Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[Shasha23]

No, it doesn't. Oda has said he does not know how Shanks fight.

That was before information regarding him being DF less was released, as of now, new information by Oda trumps whatever he said previously.
Meaning Shanks has no DF power and is a swordsman and is WEAKER than Mihawk who hopes Zoro can surpass Shanks so he can be his new rival.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2019 ---

He had more Advance Haki than Luffy, but the base strength of his haki was weaker than Luffy's.

Think of Luffy Clashing with Katakuri.

All of Amazon lily had more Advanced Haki than Luffy.

Prove his haki is weaker when Oda stated that Zoro is a master of COA and Sanji master COO while Luffy masters COC.
This is even proven by the fact Sanji could dodge Katakuri while Luffy couldnt, and Zoro was capable of using advanced forms of COA while Luffy just learned them now.

You say this and that but not once has Zoro's COA been defeated while Luffy has and not just once.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

@Rmstorm @nik87

Well. Hmm. I thought about it for a second and... You must be correct. As Hyo has explained it, swordsmen are a bit special (more advanced) in how the use haki...

 

[kcd]

Im taking the same casual Kaido who fought Luffy here, the same who didnt bother to dodge, defend or block!
And as previously established, Zoro's haki is stronger than Luffy's so i don't see a reason why he couldn't cut him.

What was established was that Zoro can flow his haki into his sword. There's no proof the haki itself is stronger, it just means he can flow it out.

Besides, you're aware it's easier to 'break' something hard than 'cut' it, right?

 

[Brandish μ]

Lexuaflame is referring to the current Zoro with Shunsui. Not if Shunsui the sword itself is capable of dealing the damage. Which is why this thread is almost pointless. Especially if he wants us to refrain from mentioning Enma.

Because the answer is an obvious no.
Zoro, cannot do what Luffy could not which is hurt Kaido.

I don't really disagree there, mainly because I'm not really across the haki technique.

Like, Luffy had no chance because he didn't have the haki skills at the time. Now, he might stand a chance. Where I'm unsure is how haki with swords work. If Shusui doesn't dish out much of that haki technique that Luffy is training for, then the answer is definitely no. And I generally agree it's obvious plot-wise Zoro cannot damage Kaido without Enma atm (whereas I 100% believe Mihawk can cut Kaido).

Another off-topic-ish question is whether current Zoro with Enma can hurt Kaido. I'd like to think Zoro needs to at least get some match practice before entertaining the idea. I mean, he's gotten a power up without even being pushed extremely since the TS (which I get, but still).

 

[Shasha23]

What was established was that Zoro can flow his haki into his sword. There's no proof the haki itself is stronger, it just means he can flow it out.

Besides, you're aware it's easier to 'break' something hard than 'cut' it, right?

There is no proof his haki is weaker since thats what all of you are implying, i will go with the fact that he has more mastery of haki therefor his haki is stronger!
Real world physics dont apply in this story, you know that right?

 

[kcd]

There is no proof his haki is weaker since thats what all of you are implying, i will go with the fact that he has more mastery of haki therefor his haki is stronger!
Real world physics dont apply in this story, you know that right?

It doesn't work that way actually. I'm sure you're also aware that the Amazon Lily women also have more mastery of haki as well. Does this then prove theirs is also harder than Luffy's?

Absolutely not. It just means they know how to flow it into their arrows.

At the end of the day, Zoro's haki needs to be at least as strong as Kaido's for him to cut him with Shusui. You simply can't cut what is harder than you. You can break what is harder, mind you, but you simply can't cut it. Use diamond as an example and you will see what I'm talking about.

Real life physics?! It worked when Luffy clashed with Katakuri. Luffy was the one in pain when they clashed fists. The stronger haki won till Luffy decided to go brute (g4)

 

[Shasha23]

It doesn't work that way actually. I'm sure you're also aware that the Amazon Lily women also have more mastery of haki as well. Does this then prove theirs is also harder than Luffy's?

Absolutely not. It just means they know how to flow it into their arrows.

At the end of the day, Zoro's haki needs to be at least as strong as Kaido's for him to cut him with Shusui. You simply can't cut what is harder than you. You can break what is harder, mind you, but you simply can't cut it. Use diamond as an example and you will see what I'm talking about.

What does the warriors from AL have to do with Luffy and Zoro................wtf, comparing fodder to Zoro wow

They are fodder who cares

Kaido didnt block Luffy with haki so why are you assuming he will with Zoro, him blocking Zoro is an admission that Zoro can cut him!

Real life physics?! It worked when Luffy clashed with Katakuri. Luffy was the one in pain when they clashed fists. The stronger haki won till Luffy decided to go brute (g4)

So people from your country use haki..........

 

[kcd]

What does the warriors from AL have to do with Luffy and Zoro................wtf, comparing fodder to Zoro wow

They are fodder who cares

Kaido didnt block Luffy with haki so why are you assuming he will with Zoro, him blocking Zoro is an admission that Zoro can cut him!



So people from your country use haki..........

Exactly my point. Knowing the almighty flow haki doesn't necessarily mean your haki is stronger.
The fact even fodders can do it proves my point.

So people from your country use haki..........

Good job!

It was obvious I was talking about hardness. Clash of haki is akin to clash of hardness. The weaker one can't cut the harder one both in the manga and in real life.

 

[Shasha23]

Exactly my point. Knowing the almighty flow haki doesn't necessarily mean your haki is stronger.
The fact even fodders can do it proves my point.

So just because some fodder knew flow means Luffy has stronger COA thn Zoro who knows flow..............hahahahahahahahaha

Good job!

It was obvious I was talking about hardness. Clash of haki is akin to clash of hardness. The weaker one can't cut the harder one both in the manga and in real life.

Did Kaido clash haki with Luffy or not

 

[kcd]

So just because some fodder knew flow means Luffy has stronger COA thn Zoro who knows flow..............hahahahahahahahaha



Did Kaido clash haki with Luffy or not

You're the one claiming Zoro can cut Kaido because he has stronger haki than Luffy. Knowing the flow haki doesn't necessarily mean the haki is automatically stronger. That isthe point I'm making.

Did Kaido clash haki with Luffy or not

One thing we know is that the scales or whatever that is making Kaido invincible is very strong. It is so hard that even after Luffy multiplied his strength three times (by going g4), he couldn't break it.

Is that thing haki? I don't know but, it is very hard. Zoro's haki would have to be harder than it before it can cut it.

If Zoro cuts it as he is now, then you are right, his haki is more than three times stronger than Luff's. Though, I highly doubt this.
Whatever you decide on, it's left for you.

 

[Shasha23]

You're the one claiming Zoro can cut Kaido because he has stronger haki than Luffy. Knowing the flow haki doesn't necessarily mean the haki is automatically stronger. That isthe point I'm making.

Both of them have always been on the same level, the only logical step to take is if one has a better mastery of an ability means his ability is stronger than the other.

One thing we know is that the scales or whatever that is making Kaido invincible is very strong. It is so hard that even after Luffy multiplied his strength three times (by going g4), he couldn't break it.

Is that thing haki? I don't know but, it is very hard. Zoro's haki would have to be harder than it before it can cut it.

If Zoro cuts it as he is now, then you are right, his haki is more than three times stronger than Luff's. Though, I highly doubt this.
Whatever you decide on, it's left for you.

He couldnt damage Kaido because his attacks arent as critical is Zoro's and his haki is weaker thats why he couldnt damage him, but since Zoro knows flow he would have been able to cut Kaido.

Kaido didnt bother to block Luffy because his haki wasnt good enough to damage him, the same thing cant be said about Zoro who knows flow

Its not about multipliers here, even if Luffy's haki rating was a 100 and Zoro was an 80, the fact is Zoro can use all the 80 and Luffy could only use 10, meaning Zoro's haki is stronger because he has mastered it unlike Luffy who hasnt learn how to use it properly.

 

[jaymizzo]

Both of them have always been on the same level, the only logical step to take is if one has a better mastery of an ability means his ability is stronger than the other.

No. They. Have. Not.

He couldnt damage Kaido because his attacks arent as critical is Zoro's and his haki is weaker thats why he couldnt damage him, but since Zoro knows flow he would have been able to cut Kaido.

Kaido didnt bother to block Luffy because his haki wasnt good enough to damage him, the same thing cant be said about Zoro who knows flow

Same as Nami's thunderbolt. It is yet to be tested on Kaido but we know it does damage. She was able to somewhat harm BM afterall.

Luffy has a more advanced form of CoA, does that mean his Haki is stronger than Zoro?

Its not about multipliers here, even if Luffy's haki rating was a 100 and Zoro was an 80, the fact is Zoro can use all the 80 and Luffy could only use 10, meaning Zoro's haki is stronger because he has mastered it unlike Luffy who hasnt learn how to use it properly.

This makes no sense.
So Kcd points out that there are characters who you call fodder, who knew the flow and barrier haki, but you dismiss that because it doesn't favour your argument towards Zoro.

Spoiler: Whoa

Laugh out loud

 

[kcd]

The fact is Zoro can use all the 80 and Luffy could only use 10, meaning Zoro's haki is stronger because he has mastered it unlike Luffy who hasnt learn how to use it properly.

On a final note, I'll say that in cutting, what counts is hardness, not quantity as you're implying.

If I use a small steel blade to cut diamond, it won't cut. If I use a bigger still blade, it still won't cut because steel is generally weaker than diamond in terms of hardness.

The quantity of haki here doesn't matter if the underlying strength of Zoro's haki is weaker.
It was for this reason they said only diamond can cut diamond, because they are of similar hardness.
Again, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Shasha23]

No. They. Have. Not.

Since when?

Same as Nami's thunderbolt. It is yet to be tested on Kaido but we know it does damage. She was able to somewhat harm BM afterall.

Luffy has a more advanced form of CoA, does that mean his Haki is stronger than Zoro?

Dont know why your bringing up Nami
Currently Luffy's haki is above and stronger than Zoro's thats for sure

This makes no sense.
So Kcd points out that there are characters who you call fodder, who knew the flow and barrier haki, but you dismiss that because it doesn't favour your argument towards Zoro.

Spoiler: Whoa

Laugh out loud

Comparing feats of a fodder to Zoro is laughable and i even made a point as to why it is!

On a final note, I'll say that in cutting, what counts is hardness, not quantity as you're implying.

If I use a small steel blade to cut diamond, it won't cut. If I use a bigger still blade, it still won't cut because steel is generally weaker than diamond in terms of hardness.

The quantity of haki here doesn't matter if the underlying strength of Zoro's haki is weaker.
It was for this reason they said only diamond can cut diamond, because they are of similar hardness.
Again, we'll have to wait and see. Kicking the ball on this one

Real world physics dont apply in the One Piece universe!

Its not about how much haki you have is about how masterful you can use it, Luffy couldnt use it properly unlike Zoro but now he can and he haas even learned a more advance ability than Zoro

 

[XXGenesis]

@Shasha23
Mastery or higher skill doesn't always equate to stronger force with a skill. You are thinking about things in absolutes too much.

Haki & Ryou are the same thing.
Haki is suppose to be what the Boa Sisters, Rayleigh ex W/ Elepahnt, admirals vs shockwave & Sentomaru showed. Creating a barrier around yourself capable of offence & defence.

Defense bounces things off your shield, or creates a projected barrier. Offence gives way to physical attacks that can penetrate high defenses. Ex Zoro cutting steel, Sentomaru attacking luffy, Gramps vs Lama.

Then there's the hardening part if haki which is understood.

Only Advanced flow technique is what Luffy & Rayleigh did to the collars. Which is destroy it from the inside.

So, let's say Zoro did have more skill with flow Haki over Luffy..What's the point. Its not at a level capable of injuring opponents like a Yonkou. Nor can Zoro overall with all his abilities display top commander lv. The gap in skill plus power is major. I'm a fanboy of Zoro too. But nothing from the Story inferences or suggest Zoro could have defeated Donflamingo or any other opponent his captain has. I know his potential to is high, and they wouldn't be horrible fights. But No dude. Just no.

He doesn't have the skills with Shunsui to do it. Which is why he got a sword that can.

As me if Zoro this moment used Emma on Kaidou um guessing 4 swings max lml idk probably less but um the damage wouldn't be life threatening or heavy. But it would hurt imo

 

[Shasha23]

@XXGenesis

Yes and having a high mastery of something shouldnt be disregarded, i have made my point as to why Zoro had better CoA than Luffy and why Sanji had better CoO than Luffy, and none of you have said anything to disprove this fact!

We all know people of Wano refer to haki(CoA) as ryou so i dont get your point

Being able to release haki outwards from your body is an advanced version of haki not just the internal damage move Luffy has learned!

How do you know this, the reason Luffy said he couldnt injure Kaido was because his haki wasnt good enough thats why he improved it, but Zoro's haki was already good enough so why cant you accept that fact? Luffy had to train to get to the mastery of where Zoro is, just so he can damage Kaido so i dont get your beef with the fact Zoro's haki was good enough to damage Kaido from the beginning.

No he gave back Shusui because Hiyori begged him to, not because he wanted a Kaido slaying sword!!!!!!!!ffs

Dont care for your fanboying, i really dont like Zoro that much to begin with, since he has the personality of a dead horse, its just annoying when people disregard peoples feats because they dont like members of the crew being better at things than their boi Luffy.
You were all crying and saying not this no that when Sanji showed he was better at CoO than Luffy and you lot didnt want to give him any credit now your doing the same to Zoro because he had better CoA than Luffy

 

[nik87]

People assume Zoro cant cut Kaido because Kaido's Haki is stronger than Zoro's Haki.
However, when has Kaido's Haki ever been mentioned? Not even once. It is about Kaido's scales, not about Kaido's Haki.
Enma is just a piece of metal, it doesnt allow Zoro to do anything that he wasnt able to do already.

 

[nik87]

@Rmstorm @nik87
Well. Hmm. I thought about it for a second and... You must be correct. As Hyo has explained it, swordsmen are a bit special (more advanced) in how the use haki...

The problem occurs if we look at it through Luffy's eyes and expect the same application on swordsmen which is basically impossible.
Look at it as two different things.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

@Shasha23
Mastery or higher skill doesn't always equate to stronger force with a skill. You are thinking about things in absolutes too much.

Haki & Ryou are the same thing.
Haki is suppose to be what the Boa Sisters, Rayleigh ex W/ Elepahnt, admirals vs shockwave & Sentomaru showed. Creating a barrier around yourself capable of offence & defence.

Defense bounces things off your shield, or creates a projected barrier. Offence gives way to physical attacks that can penetrate high defenses. Ex Zoro cutting steel, Sentomaru attacking luffy, Gramps vs Lama.

Then there's the hardening part if haki which is understood.

Only Advanced flow technique is what Luffy & Rayleigh did to the collars. Which is destroy it from the inside.

So, let's say Zoro did have more skill with flow Haki over Luffy..What's the point. Its not at a level capable of injuring opponents like a Yonkou. Nor can Zoro overall with all his abilities display top commander lv. The gap in skill plus power is major. I'm a fanboy of Zoro too. But nothing from the Story inferences or suggest Zoro could have defeated Donflamingo or any other opponent his captain has. I know his potential to is high, and they wouldn't be horrible fights. But No dude. Just no.

He doesn't have the skills with Shunsui to do it. Which is why he got a sword that can.

As me if Zoro this moment used Emma on Kaidou um guessing 4 swings max lml idk probably less but um the damage wouldn't be life threatening or heavy. But it would hurt imo

I gotta give props to this post. Very well said. But what the fuck is up with you guys spelling it Shunsui when it is Shusui? I bet Ryuma's corpse is rolling around in the florian triangle dying to come back as a draugr to haunt you guys.

But honestly, I thought it is pretty easy to see the difference in Haki. A lot of times it is the art that makes it all make sense but I am lazy and is using a smartphone right now so I am not gonna bother posting pics... the pic I have in mind is from the last chapter where Luffy made the tree explode OUT from the inside while NOT in G4 mode. I think this is significant because in G4 it is acknoledged he is using too much brute strength (as Doflamingo described it back in dressrosa after laughing his ass off at bounceman and then subsequently getting wooped) so he needed to refine his skills and be able to make shit explode from the inside while not in G4 form. Because G4 hits from the outside, what Luffy needs to learn is blowing shit up from the inside of other "stuff" lol.

So comparing Luffy's haki rating at 100 and saying he can only use 10 percent while Zoro's rating is 80 and he uses all 80 really doesn't make sense to me. It make sense on the outside but if you read in between the numbers you can surmise a few things.

1. Kuja tribe. They can flow their Haki into their arrows and pierce and do good damage to trees. Now my memory isn't as great as what it should be but I don't ever remember Luffy ever throwing a haki infused rock or chair or whatever. Just his own body. Seems like he isn't using CoA to its fullest by not infusing Haki into items for projectile attacks.

2. Zoro's haki rating. First off, if Zoro's rating is at 80 and he uses 100% of that he still isn't as powerful as Luffy's supposed 10 percent. And 10 percent seems quite small...I'd bump it to at least 60 lol. I mean Luffy is exploding shit from the inside, has decent CoC, and he can fly because of Haki. It's actually pretty fucked up that he can fly. I LoLed so hard back in Dressrosa seeing that shit like goddamn Oda you fucking serious? Hahahahaha.

3. Fighting style. Ultimately, the reason why Luffy doesn't imbue objects with Haki for offence is due to his fighting style. He uses mainly himself and nothing else to fight. Even with the Nidai Kitetsu LOL. You give Luffy an All Murican made AK and this guy will hold the AK in his hands and punch you with that closed fist instead of using the gun. Luffy is just not that type of fighter. Remember after the time skip when he talks about Rayleigh teaching him to redirect cannonballs with better precision? 0 evidence that he put any Haki into those redirected hits even thought it will cause more damage to his enemy. This has been consistent in the story.

4. Haki burn. So we know people have a reservoir of Haki. Law said it, and so did Luffy himself. He needed time to recoup his Haki vs Doffy and Katakuri. The whole full body or much of the body haki thing has always resonated with me. It makes me think, well wouldn't this make you burnout more easily? Not if you have a good reservoir. And Luffy engages in these prolonged fights while burning a ton of Haki like Law said. Zoro doesn't clad that much of himself in Haki. Rather his style makes him coat his arms and swords instead in Haki. This may explain why Hawkin's nails was able to get Zoro so easily. Zoro may not have as big a pool of Haki as Luffy and he may need it later so he just tanked the nails. In my opinion, Zoro is a real badass. And while nails will hurt, he is taking it like a man for his boss (See this doesn't matter at all to me because Zoro and Luffy has such bullshit healing capabilities it's...bullshit lol). This situation is similar to the time when he took Luffy's suffering back on thriller bark. But again, this goes back to fighting styles. Zoro likes to focus his Haki in his blades and deliver acute and devastating blows and Luffy clads himself because he uses himself to fight but Luffy because of using Haki like that burns it up quicker. So we can infer that Luffy has a bigger reservoir and of course the person with the biggest reservoir to me is Doflamingo (bird cage hax anyone?) but he still wasn't as strong as Luffy even with more Haki.

So there really is no argument right now that Zoro's Haki is superior to Luffy's at the moment. Luffy has more Haki and uses advanced forms of it. Zoro has never displayed any type of CoC no matter how much we speculated and if he did have it it would probably have shown by now. This is why Zoro cannot cut Kaido right now with any blade.

People assume Zoro cant cut Kaido because Kaido's Haki is stronger than Zoro's Haki.
However, when has Kaido's Haki ever been mentioned? Not even once. It is about Kaido's scales, not about Kaido's Haki.
Enma is just a piece of metal, it doesnt allow Zoro to do anything that he wasnt able to do already.

Yo I been saying this since forever. The sword is a goddamn TOOL. Zoro is very good at said tools. Enma is like a different hammer and once Zoro gets used to this new hammer he will put in nails just as well as if he used his other hammers.

 

[XXGenesis]

@XXGenesis

Yes and having a high mastery of something shouldnt be disregarded, i have made my point as to why Zoro had better CoA than Luffy and why Sanji had better CoO than Luffy, and none of you have said anything to disprove this fact!

We all know people of Wano refer to haki(CoA) as ryou so i dont get your point

Being able to release haki outwards from your body is an advanced version of haki not just the internal damage move Luffy has learned!

How do you know this, the reason Luffy said he couldnt injure Kaido was because his haki wasnt good enough thats why he improved it, but Zoro's haki was already good enough so why cant you accept that fact? Luffy had to train to get to the mastery of where Zoro is, just so he can damage Kaido so i dont get your beef with the fact Zoro's haki was good enough to damage Kaido from the beginning.

No he gave back Shusui because Hiyori begged him to, not because he wanted a Kaido slaying sword!!!!!!!!ffs

Dont care for your fanboying, i really dont like Zoro that much to begin with, since he has the personality of a dead horse, its just annoying when people disregard peoples feats because they dont like members of the crew being better at things than their boi Luffy.
You were all crying and saying not this no that when Sanji showed he was better at CoO than Luffy and you lot didnt want to give him any credit now your doing the same to Zoro because he had better CoA than Luffy

Sanji has better CoO than Luffy...wrong [nothing to do with this thread at all]

Zoro has better CoA than Luffy...wrong

You sound overly passionate...

Flow of haki is not ADVANCED. Only destroying things from the inside is advanced.

There's nothing to disprove here lolz.

To top it off, it's still the Silliest thing and lack if conprehension if somehow Zoro knowing flow could cut Kaido. Lmao like what the hell is there not to understand , just because he has the skill, he still doesn't posses the power lmao!!! Yet this makes stronger than Luffy??? Like what?????

People assume Zoro cant cut Kaido because Kaido's Haki is stronger than Zoro's Haki.
However, when has Kaido's Haki ever been mentioned? Not even once. It is about Kaido's scales, not about Kaido's Haki.
Enma is just a piece of metal, it doesnt allow Zoro to do anything that he wasnt able to do already.

Except your wrong about that. Zoro cannot cut a whole cliff off with the flick of his wrist. Only with Enma can he preform such a feat effortlessly, due to the swords abilities. Yes Zoro can cut the cliff but with a different sword it'll take much more effort..Enma is juss special.