know it's possible for demons to age as seen with Estarossa, Mera, Derrierie etc.

So in short Zel was a kid when he joined up the TCs, Mel's betrayal could have happened around the same time, he still looks like a teenager too. So this fits with the theory I have about Zel still being a kid back when Mel left, and that is why the later feels more guilty about him since he abandoned him while he was in an age when he needed someone other than Estarossa as a role model.

 

[kkck]

I don't see it that way. Estarossa is the one who filled in Mel's spot, and Zel filled in his spot. Get what I mean? Estarossa became the leader, while Zel became the second in command if you will, and he'd also be in a position where he's admiring his older brother, just like Estarossa was admiring Mel back when he was captain.

We saw commandments like Mera, Derrierie, possibly Gray Lord too join as kids. So it's possible that Zel also joined as a kid, and around that time Mel betrayed the demons. We have proof that it's possible for a kid to join the TCs, and it goes without saying that there's no proof that Zel was already born during the flashback scene, nor do I think that Zel is an adult now.

If you think about it, Zel looks just like Mel and Estarossa from the flashback. It's pretty much hinted that they were kids/teenagers back then, and we have the fact that only Estarossa seems to have an adult form. Mel for some reason got stuck in that form, but at the same time he was able to live three times the lifetime of a demon, so those two must be related. So he pretty much got stuck in that form and wouldn't age.
So Zel right now looks like a teenager, same as Melstarossa during the flashback, and we know it's possible for demons to age as seen with Estarossa, Mera, Derrierie etc.

So in short Zel was a kid when he joined up the TCs, Mel's betrayal could have happened around the same time, he still looks like a teenager too. So this fits with the theory I have about Zel still being a kid back when Mel left, and that is why the later feels more guilty about him since he abandoned him while he was in an age when he needed someone other than Estarossa as a role model.

Well, that is more of a technicality... I am not sure if that specific chain is all that important.

Seeing the commandments as biologically younger is IMO a non issue. Demons live for hundreds of years and those made it to commandments looking younger. With that in mind I seriously doubt they were kids mentally. It would be like saying mel or zeldris are currently little kids and are impressionable and whatnot. It simply does not make sense.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Well, that is more of a technicality... I am not sure if that specific chain is all that important.

Seeing the commandments as biologically younger is IMO a non issue. Demons live for hundreds of years and those made it to commandments looking younger. With that in mind I seriously doubt they were kids mentally. It would be like saying mel or zeldris are currently little kids and are impressionable and whatnot. It simply does not make sense.

We know for a fact that something is wrong with Mel, Galan said that the lifespan of a demon is a 1000 years , yet Mel lived for more than 3 times that amount, and he wasn't sealed.
Also Galan remarked that Mel hasn't changed physically from 3000 years ago. Why would he make that remark if demons do not age, and while they could have a child's body they could be much older than that? So Mel's appearance is not normal, something must have happened that made him stop aging, and allowed him to live more than the regular lifespan of a demon.
Zeldris was inside the seal so he too didn't age. The demons were preserved thanks to the seal because they would have died if it weren't for it.

There is clear evidence in the manga that demons age, starting with the commandments themselves who were shown as children. And we can't exclude the possibility that their mental age at one point was that of a child. There's nothing that suggests otherwise, that they were born as adults.

 

[kkck]

We know for a fact that something is wrong with Mel, Galan said that the lifespan of a demon is a 1000 years , yet Mel lived for more than 3 times that amount, and he wasn't sealed.
Also Galan remarked that Mel hasn't changed physically from 3000 years ago. Why would he make that remark if demons do not age, and while they could have a child's body they could be much older than that? So Mel's appearance is not normal, something must have happened that made him stop aging, and allowed him to live more than the regular lifespan of a demon.
Zeldris was inside the seal so he too didn't age. The demons were preserved thanks to the seal because they would have died if it weren't for it.

There is clear evidence in the manga that demons age, starting with the commandments themselves who were shown as children. And we can't exclude the possibility that their mental age at one point was that of a child. There's nothing that suggests otherwise, that they were born as adults.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my post, I have not questioned demons aging. My point was about zeldris being a young impressionable child having something to do with mel thinking of him differently from estarosa. It is extremely unlikely that zeldris is such a thing considering he is a commandment of more than considerable power. Even if zeldris is biologically a demon child he should by all intents and purposes have a pretty adult mind.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

This has absolutely nothing to do with my post, I have not questioned demons aging. My point was about zeldris being a young impressionable child having something to do with mel thinking of him differently from estarosa. It is extremely unlikely that zeldris is such a thing considering he is a commandment of more than considerable power. Even if zeldris is biologically a demon child he should by all intents and purposes have a pretty adult mind.

But why do you assume it was always the case? Do you honestly think he was born with an adult's mind? That makes absolutely no sense.
I meant in the past, before Mel's betrayal. Once he was gone, all he had left was Estarossa whom he can take as a model, not Mel.
That would warp his vision of the world, and would just make him believe all the demon crap about humans needing to be exterminated etc.

After Mel was "converted" it's likely he would have changed his mind about a few things, including how he perceives humans etc. That's just one example of how Mel's vision could have changed, and if he was around back then he could have influenced Zeldris in a good way, compared to Estarossa whose influence is most likely bad.

 

[kkck]

But why do you assume it was always the case? Do you honestly think he was born with an adult's mind? That makes absolutely no sense.
I meant in the past, before Mel's betrayal. Once he was gone, all he had left was Estarossa whom he can take as a model, not Mel.
That would warp his vision of the world, and would just make him believe all the demon crap about humans needing to be exterminated etc.

After Mel was "converted" it's likely he would have changed his mind about a few things, including how he perceives humans etc. That's just one example of how Mel's vision could have changed, and if he was around back then he could have influenced Zeldris in a good way, compared to Estarossa whose influence is most likely bad.

Of course he wasn't born with an adult mind. But you are assuming that at the time mel defected zeldris would have been an actual child. We don't know the actual timespan of the war but to me it sounds extremely unlikely that zeldris was really THAT young through the whole thing. At the height of the war he would be the age he is, well, right now because the seal prevented him from aging. Even if at the precise time meliodas defected zeldris was too young, he was definitely an adult from a mental point of view by the time he would have crossed swords with mel during the war. If zeldris was really affected by estarosa in the way you suggest I really doubt mel would view him differently from estarosa.