Discussion Zoro and Sanji

[Pirate Queen]

There is nothing equal between the guy who wants to be WSS and the guy who wants to find rare fish.
A guy who in free time lifts weights and the guy who chases after girls.
Kaku is an effective killing machine while Jabra despite landing clean shot on Sanji with 50% of his firepower did nothing. Swords>>>>Fingernails.
Shanks and Buggy have the same relationship like Zoro and Sanji/Kaku and Jabra. Does that mean that Buggy is near equal to Shanks? Please...

Daz Bones was wearing Kairoseki in Impel Down, his powers weren't active...

Whitebeard wanted a family and ended up the strongest man in the world. Using their goals/dreams as an excuse for their supposed power levels is incorrect.

Just because Sanji wants to find rare fish as opposed to being the WSS doesnt discredit his potential.

I think you find it upsetting that one who doesnt aim to be the strongest is strong enough to be compared to Zoro... who aims for the "Top"

 

[nik87]

Whitebeard wanted a family and ended up the strongest man in the world. Using their goals/dreams as an excuse for their supposed power levels is incorrect.

To protect your family you need strength. All Blue doesn't need protection, nor anyone to be strong because of it.

Just because Sanji wants to find rare fish as opposed to being the WSS doesnt discredit his potential.

His potential to do what? On the other hand, Zoro's power level is clearly set from chapter 6. The greatest of all times.

I think you find it upsetting that one who doesnt aim to be the strongest is strong enough to be compared to Zoro... who aims for the "Top"

Exactly. Such individuals shouldn't be compared to Zoro when it comes to fighting.

 

[Pirate Queen]

To protect your family you need strength. All Blue doesn't need protection, nor anyone to be strong because of it.

His potential to do what? On the other hand, Zoro's power level is clearly set from chapter 6. The greatest of all times.

Exactly. Such individuals shouldn't be compared to Zoro when it comes to fighting.

1. To GET to All Blue you need strength

2. Zoro and Sanji, despite being normal sized humans are competing with absolute monsters. BOTH of their potential is vast or the WG wouldn't think twice about giving Sanji such a high bounty or Oda would not put up up against the monster and vets of the NW

3. Unfortunately for you their are valid points that put Sanji at around Zoro's level when it comes to fighting. Your bias stops you from understanding that and you actively seek out ways to belittle Sanji potential/opponents/growth for the sake of Zoro's ego.


Off topic. Gotta hand it to Oda for bringing out such passion in his fans that they would go to such lengths. Both Sanji and Zoro were masterfully done characters in their own right. Well done Oda

 

[nik87]

1. To GET to All Blue you need strength

Nami and Usopp will get to All Blue alongside Sanji and all other crew members... Are they all as strong as Zoro because they reached AB?

2. Zoro and Sanji, despite being normal sized humans are competing with absolute monsters. BOTH of their potential is vast or the WG wouldn't think twice about giving Sanji such a high bounty or Oda would not put up up against the monster and vets of the NW

Sanji got 150mil increase for doing nothing and due to his daddy bumping it up. His potential doesnt have anything firm to back it up unlike Zoro who will be stronger than any swordsman ever and that includes PK Roger who seems to be a swordsman, Rocks D Xebec as well. Sanji is peanuts compared to that.

3. Unfortunately for you their are valid points that put Sanji at around Zoro's level when it comes to fighting. Your bias stops you from understanding that and you actively seek out ways to belittle Sanji potential/opponents/growth for the sake of Zoro's ego.

Do tell me what puts Sanji anywhere close to Zoro's combat abilities. Leave their personalities out of it because bickering with Shanks doesnt put Buggy at Shanks' level.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Lets compare point for point.

strength... zoro
speed.... sanji
durability.... zoro
intelligence... sanji
weapons of choice... draw with swords and raidsuit

Zoro is the typical brawlerguy with swords, who when he hits someone for real, its over.

Sanji was always speedbased and an intelligent fighter.

So in theory they are quite a good matchup, but since zoro showed some impressive speedfeats himself(blitzing hody under water). The gap widens, so that Sanji must resort to trickery(invisibility) to be on his level right now.

And since it isnt guaranteed, that Sanji will keep battling with the Raidsuit, there is a possibility that he will get outclassed after wano.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Nami and Usopp will get to All Blue alongside Sanji and all other crew members... Are they all as strong as Zoro because they reached AB?


Sanji got 150mil increase for doing nothing and due to his daddy bumping it up. His potential doesnt have anything firm to back it up unlike Zoro who will be stronger than any swordsman ever and that includes PK Roger who seems to be a swordsman, Rocks D Xebec as well. Sanji is peanuts compared to that.


Do tell me what puts Sanji anywhere close to Zoro's combat abilities. Leave their personalities out of it because bickering with Shanks doesnt put Buggy at Shanks' level.

Sanji will be traveling with Zoro as he reaches Mihawk at the end of the manga. Is he as strong as Zoro because he makes the journey with him? See how ridiculous that sounds?

Putting Sanji at Zoro's level is ridiculous but putting Zoro at Rocks and Roger's level is acceptable?

Oh come on lol You don't even know how they fight. You know they have a sword. And by your own logic just because they have a swordsman doesnt make them a swordsman and even if they were you could never put Zoro at their level because he will never fight them.

Your ability to make proper comparisons drastically drops when Zoro and Sanji are involved in the convo.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 2, 2019 ---

Lets compare point for point.

strength... zoro
speed.... sanji
durability.... zoro
intelligence... sanji
weapons of choice... draw with swords and raidsuit

Zoro is the typical brawlerguy with swords, who when he hits someone for real, its over.

Sanji was always speedbased and an intelligent fighter.

So in theory they are quite a good matchup, but since zoro showed some impressive speedfeats himself(blitzing hody under water). The gap widens, so that Sanji must resort to trickery(invisibility) to be on his level right now.

And since it isnt guaranteed, that Sanji will keep battling with the Raidsuit, there is a possibility that he will get outclassed after wano.

It's possible but he will get strong without without the suit regardless of the path he chooses. I expect the Modifications Franky and Ussop make to the suit will change Sanji's mind about wielding the RS without it wailing so heavily on his heart.

 

[nik87]

Sanji will be traveling with Zoro as he reaches Mihawk at the end of the manga. Is he as strong as Zoro because he makes the journey with him? See how ridiculous that sounds?

Putting Sanji at Zoro's level is ridiculous but putting Zoro at Rocks and Roger's level is acceptable?

Oh come on lol You don't even know how they fight. You know they have a sword. And by your own logic just because they have a swordsman doesnt make them a swordsman and even if they were you could never put Zoro at their level because he will never fight them.

Your ability to make proper comparisons drastically drops when Zoro and Sanji are involved in the convo.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 2, 2019 ---

It's possible but he will get strong without without the suit regardless of the path he chooses. I expect the Modifications Franky and Ussop make to the suit will change Sanji's mind about wielding the RS without it wailing so heavily on his heart.

No strength needed to reach All Blue, all Strawhats will reach it. Strength is needed to defeat Mihawk and only Zoro will do it.

Nothing ridiculous about putting Zoro with Roger and Rocks and not just with them but above them. Zoro was pretty clear, the greatest swordsman ever.
Holding a sword doesnt make you into a swordsman but there is a good chance that both were swordsmen and if they are, they are under Zoro by default. Good luck placing Sanji anywhere near based on nothing.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

@nik87 To be fair. Kuina said the same. And then all did go downward for her. (◔‿◔)

 

[Pirate Queen]

No strength needed to reach All Blue, all Strawhats will reach it. Strength is needed to defeat Mihawk and only Zoro will do it.

Nothing ridiculous about putting Zoro with Roger and Rocks and not just with them but above them. Zoro was pretty clear, the greatest swordsman ever.
Holding a sword doesnt make you into a swordsman but there is a good chance that both were swordsmen and if they are, they are under Zoro by default. Good luck placing Sanji anywhere near based on nothing.

Your just poor at assessing Sanji and Zoro. The scenario you speak of would likely only happen if you were writing One Piece. You place way too much stock in WSS which is a goal only 2 people in the entire manga strive for. Mihawk and Zoro. No one important even acknowledges it. You get respect for wielding the title, that's it. You mention Fleet Admiral, Admiral, Yonko, Pirate King, Garp, Rocks... those names and title garner fear of challenging them.

Mihawk? Two Okama's willingly confronted him. Name a single big name who was fearful of Miahwk during the Marineford arc? Even Mr 1... MR. 1 challenged Mihawk lol and he was defeated instantly. No one fears Mihawk because his title doesn't account for the countless other fighting styles in this manga.

I personally doubt Zoro is going to be stronger than the likes of: Whitebeard, Roger, Big Mom, Kaido, Rocks, Garp, Shanks, Akainu... even as WSS.

If he is? Great! But there are going to those that argue Sanji has feats just below or equivelant to Zoro, and I'm sure there will be.

Zoro and Sanji fans will fight for them years after One Piece ends. Hell I ran across an Itachi vs Jiraiya thread the other day i could not believe how heated it had gotten, as if the Naruto manga were still going strong.

 

[M3J]

Daz Bones was injured by that inmate in Impel Down. Or was that level 4 prisoner just that strong?

We do get to see Luffy and Sanji fighting enemies who use blades a few times, including Zoro himself.

When he was in Seastone cuffs that render devil fruit users normal?

Against Zoro Sanji's done well, but Luffy was the only one fighting to kill Zoro, the others weren't fighting to kill. What other swordsmen did Luffy and Sanji fight, not counting Wanze as Sanji used knives? Prior to the timeskip before they knew Armament Haki.

There is nothing equal between the guy who wants to be WSS and the guy who wants to find rare fish.
A guy who in free time lifts weights and the guy who chases after girls.
Kaku is an effective killing machine while Jabra despite landing clean shot on Sanji with 50% of his firepower did nothing. Swords>>>>Fingernails.
Shanks and Buggy have the same relationship like Zoro and Sanji/Kaku and Jabra. Does that mean that Buggy is near equal to Shanks? Please...

Daz Bones was wearing Kairoseki in Impel Down, his powers weren't active...

One guy who wants to be the world's greatest swordsman while the other one has to be extremely strong to hang with the Pirate King and protect the women in the crew, along with supporting Luffy.

 

[Fox666]

When he was in Seastone cuffs that render devil fruit users normal?

I guess Lexusflame is spot on then. Sanji would have to learn how to break steel. Luffy could already do it (Krieg's armor, Arlong's sword).

It should be possible. At least it seems Sanji can break steel later in the series. When Sanji kicked Kuma's face, there was some sparks. He also damaged PX-4 along with the other Strawhats.

(Reading the chapter, it's intersting how Chopper damaged PX-4 using his Arm Point, while Franky or Brook attacks didn't do anything.)

Against Zoro Sanji's done well, but Luffy was the only one fighting to kill Zoro, the others weren't fighting to kill. What other swordsmen did Luffy and Sanji fight, not counting Wanze as Sanji used knives? Prior to the timeskip before they knew Armament Haki.

Luffy fought a few enemies using blades. Morgan, Buggy, Kuro, Arlong, Dorry, Blugoris. Pre-timeskip I don't recall any noteworth swordman Sanji fought (post-timeskip there would be Daifuku's genie for example).

 

[M3J]

I guess Lexusflame is spot on then. Sanji would have to learn how to break steel. Luffy could already do it (Krieg's armor, Arlong's sword).

It should be possible. At least it seems Sanji can break steel later in the series. When Sanji kicked Kuma's face, there was some sparks. He also damaged PX-4 along with the other Strawhats.

(Reading the chapter, it's intersting how Chopper damaged PX-4 using his Arm Point, while Franky or Brook attacks didn't do anything.)


Luffy fought a few enemies using blades. Morgan, Buggy, Kuro, Arlong, Dorry, Blugoris. Pre-timeskip I don't recall any noteworth swordman Sanji fought (post-timeskip there would be Daifuku's genie for example).

But we're talking about Daz's ability to turn his body parts into swords, not just metal. Luffy would have gotten his hands sliced trying to deal damage, as would have Sanji.

None of them except for maybe Dorry were swordsmen or used swords primarily. Morgan had an axe for a hand, Arlong didn't use his sword until the end, and Kuro had claws.

 

[Pirate Queen]

But we're talking about Daz's ability to turn his body parts into swords, not just metal. Luffy would have gotten his hands sliced trying to deal damage, as would have Sanji.

None of them except for maybe Dorry were swordsmen or used swords primarily. Morgan had an axe for a hand, Arlong didn't use his sword until the end, and Kuro had claws.

If we are to believe Zoro awoke haki during his battle with Mr. 1, it stands to reason Sanji and Luffy could have as well. Luffy was shown to block blade based attacks with his sandals and Sanji does it with his shoes. They wouldn't escape unharmed but they could definitely pull off a win

 

[Fox666]

But we're talking about Daz's ability to turn his body parts into swords, not just metal. Luffy would have gotten his hands sliced trying to deal damage, as would have Sanji.

But it's One Piece.

In real life, if you punch a knife you hurt your hand. The more force you apply, the more you get hurt.

But in One Piece, with enough force you break the knife.

Example is Luffy punching Crocodile's Sables

Spoiler

 

[nik87]

Your just poor at assessing Sanji and Zoro. The scenario you speak of would likely only happen if you were writing One Piece. You place way too much stock in WSS which is a goal only 2 people in the entire manga strive for. Mihawk and Zoro. No one important even acknowledges it. You get respect for wielding the title, that's it. You mention Fleet Admiral, Admiral, Yonko, Pirate King, Garp, Rocks... those names and title garner fear of challenging them.

Mihawk? Two Okama's willingly confronted him. Name a single big name who was fearful of Miahwk during the Marineford arc? Even Mr 1... MR. 1 challenged Mihawk lol and he was defeated instantly. No one fears Mihawk because his title doesn't account for the countless other fighting styles in this manga.

I personally doubt Zoro is going to be stronger than the likes of: Whitebeard, Roger, Big Mom, Kaido, Rocks, Garp, Shanks, Akainu... even as WSS.

If he is? Great! But there are going to those that argue Sanji has feats just below or equivelant to Zoro, and I'm sure there will be.

Zoro and Sanji fans will fight for them years after One Piece ends. Hell I ran across an Itachi vs Jiraiya thread the other day i could not believe how heated it had gotten, as if the Naruto manga were still going strong.

Well, the WSS... You say it's nothing but somehow the only two blades that ever became Kokutos somehow were made that way only by the two individuals who desired to be exactly the WSS and the third blade about to be forged into Kokuto will again come from the individual who desires to be WSS and will become one. Kokuto by itself, is perhaps the top CoA feat in the verse, it is rarer than Conqueror's Haki and Zoro will have it, maybe 3 of them.

The WSS is not feared because of his personality, a lone wolf, who doesnt go all out when hunting a rabbit, like he said himself. Also, didnt some fodder pirates attack Kizaru in Sabaody? That's how much they feared him... Mr1 didnt challenge Mihawk, he was acting on Crocodile's orders to protect Luffy. There are only 3 World's Strongest titles, two wielders of them are absolute monsters and you think the third one is not?

Countless other fighting styles dont matter if Oda qualifies you as a swordsman which automatically puts you below Mihawk, one character qualified as a swordsman is an Admiral referred to as an absolute beast by Doflamingo - Fujitora, the blind swordsman. Rocks and Roger didnt live during Mihawk's prime so they could possibly be above him but considering they lack the Kokuto it is unlikely. The right hand of Roger - Rayleigh, falls under Mihawk, the Yonko Shanks falls under Mihawk. WSS obviously is no joke and Zoro will be stronger than any of them.

Yes, even now it is beyond me what Sanji's feats are equal to Zoro's and I dont see any argument for those claims except their opponents had similar Doriki and they are bickering at each other. Zoro's combat capabilities are miles ahead of Sanji, whatever the stat, you name it, his feats are even dwarfing Luffy's.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, the WSS... You say it's nothing but somehow the only two blades that ever became Kokutos somehow were made that way only by the two individuals who desired to be exactly the WSS and the third blade about to be forged into Kokuto will again come from the individual who desires to be WSS and will become one. Kokuto by itself, is perhaps the top CoA feat in the verse, it is rarer than Conqueror's Haki and Zoro will have it, maybe 3 of them.

The WSS is not feared because of his personality, a lone wolf, who doesnt go all out when hunting a rabbit, like he said himself. Also, didnt some fodder pirates attack Kizaru in Sabaody? That's how much they feared him... Mr1 didnt challenge Mihawk, he was acting on Crocodile's orders to protect Luffy. There are only 3 World's Strongest titles, two wielders of them are absolute monsters and you think the third one is not?

Countless other fighting styles dont matter if Oda qualifies you as a swordsman which automatically puts you below Mihawk, one character qualified as a swordsman is an Admiral referred to as an absolute beast by Doflamingo - Fujitora, the blind swordsman. Rocks and Roger didnt live during Mihawk's prime so they could possibly be above him but considering they lack the Kokuto it is unlikely. The right hand of Roger - Rayleigh, falls under Mihawk, the Yonko Shanks falls under Mihawk. WSS obviously is no joke and Zoro will be stronger than any of them.

Yes, even now it is beyond me what Sanji's feats are equal to Zoro's and I dont see any argument for those claims except their opponents had similar Doriki and they are bickering at each other. Zoro's combat capabilities are miles ahead of Sanji, whatever the stat, you name it, his feats are even dwarfing Luffy's.

The Kouto is great! It's an amazing achievement, but it's nothing more than an achievement. What gave you the indication that having a black blade means your stronger than everyone? That has never been stated. Achieving a black blade isn't anything special for anyone not a swordsman. Name a single time anyone has feared a black blade? Not once.

It's a shame I have to tell you so bluntly because it's obvious that you are under the preconceived notion that everyone wielding a blade aspires to get a Kouto, but it hasn't been mentioned a single time in 900+ chapters outside of Mihawk and Zoro. No one comments on it. It didn't turn heads during the war. Outside of the 2 people that are or aspire to be the best... a Kouto is not important. Sorry to have to burst your bubble.

As for Zoro's feats dwarfing Luffy? The hell? I just told Moe that you are not as head canon driven as him and you prove me wrong. Zoro has no feats that even come close to Luffy at this point. Hasn't fought a single big shot and is overall fearless compared to Luffy. That's just foolishness and your obviously doing it to distract from the fact that Sanji and Zoro are damn near equal.

 

[nik87]

The Kouto is great! It's an amazing achievement, but it's nothing more than an achievement. What gave you the indication that having a black blade means your stronger than everyone? That has never been stated. Achieving a black blade isn't anything special for anyone not a swordsman. Name a single time anyone has feared a black blade? Not once.

It's a shame I have to tell you so bluntly because it's obvious that you are under the preconceived notion that everyone wielding a blade aspires to get a Kouto, but it hasn't been mentioned a single time in 900+ chapters outside of Mihawk and Zoro. No one comments on it. It didn't turn heads during the war. Outside of the 2 people that are or aspire to be the best... a Kouto is not important. Sorry to have to burst your bubble.

As for Zoro's feats dwarfing Luffy? The hell? I just told Moe that you are not as head canon driven as him and you prove me wrong. Zoro has no feats that even come close to Luffy at this point. Hasn't fought a single big shot and is overall fearless compared to Luffy. That's just foolishness and your obviously doing it to distract from the fact that Sanji and Zoro are damn near equal.

Kokuto, as I said, is rarer than CoC, 1 in a million ability so it obviously is something impressive considering there is only 1 person alive capable of it.
I never said it means being stronger than everyone, I said it is perhaps the best CoA feat and CoA is core of swordsmanship and even of other combat styles.
You cant achieve a black blade if you arent swordsman in the first place so that sentence makes no sense at all. I never said that it is a feared ability, no top tier fears another top tier, no matter what they have. Crocodile doesnt fear the strongest man in the world who has CoC and goes after his head instantly. The fear doesnt exist among the power-hungry.

Nobody aspires to forge a Kokuto, it is a proof of unparalleled CoA that comes along to great individuals, the WSS of two different eras. Two in a Millenium.
There is nothing to burst here. Having a black blade doesnt mean the wielder will trash everyone else. I still consider Kaido the strongest individual.

Well, if you can find a casual move from Luffy that splits a mountain like Zoro splits Pica golem with casual nameless attack, we can talk abt Luffy dwarfing Zoro. In case you didnt realize, Zoro has faced a big shot for 2 years during his training and that big shot is stronger than any opponent Luffy has defeated.
There is nothing equal between Sanji and Zoro when even Luffy is being dwarfed by Zoro's feats.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Kokuto, as I said, is rarer than CoC, 1 in a million ability so it obviously is something impressive considering there is only 1 person alive capable of it.
I never said it means being stronger than everyone, I said it is perhaps the best CoA feat and CoA is core of swordsmanship and even of other combat styles.
You cant achieve a black blade if you arent swordsman in the first place so that sentence makes no sense at all. I never said that it is a feared ability, no top tier fears another top tier, no matter what they have. Crocodile doesnt fear the strongest man in the world who has CoC and goes after his head instantly. The fear doesnt exist among the power-hungry.

Nobody aspires to forge a Kokuto, it is a proof of unparalleled CoA that comes along to great individuals, the WSS of two different eras. Two in a Millenium.
There is nothing to burst here. Having a black blade doesnt mean the wielder will trash everyone else. I still consider Kaido the strongest individual.

Well, if you can find a casual move from Luffy that splits a mountain like Zoro splits Pica golem with casual nameless attack, we can talk abt Luffy dwarfing Zoro. In case you didnt realize, Zoro has faced a big shot for 2 years during his training and that big shot is stronger than any opponent Luffy has defeated.
There is nothing equal between Sanji and Zoro when even Luffy is being dwarfed by Zoro's feats.

Repeating nonsense doesnt make it true. Though if you repeat it enough you can certainly make yourself believe it. There is no quote that states getting a Kouto means you have "unparalleled" CoA. Not a single quote.

No one besides a few individuals care about Kouto. Actually, only Zoro is curious about Kouto's. It's not a significant thing for Top Tiers or we would hear about it far more than we have. It doesn't seem odd to you that no top tiers have mentioned it having any significance? It only matters to those who live their lives and are willing to die by the sword... Ryuma, Zoro, Mihawk. It is a swordsma accomplishment which is probably why we don't see people with black weapons other than swords.

 

[nik87]

No one besides a few individuals care about Kouto. Actually, only Zoro is curious about Kouto's. It's not a significant thing for Top Tiers or we would hear about it far more than we have. It doesn't seem odd to you that no top tiers have mentioned it having any significance? It only matters to those who live their lives and are willing to die by the sword... Ryuma, Zoro, Mihawk. It is a swordsma accomplishment which is probably why we don't see people with black weapons other than swords.

Which top tiers would mention it? All those top tiers who arent swordsmen or top tier swordsmen we never saw fighting? Kokuto will be explained further as the time goes as it clearly is something almost unique and special.
Kokuto isnt easily achievable even for those who live by the sword - Oden, Shanks, Rayleigh, Vista. It is a trait of only the greatest among them.
Unparalleled CoA is a pretty good guess if you look what CoA does(Hardening) and what a Kokuto provides, that we know so far.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Which top tiers would mention it? All those top tiers who arent swordsmen or top tier swordsmen we never saw fighting? Kokuto will be explained further as the time goes as it clearly is something almost unique and special.
Kokuto isnt easily achievable even for those who live by the sword - Oden, Shanks, Rayleigh, Vista. It is a trait of only the greatest among them.
Unparalleled CoA is a pretty good guess if you look what CoA does(Hardening) and what a Kokuto provides, that we know so far.

So your making stuff up. Okay. Good to know. So unparalleled CoA needed to forge a black blade is your headcannon. That's already established.

I never said it wasnt unique or special. It is! And by the end of One Piece I want to see all 3 of Zoro's blades be black. That's not what is being discussed here.

If your going to ASSUME Zoro is going to have the greatest CoA of all time by EoS then expect Sanji fans to argue that Sanji will have the greatest CoO of all time.

We just don't throw out expectations of characters and use them as facts. Your entire basis of Zoro being greater than everyone is 3 fold.

1. He split a mountain sized rock
2. At the end of Wano he will be OP
3. EoS he is going to be the greatest and strongest of all time

2 of those aren't fans, but your Hope's for him and 1 is Zoro cutting through rock which is impressive for someone of Zoro's level. But not grounds to put him above someone who defeated 2 Yonko Commanders and now has FS and ACoA(internal damage)