Team Zeref vs Crime Sorciere

[atlantisreturns]

First: Meh, he was jobbing hard.
Second: So? Zerefs fights the way he fights.
Third: You're only good point here, and it only puts Zeref above Base Natsu, maybe, not enough for me to say he beats Crime Sorciere.

Did you read my post ? Zeref is above Dragon Force Natsu , not base Natsu. You're not telling me Jellal can defeat Animus now ....

So?
Zeref has only ever time stopped fodders, not impressed.

Whether Zeref's hax will work or not depends on his MP. Considering he's above DF Natsu , he is comfortably above Jellal too. And about what about Law ? The spell which oneshotted a dragon ?

Don't care about any of this, it's non offensive magic. I'm not saying Crime Sorciere beats Zeref in a magic talent show, I'm saying they beat him up in a fight.

Enchantment is non offensive magic ? Spatial magic is non offensive ? Then why are Irene and Jacob regarded as threats ?

Kek.

Kek. What I stated was a fact. Larcade indeed does floor them. May be I stated it in a harsh way , but look at the facts. The guy completely floored Gildarts and Laxus , and is the third strongest Spriggan. He was beaten due to heavy type advantages , and even then he was beaten only because he was holding back ( check my debunk thread). In a serious fight , he will decimate them.


Idk why is Zeref downplayed to such an extent here , when Larcade can beat CS and people think he can't. Especially when he's stronger than all Spriggans. Lol.

P.S. : Do you guys even know what the 100 year quest represents ? If you closely look at it , it's the author's way of telling us the hierarchy of the last arc. Specially for those who think base Natsu defeated Zeref and Acnologia.

The 5 dragon gods represent Acnologia . Touka represents Zeref. Remember how Natsu got taken down when he tried to punch Mercu with his own power ? It was the author telling us that Natsu did not defeat Acno solely with his own power. He had a powerup , like Ignia flames. And Acno wasn't at his full strength either , he was disoriented , i.e. 50% Mercuphobia. Similar is the case with Zeref , he practically did not use magic throughout the fight for Natsu to survive , and Natsu wasn't stronger than him. That's the reason they have compared them with Zeref and Acno. There is not other reason , it's to clear people's misconceptions.

 

[Seven777]

Did you read my post ? Zeref is above Dragon Force Natsu , not base Natsu. You're not telling me Jellal can defeat Animus now ....

Above Dragon Force Natsu? Dragon Force Natsu oneshots Zeref, they're not on the same tier.

Whether Zeref's hax will work or not depends on his MP. Considering he's above DF Natsu , he is comfortably above Jellal too. And about what about Law ? The spell which oneshotted a dragon ?

Nah, whether Zeref's hax works depends on how good the hax is. Didn't use it on Natsu, so probably not that good.
What about Law? Should I be impressed by a bunch of dragon bones?

Enchantment is non offensive magic ? Spatial magic is non offensive ? Then why are Irene and Jacob regarded as threats ?

The examples you gave of them are.

Kek. What I stated was a fact. Larcade indeed does floor them. May be I stated it in a harsh way , but look at the facts. The guy completely floored Gildarts and Laxus , and is the third strongest Spriggan. He was beaten due to heavy type advantages , and even then he was beaten only because he was holding back ( check my debunk thread). In a serious fight , he will decimate them.

Kek.

Idk why is Zeref downplayed to such an extent here , when Larcade can beat CS and people think he can't. Especially when he's stronger than all Spriggans. Lol.

Because he's the biggest jobber in the series.

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

Kek. What I stated was a fact. Larcade indeed does floor them. May be I stated it in a harsh way , but look at the facts. The guy completely floored Gildarts and Laxus , and is the third strongest Spriggan. He was beaten due to heavy type advantages , and even then he was beaten only because he was holding back ( check my debunk thread). In a serious fight , he will decimate them.

He floored Gildarts and Laxus with his pleasure spell because they met its requirement. Warren wasn't affected by his pleasure spell so does this make Warren > Gildarts. When he tried to force even someone like Kaguya was able to overcome. No way will Jellal fall down to that pleasure spell.

 

[atlantisreturns]

Above Dragon Force Natsu? Dragon Force Natsu oneshots Zeref, they're not on the same tier.

He tanked 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu , who was a fair bit above Dragon Force. And Zeref even stated that Natsu would require to turn into a full dragon like Igneel or Acnologia to defeat him , and he's still above his Dragon Force. That's the reason he took Fairy Heart.

Nah, whether Zeref's hax works depends on how good the hax is. Didn't use it on Natsu, so probably not that good.

In FT , whether hax works or not depends on the magic power of the caster. Neinhart's magic power was more than Brandish , so Brandish's hax didn't work on him. END's magic power was more than Dimaria , so Dimaria's hax didn't work on him. Power is determined using magic power too. For example , Irene can terraform a country , and Acnologia has busted nothing more than an island and Igneel has busted only mountains. Yet they can oneshot her because more MP.

What about Law? Should I be impressed by a bunch of dragon bones?

It's a dragon , with insane magic power, even though he was dead. So yeah .

The examples you gave of them are.

Enchanting a dragon back to a human ? Umm , I would consider that a good feat .

Kek.

Not sure what to say here , I told you why Larcade wins , and even debunked every lie about him in the thread I linked. I even proved how he was winning the fight the entire time . But if all you've got is "kek" then ....

Because he's the biggest jobber in the series.

He's got high showings too , which we shouldn't ignore. It's like saying Acnologia is weaker than Christina and as strong as Jellal because he couldn't kill him.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 30, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 30, 2019 ---

He floored Gildarts and Laxus with his pleasure spell because they met its requirement. Warren wasn't affected by his pleasure spell so does this make Warren > Gildarts. When he tried to force even someone like Kaguya was able to overcome. No way will Jellal fall down to that pleasure spell.

That just helps to establish that his magic power is more than them. Everyone was affected , but difference is being floored outright or not. Irene was affected too , yet she could at least stand. We see Gildarts and Laxus were floored , and it's not strange at all. We've got statements too of Larcade being the third strongest Spriggan , and God Serena was said by Gildarts himself to be equal to him.

After it's established Larcade's MP is more , he can spam RIP. Unless they've got counters to sleep , they lose. And they don't have high MP to resist it.

 

[Seven777]

He tanked 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu , who was a fair bit above Dragon Force. And Zeref even stated that Natsu would require to turn into a full dragon like Igneel or Acnologia to defeat him , and he's still above his Dragon Force. That's the reason he took Fairy Heart.

Uhuh, and he got incinerated by Dragon Force... which is Dragon Force. What Zeref's states means nothing, since in the end Natsu did defeat him.

In FT , whether hax works or not depends on the magic power of the caster. Neinhart's magic power was more than Brandish , so Brandish's hax didn't work on him. END's magic power was more than Dimaria , so Dimaria's hax didn't work on him. Power is determined using magic power too. For example , Irene can terraform a country , and Acnologia has busted nothing more than an island and Igneel has busted only mountains. Yet they can oneshot her because more MP.

No, in FT whether hax works depends on the hax. Brandish's magic power is above Mests, Mest still raped her mind though.

It's a dragon , with insane magic power, even though he was dead. So yeah .

Meh

Enchanting a dragon back to a human ? Umm , I would consider that a good feat .

It is, just not a battle one.

Not sure what to say here , I told you why Larcade wins , and even debunked every lie about him in the thread I linked. I even proved how he was winning the fight the entire time . But if all you've got is "kek" then ....

You can tell me about Larcade all you want, this thread isn't Larcade vs Crime Sorciere. If you want me to discuss it make a thread and bait me into it. Until then "kek" is all you get.

He's got high showings too , which we shouldn't ignore. It's like saying Acnologia is weaker than Christina and as strong as Jellal because he couldn't kill him.

Acno is a jobber too, but at least it required more than Natsu to beat him.

 

[atlantisreturns]

Uhuh, and he got incinerated by Dragon Force... which is Dragon Force. What Zeref's states means nothing, since in the end Natsu defeated him.

He was defeated by Savage Flames of Emotion , not Dragon Force. And they're on a different level as compared to Dragon Force , since Zeref was standing even after taking 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu and it took just one attack from Savage Flames of Emotion to K.O. him. Zeref stated Natsu can't defeat him in Dragon Force. He didn't say anything about Savage Flames.
[/QUOTE]

No, in FT whether hax works depends on the hax. Brandish's magic power is above Mests, Mest still raped her mind though.

I don't know what to say about that one , but we know whether hax works or not depends on MP. Brandish said she can't affect END because his magic power was more. Dimaria said , " How can he have more magic power than a God ?". Neinhart said , "My magic power has outstripped it's limits !". And so on.

Meh

... ?

It is, just not a battle one.

Explain why can't he do what Irene does in battle.

You can tell me about Larcade all you want, this thread isn't Larcade vs Crime Sorciere. If you want me to discuss it make a thread and bait me into it. Until then "kek" is all you get.

I'm emphasizing this to make notice how stupid the notion of CS beating Zeref is.

Acno is a jobber too, but at least it required more than Natsu to beat him.

Completely ignore the fact that Savage Flames of Emotion Natsu was lot stronger than anybody ? Just see whether the keyword "Natsu" is present ? Sure , no bias here.

 

[Seven777]

He was defeated by Savage Flames of Emotion , not Dragon Force. And they're on a different level as compared to Dragon Force , since Zeref was standing even after taking 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu and it took just one attack from Savage Flames of Emotion to K.O. him. Zeref stated Natsu can't defeat him in Dragon Force. He didn't say anything about Savage Flames.

So? Doesn't make Zeref's statement any less wrong. Villains always(usually) say they'll win.

I don't know what to say about that one , but we know whether hax works or not depends on MP. Brandish said she can't affect END because his magic power was more. Dimaria said , " How can he have more magic power than a God ?". Neinhart said , "My magic power has outstripped it's limits !". And so on.

Not really, we know that Brandish's hax works on MP, but there's a lot of hax out there, and they often function differently. Like Mests, or the Thunder Legions(worked on Erza), or that Card guys(turned Erza into a card), or Larcades(worked on Eileen), the list goes on and on. Some characters(like Brandish) are limited by their opponents MP, some characters(like Larcade) have different requirements for their hax to function. Most hax works differently.

... ?

No feats, no argument. The most that dragon did is bust a few buildings.

Explain why can't he do what Irene does in battle.

Because none of CS are dragons.

I'm emphasizing this to make notice how stupid the notion of CS beating Zeref is.

Don't care. If you want to discuss how strong Larcade is compared to CS, make a thread(here's a teaser, I think Jellal could solo, mid diff).

Completely ignore the fact that Savage Flames of Emotion Natsu was lot stronger than anybody ? Just see whether the keyword "Natsu" is present ? Sure , no bias here.

It's not just Savage Emotions that made Zeref a jobber(though thats a huge part of it) its his entire final battle.

 

[atlantisreturns]

So? Doesn't make Zeref's statement any less wrong. Zeref said Natsu couldn't win, he said it again in his FH version, what Zeref says doesn't mean a thing, villains always(usually) say they'll win.

He never said it once Natsu activated Savage Flames of Emotion. Zeref exactly knows when the other opponent is stronger than him , he knew it when Natsu had Igneel's power. He knew it during Acnologia. He can sense magic perfectly. He saw Savage Flames Natsu as his equal or perhaps superior , that's why he got serious and tried to punch with all his darkness combined and didn't play around. Not only that , he actually said Natsu CAN defeat him if he turna into a dragon like Acnologia , but just not in Dragon Force.
[/QUOTE]

Not really, we know that Brandish's hax works on MP, but there's a lot of hax out there, and they often function differently. Like Mests, or the Thunder Legions(worked on Erza), or that Card guys(turned Erza into a card), or Larcades(worked on Eileen), the list goes on and on. Some characters(like Brandish) are limited by their opponents MP, some characters(like Larcade) have different requirements for their hax to function. Most hax works differently.

Either way , doesn't matter. This doesn't stop Zeref's hax from not working on Natsu since he has less MP than him.

No feats, no argument. The most that dragon did is bust a few buildings.

It's a dragon dude ...

Because none of CS are dragons.

Dragon like Irene > CS. If he can do it to her , so can he do it to CS.

Don't care. If you want to discuss how strong Larcade is compared to CS, make a thread(here's a teaser, I think Jellal could solo, mid diff).

Despite they having absolutely zero counter to his RIP ? Okay ...

It's not just Savage Emotions that made Zeref a jobber(though thats a huge part of it) its his entire final battle.

Ignores that Zeref was holding back in their battle , not using magic , and still scales him to physical attacks when he has shown a lot more.

 

[Seven777]

He never said it once Natsu activated Savage Flames of Emotion. Zeref exactly knows when the other opponent is stronger than him , he knew it when Natsu had Igneel's power. He knew it during Acnologia. He can sense magic perfectly. He saw Savage Flames Natsu as his equal or perhaps superior , that's why he got serious and tried to punch with all his darkness combined and didn't play around.

Sure, he just said Natsu couldn't win without a dragon form, which was a factually incorrect statement.

Either way , doesn't matter. This doesn't stop Zeref's hax from not working on Natsu since he has less MP than him.

It does, since as I said, different hax works differently.

It's a dragon dude ...

A dead dragon. Are you saying Mavis solos CS too?

Dragon like Irene > CS. If he can do it to her , so can he do it to CS.

Do what? Reverse their dragonification? Good for him.

Despite they having absolutely zero counter to his RIP ? Okay ...

Kek.

Ignores that Zeref was holding back in their battle , not using magic , and still scales him to physical attacks when he has shown a lot more.

Sounds like a lot of opinion here.

 

[atlantisreturns]

Sure, he just said Natsu couldn't win without a dragon form, which was a factually incorrect statement.

"That wouldn't help you beat me Natsu. If you only had the power to turn into a dragon , like Acnologia."
"It came to this because you couldn't beat me."

He's talking specifically about Dragon Force.

It does, since as I said, different hax works differently.

Natsu is weaker in terms of MP , so it would be useless if you can't affect someone weaker than you.

A dead dragon. Are you saying Mavis solos CS too?

Actually yes , if she can pull off Law. She has infinite MP.

Do what? Reverse their dragonification? Good for him.

Enchantment is not just about turning dragons into humans , you know. I gave that example because you would say he can only enchant fodders. He enchanted Irene , who was stronger than all of CS. So he would do what Irene does in battle : turn them into animals.

Kek.

Okay , I accept your concession.

Sounds like a lot of opinion here.

Not a shred of opinion , I am saying this with Zeref himself stating he's holding back and from obvious implications.

Plus , have you wondered why Irene didn't enter FT by herself and take FH ? Why did she want Zeref to use it ? She wanted the war to end and to kill Acnologia and avenge Belserion , why did she go to Zeref ? Why does Acnologia respect Zeref out of all people if he's a weakling as you downplay him to be ? Why did Acnologia suddenly hold Natsu in regard when he understood that he faced off against Zeref ? And you know August learnt magic from Zeref , right ? Zeref was stated to know all types of magics in existence . For comparison , look at it. Zeref tanked 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu. And Serena got oneshotted by Acnologia . Look at the stats.

 

[Seven777]

"That wouldn't help you beat me Natsu. If you only had the power to turn into a dragon , like Acnologia."
"It came to this because you couldn't beat me."

He's talking specifically about Dragon Force.

He was talking specifically about Natsu

Natsu is weaker in terms of MP , so it would be useless if you can't affect someone weaker than you.

As far as we've seen it is useless.

Actually yes , if she can pull off Law. She has infinite MP.

Was talking about Zero Mavis, when she was still a normal human, but whatever. Law working on that dead dragon impresses me about as much as Silver putting out Atlas Flame.

Enchantment is not just about turning dragons into humans , you know. I gave that example because you would say he can only enchant fodders. He enchanted Irene , so he would do what Irene does in battle : turn them into animals.

I know, but it's Zeref's only shown use of it, I'm not gonna assume he has more.

Okay , I accept your concession.

So that's a no on that Crime Sorciere vs Larcade thread? Sounds like a concession to me kek.

Not a shred of opinion , I am saying this with Zeref himself stating he's holding back and from obvious implications.

Zeref saying he's have fun =/= holding back.

 

[atlantisreturns]

He was talking specifically about Natsu

What does the statement mean to you ? " THAT wouldn't help you defeat me Natsu. If you only had the power to turn into a dragon.". What does "that" mean here ?

As far as we've seen it is useless.

Not using =× useless. He used his hax on Irene , he is capable of it.

Was talking about Zero Mavis, when she was still a normal human, but whatever. Law working on that dead dragon impresses me about as much as Silver putting out Atlas Flame.

There's actually more to it since he was resurrected . Any way , the basic function of Law is it oneshots people weaker in MP than you , we know it via Fairy Law.

I know, but it's Zeref's only shown use of it, I'm not gonna assume he has more.

Irene was taught higher enchantments by Zeref and you're saying Zeref can't use the enchantments he taught someone ? Cool.

So that's a no on that Crime Sorciere vs Larcade thread? Sounds like a concession to me kek.

Oh , I thought you were refusing my statement. No worries , I will make it.

Zeref saying he's have fun =/= holding back.

We have enough evidences to indicate he's holding back , for example he didn't cast that immobilization spell at the beginning of the fight itself. He didn't use time stop , nor did he teleport away and oneshot with Law. Mainly he didn't just burn the book of END to a crisp. If he wasn't holding back he would've immediately done that. Furthermore , we have Irene herself stating Zeref can end the war in an instant if he wants to , further indication of this.

 

[Seven777]

What does the statement mean to you ? " THAT wouldn't help you defeat me Natsu. If you only had the power to turn into a dragon.". What does "that" mean here ?

"You couldn't beat me, thats why we're here" Or whatever the one that sounds like that is. Zeref doesn't think Natsu can beat him, he was wrong. He was also probably wrong about being able to beat Acno, he was also definitely wrong about Mavis being able to kill him. He was definitely wrong when he said now that Natsu lost Igneel's power, he couldn't win, etc. Villains think they're tough, it's a common trope.

Not using =× useless. He used his hax on Irene , he is capable of it.

Different hax, different requirements. You keep saying hax like its an actual category of magic, its not, its a made up term fans made. Each "hax" is just a spell, and they have next to no relation to each other. One "hax" working doesn't mean all "hax" works, because "hax" doesn't exist.

There's actually more to it since he was resurrected . Any way , the basic function of Law is it oneshots people weaker in MP than you , we know it via Fairy Law.

Not really, it's merely a powerful spell.

Irene was taught higher enchantments by Zeref and you're saying Zeref can't use the enchantments he taught someone ? Cool.

I'm saying I'm not going to consider Zeref's imaginary abilities in a fight. You can have his reverse dragonification, thats it.

Oh , I thought you were refusing my statement. No worries , I will make it.

We have enough evidences to indicate he's holding back , for example he didn't cast that immobilization spell at the beginning of the fight itself. He didn't use time stop , nor did he teleport away and oneshot with Law. Mainly he didn't just burn the book of END to a crisp. If he wasn't holding back he would've immediately done that. Furthermore , we have Irene herself stating Zeref can end the war in an instant if he wants to , further indication of this.

He didn't do any of that while in his FH form either, when he was dead set determined to kill Natsu. Zeref fights the way he fights.

 

[LaGOAT]

Zeref is fodder CS wins

 

[Demon Hunter]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[atlantisreturns]

"You couldn't beat me, thats why we're here" Or whatever the one that sounds like that is. Zeref doesn't think Natsu can beat him, he was wrong. He was also probably wrong about being able to beat Acno, he was also definitely wrong about Mavis being able to kill him. He was definitely wrong when he said now that Natsu lost Igneel's power, he couldn't win, etc. Villains think they're tough, it's a common trope.

That just helps to prove my statement. Zeref says DF Natsu can't beat him , so he had to take FH. He never said that about Savage Flames Natsu.

Different hax, different requirements. You keep saying hax like its an actual category of magic, its not, its a made up term fans made. Each "hax" is just a spell, and they have next to no relation to each other. One "hax" working doesn't mean all "hax" works, because "hax" doesn't exist.

Doesn't change the fact he still enchanted Irene into a human.

Not really, it's merely a powerful spell.

Spriggan 12 were unaffected by Makarov because they had more MP than him.

I'm saying I'm not going to consider Zeref's imaginary abilities in a fight. You can have his reverse dragonification, thats it.

Even though Zeref was the one to teach Irene higher enchantments ? This sounds highly bias. Not like he would need it btw , I just brought this up to emphasize his MP.

He didn't do any of that while in his FH form either, when he was dead set determined to kill Natsu. Zeref fights the way he fights.

Doesn't mean he can't do it. And Savage Flames Emotions Natsu was just that strong , his spells wouldn't have worked anyway , and he knew it .

Look , this is getting tiresome and I still don't understand why is this even a debate , but I will leave it here :

Does Zeref have the durability or he's a glass cannon ?

Yes he does , he tanked 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu , for reference , Serena got oneshotted by a single attack of this tier and Jellal got oneshotted by an attack of far lower tier.

Does Zeref have MP required ?

Yes he does , his MP is more than DF Natsu , confirmed by him + by the fact that he enchanted Irene , who dwarfs entirety of CS' MP , into a human casually + by the fact he was the only human whom Acnologia respected + Irene specifically wanted him to use FH , she couldn't do it herself + he created Larcade , the third strongest Spriggan + Irene confirmed that he could end the war in an instant by oneshotting everyone with Law .

He's got other hax too , like enchantment , death curse , time stop , etc. However , he wouldn't need that , all he has to do is teleport a bit away and oneshot everyone with Law , that's it. Game over , this isn't a discussion.

 

[LaGOAT]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Base mode natsu bro

 

[Seven777]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Man that panel, reminds me of the good old days.

That just helps to prove my statement. Zeref says DF Natsu can't beat him , so he had to take FH. He never said that about Savage Flames Natsu.

Yeah, he just said Natsu can't beat him, repeatedly. DIdn't really work out well for him.

Doesn't change the fact he still enchanted Irene into a human.

And if I wanted to change that fact I might care, but I don't, so I don't.

Spriggan 12 were unaffected by Makarov because they had more MP than him.

So were half the Alvarez army.

Even though Zeref was the one to teach Irene higher enchantments ? This sounds highly bias. Not like he would need it btw , I just brought this up to emphasize his MP.

Yep, Hades taught Ultear time magic, doubt he's better at it than her. The student can surpass the teacher. But you're right, he doesn't need it, which is why I don't give a damn either way.

Doesn't mean he can't do it. And Savage Flames Emotions Natsu was just that strong , his spells wouldn't have worked anyway , and he knew it .

Look , this is getting tiresome and I still don't understand why is this even a debate , but I will leave it here :

Does Zeref have the durability or he's a glass cannon ?

Yes he does , he tanked 5 attacks from Igneel Natsu , for reference , Serena got oneshotted by a single attack of this tier and Jellal got oneshotted by an attack of far lower tier.

Does Zeref have MP required ?

Yes he does , his MP is more than DF Natsu , confirmed by him + by the fact that he enchanted Irene , who dwarfs entirety of CS' MP , into a human casually + by the fact he was the only human whom Acnologia respected + Irene specifically wanted him to use FH , she couldn't do it herself + he created Larcade , the third strongest Spriggan + Irene confirmed that he could end the war in an instant by oneshotting everyone with Law .

He's got other hax too , like enchantment , death curse , time stop , etc. However , he wouldn't need that , all he has to do is teleport a bit away and oneshot everyone with Law , that's it. Game over , this isn't a discussion.

True, it doesn't mean he can't do it, but if he's choosing not to, then it's probably not making a difference. Zeref fights the way he fights, against IgNatsu, against base Natsu, against DF Natsu, against Savage Natsu, he fights the same. Does he have other options? Sure, but why should I believe you when you say it's more effective, over what Zeref decides himself? And even if what you say is true, that simply makes Zeref a poor combatant for not fighting like you say. He'd be shit at fighting and I'm not going to suddenly attribute fighting skills to him that he has never shown.

As for the teleporting away and using Law thing. Meh, Cobra would anticipate it and Midnight would Reflect it for them using Crime Sorciere's combined MP(linked through Meredy). You can think up any strategy when you look at a manga from a readers point of view. Personally I don't see why Mavis doesn't oneshot Zeref, the Spriggans and the entire army combined, considering she knows a perfected version of Law and has infinite magic. But honestly I could probably think of a counter for that too, because I have a readers point of view.

One thing we do agree on though, is that this is getting tiresome.

 

[WoWfan]

for Zeref's army, that could be range of affect

 

[Jko]

Lmfao, calling Zeref fodder when CS is composed of this...

Spoiler

vs.

The guy who did this and tanked hits that would kill CS by the mere backlash of the attacks

Spoiler