Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[nik87]

Shower us with greatness, Oda-sama.

 

[jaymizzo]

The SH are fighting 2 Yonkous.

This is the endgame.

We still have a lot to cover: Elbaf, WG (Im sama, Gorosei and Admirals), BB and Shanks, Revolutionaries and Vegapunk.

The most exciting thing about this arc is getting to see how far the monster trio have come. Luffy will inevitably fight one of the Yonko and the new monster trio (Zoro, Jinbei and Sanji) will inevitably fight the YCs. By the end of this arc, the SH crew is going to be quite formidable.

Just like Kaido has the calamities and BM has her Sweet commanders, Luffy has his monster trio and they are going to live up to that name. Picturing the news at the end of the arc is hyyype! Can't wait for Zoro to live up to his unooficial yet obvious title of being 1st mate to the 5th Emperor.

 

[Gomu Gomu no Tako]

Because 4th grade Sandai Kitetsu has not been inferior to Shusui in any way so far. The degree of hardness in which they differ has never mattered before, I am not saying it may not matter against Kaido who is famous for breaking executioner weapons...
Because Mihawk said that any blade can become a black blade and even those fodder swords back then, if they were Kokutos, wouldnt have not broken against Mihawk himself.
We can bet that Enma will go back in line just like Shusui did and it wont be any different than other two blades.

sandai kitetsu i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶3̶̶r̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶g̶̶r̶̶a̶̶d̶̶e̶ and one of the meito. Agree on the rest. It's shows the quality of a swordsman if he can wield different swords. Zoro is capable of that.
I didn't vote for now, because i want him to fight swordsman (king, kyoshiro) but assume you guys are right and he might challenge kaido as well.

 

[Shasha23]

Sandait Kitetsu is 3rd grade and one of the meito. Agree on the rest. It's shows the quality of a swordsman if he can wield different swords. Zoro is capable of that.
I didn't vote for now, because i want him to fight swordsman (king, kyoshiro) but assume you guys are right and he might challenge kaido as well.

Sandia Kitetsu is a named sword not a ranked sword, in terms of hierarchy its a 4th graded blade

 

[kkck]

I'd say its fairly clear that yes, this is what the series is going for at the time. So the interesting bit will be what or how exactly the sword will end up helping to accomplish this. The sword seems to largely be a basis for a presumably substantial haki powerup for zoro. here is my thery:

Back at alabasta we saw that zoro learned how to cut metal and by extension how to cut what he wanted to cut. And now we see that with enma zoro was able to cut far more than he intended to. Which is clearly at odds with what zoro learned at alabasta since the context clearly suggests that it takes skill to cut or not cut what you want. Zoro already has mastered the haki version which allows him to extend haki beyond his body and so far there isn't an obvious reason for a swordsman to specifically benefit from the even more advanced version luffy just learned (using haki to cause internal damage). I am thinking that mastering enma will allow zoro to further master whatever it is that allows him to cut or not cut what he wants. Which of course will translate to superior cutting power. So its not that enma specifically has the power to cut kaido, rather mastering enma improves your cutting skills as a swordsman.

 

[XXGenesis]

@Brandish
Thanks. Ok, Manga dialogue they are calling it advanced...Dont see why, it makes it more complicated. It should simply be complete, or mastery over haki..it was basically the 1st haki we've seen..but w/e I was wrong...but forms that are "advanced" Flow & internal damage shit..

@Shasha23
Dont group me in with others. I never down played Sanji's CoO..however it he only got to showcase he was better only once and Luffy overcame that lv in the same arc
..

As for Zoro already knowing and using flow haki...Only gives ammo to Zoro actually may not be that much weaker than G4 Luffy before Cracker & Katakuri fight...So yea, screw it I'll admit it, and could only have been known given futuresight or now hindsight...Zoro had better and presumably stronger CoA than Luffy...still going with pre Wano/WCI arc Zoro here.

So majority opinion is because Zoro knew flow he could do what Luffy couldn't..so your Saying Sentomaru knows flow so he should he able to hurt Kaido right...The Boa sister know flow so they should he able to hurt Kaido right....

Luffy with no haki hurt these Boa sister who knew Flow...with just his physical strength right....

So Zoro who knows flow also, before Luffy did..Should be able to hurt Kaido right....

Do you see the point now...its still No. Screw the whole misunderstandings about who's better etc etc...He knows an application if a technique that quite a few know how to utilize also..It still not strong enough to hurt the Yonkou Kaidou.

Because Zoro knew an application of haki that Luffy didnt. Doesn't mean his was stronger.

It's so messed up, I'm agree with someone I should never agree with. If Zoro knew flow this whole goddamn time..Why didn't he cut the birdcage!!!!!!! Roflmao!!

 

[Shasha23]

@XXGenesis

Just because you know flow doesn't take away from the fact you are fodder, why would AL warriors be able to hurt Kaido, this is the last time ill be saying this to you!

Zoro never tried to cut birdcage just like Fujitora or Sabo, you know why PIS!!!!!

 

[XXGenesis]

@XXGenesis

Just because you know flow doesn't take away from the fact you are fodder, why would AL warriors be able to hurt Kaido, this is the last time ill be saying this to you!

My turn to be a condescending ass. Did I say Amazon Lilly fodder..or Boa Sisters minor characters who possessd enough to fight g2 luffy but lost.

Because Zoro knows the advance haki or application of Haki. It still doesn't mean he can hurt Kiado with the level he is or was at beginning of Wano. Pay attention to all the details of the manga. Luffy not knowing the technique still did nothing, however his physical stats are 2 tiers higher than Zoro's.

So no Zoro cant hurt Kaido w/o lving up everything about himself..Physical stats and his haki

 

[woefdram]

I'd say its fairly clear that yes, this is what the series is going for at the time. So the interesting bit will be what or how exactly the sword will end up helping to accomplish this. The sword seems to largely be a basis for a presumably substantial haki powerup for zoro. here is my thery:

Back at alabasta we saw that zoro learned how to cut metal and by extension how to cut what he wanted to cut. And now we see that with enma zoro was able to cut far more than he intended to. Which is clearly at odds with what zoro learned at alabasta since the context clearly suggests that it takes skill to cut or not cut what you want. Zoro already has mastered the haki version which allows him to extend haki beyond his body and so far there isn't an obvious reason for a swordsman to specifically benefit from the even more advanced version luffy just learned (using haki to cause internal damage). I am thinking that mastering enma will allow zoro to further master whatever it is that allows him to cut or not cut what he wants. Which of course will translate to superior cutting power. So its not that enma specifically has the power to cut kaido, rather mastering enma improves your cutting skills as a swordsman.

Thank you for putting all this together so eloquently Going from this back to the original question: Yes Zoro will be able to hurt Kaido with Shusui, just not as he is at this point in the story.

 

[Gomu Gomu no Tako]

Sandia Kitetsu is a named sword not a ranked sword, in terms of hierarchy its a 4th graded blade

Sandai Kitetsu is one of the 80 wazamono and a meito. Look it up. It's also a work of the third generation Kitetsu (Hitetsu) which means first generation (shodai) is first grade, nidai is second and sandai is third since they got lower in ranking with every generation.
Quoting tashigi reading from her book about the sandai kitetsu: "That's amazing. This is another high-grade sword! It should normally be sold for a million belly. It's predecessor "nidai kitetsu" is one of the great grade swords while "shodai kitetsu" is one of the supreme grade swords!"

Btw: Did someone notice the hamon (flame-like) on his sandai kitetsu does look very much like enmas?

 

[ShadowHeart]

It would take away from his greatness as a swordsman and the best swordsmen in the world dont have a DF, pure skill.

Watch Mihawk have a df now you said that. Although it'll make Zoro defeating him that much more awesome.

 

[M3J]

He probably could, given swords are different from blunt objects like fists.

 

[Shasha23]

Sandai Kitetsu is one of the 50 wazamono and a meito. Look it up. It's also a work of the third generation Kitetsu (Hitetsu) which means first generation (shodai) is first grade, nidai is second and sandai is third since they got lower in ranking with every generation.
Quoting tashigi reading from her book about the sandai kitetsu: "That's amazing. This is another high-grade sword! It should normally be sold for a million belly. It's predecessor "nidai kitetsu" is one of the great grade swords while "shodai kitetsu" is one of the supreme grade swords!"

Btw: Did someone notice the hamon (flame-like) on his sandai kitetsu does look very much like enmas?

LOL dude no, Sandai Kitetsu is a 業物 (Wazamono ) all these katana are named blades but are the lowest rank of all meito.

1) First rank: 最上大業物 (Saijō Ō Wazamono) 12 blades
2) Second rank: 大業物 (Ō Wazamono) 21 blades
3) Third rank: 良業物 (Ryō Wazamono) 50 blades
4) Fourth rank: 業物 (Wazamono) unknown number

You are confused because Shodai Kitetsu is a 1st rank and Nidai is a 2nd rank, your assuming that the 3rd blade in the Kitetsu series is a 3rd rank which it isnt, the only third rank blade Zoro has ever had was Yubashiri which was destroyed.

 

[Gomu Gomu no Tako]

Yeah definitely, that's it. My mistake. So hitetsu kind of skipped one grade?...what a bummer. Not sure if this was really intended. On the other hand the nidai would than be a much better (2 grades higher) upgrade! Hope we will see that. And lol in all fairness, 2 wikis had wrong information on that.
Now i'm kind of more and more interested in the other swordsmith Shimotsuki Kozaburo who managed to create the wado and enma. He might have been the better one since hitetsu said his 2nd grade (Ame no Habakiri) is his masterpiece but we don't know that yet.

 

[XXGenesis]

I'd say its fairly clear that yes, this is what the series is going for at the time. So the interesting bit will be what or how exactly the sword will end up helping to accomplish this. The sword seems to largely be a basis for a presumably substantial haki powerup for zoro. here is my thery:

Back at alabasta we saw that zoro learned how to cut metal and by extension how to cut what he wanted to cut. And now we see that with enma zoro was able to cut far more than he intended to. Which is clearly at odds with what zoro learned at alabasta since the context clearly suggests that it takes skill to cut or not cut what you want. Zoro already has mastered the haki version which allows him to extend haki beyond his body and so far there isn't an obvious reason for a swordsman to specifically benefit from the even more advanced version luffy just learned (using haki to cause internal damage). I am thinking that mastering enma will allow zoro to further master whatever it is that allows him to cut or not cut what he wants. Which of course will translate to superior cutting power. So its not that enma specifically has the power to cut kaido, rather mastering enma improves your cutting skills as a swordsman.

Love this post. Except I believe you start to contradict your self a bit at the end...Enma is a sword that can cut Kaido..Its the only sword from Wano presumably, only sword used against him that has hurt him.

But like you said, it goes hand it hand with not being able to cut what you want as you want. I believe if you are able to weild Enma w/o dying. You can cut kaidou with it.

 

[jaymizzo]

Hold up, I've never in this topic said that Zoro IS YC level. My point was that Enma shouldn't be THAT significant of a power up since it is the same grade as Shusui. I just debated you on why I disagree with you saying "He can't fight YC", I don't see any logic in that. As I've wrote in the power level thread - we simply don't know his full strength at this point of time therefore it is unreasonable to say whether he can or can't defeat anyone, but here you are stating he can't even fight a YC.

Maybe you've meant he can't beat YC which is arguably more logical idea, and saying for sure if he actually can beat any YC would be unreasonable. It's either I don't understand what you are trying to say or you are choosing poor words in expressing your point of view.

Its not unreasonable to claim that given the evidence in the manga, Zoro has not shown or been pitted against such opponents. Its unreasonable to say he is at that level simply because people want him to be at that level. Not a single person has come up with anything reasonable other than because Luffy did it...

You misunderstood my entire post. I don't recall saying that Zoro wont fight a YC or can't (if I did, my bad, haven't seen it in my posts though), I know he is going to fight someone strong, we know by the end of this arc the SHs will be a level above what they are at now. Hell, the battle hasn't even started and these guys are lvling up already. I'm not thinking that Zoro, the 1st mate, wont have a fight against a YC or have a hand in the downfall of a Yonko.

P.S. Fighting someone and being on their level are completely different things. You can say Queen can fight BM (which he somehow did), but it was a pretty one sided fight. It wasn't a clash as there was a clear winner, it wasn't a skirmish as it wasn't some show of strength. Both opponents wanted to take the other out with Queen being too weak.

 

[afromarco005]

Voted No at the moment. I don't think Zoro's haki is stronger than Kaido's haki. If it was, then I believe Zoro is capable of defeating Mihawk like right now.

Though, I'd like to see "The Billion-Fold world Trichiliocosm" tested on Kaido. It looks so powerful.

How does being able to hurt Kaido equals to being able to beat Mihawk??

Mihawk is the world strongest swordsman and did duel Shanks back when he had both his arms, the man was one of the few in the One piece verse to achieve the legendary black blade he would make Kaido bleed especially if this fool tries to turn into full dragon mode.

Back on topic I tend to believe that Shusui >Enma right now.
However Enma lets Zoro unleash more of his haki resulting in higher damage output.

Without Enma I don't think that Zoro's haki mastery is refined/strong enough to cut Kaido otherwise it would be bullshit imo.(unless we take his "under the 8 mountains and seven seas there is nothing I cant cut" mantra litteraly)

 

[Pirate Queen]

Question presented to me in class...

"Will Zoro always need be the WSS that needs all 3 of his blades to keep his title? If he fights with only 2 swords again someone gunning for his title, does he loss the title? Can Zoro only be as strong as he is with 3 swords?"

I'm presenting this question up for discussion because i dont think I have ever seen it discussed here.

Is Zoro as the WSS with anything other than 3 swords, nerfed? That's seems almost sad if true. He needs 3 swords where others only need 1.

I'm split, but I'd like to here from the less biased Zoro followers on here

 

[kkck]

IMO the core of that issue would be that martial arts in this manga works different than in real life. That sounds obvious but the context here is a bit important.

In real life different martial arts can and do have inherent differences over each other. Say, a kickboxer would hand a boxer his ass simply because he has more to work with than a boxer. A boxer would be better at punching of course but in turn the boxer wouldn't really have much in the way of defense against kicks. Of course, this assumes that boxing rules aren't in effect.

In turn in manga.... You see that "skill" is the factor that determines victory rather than inherent properties of martial arts. So if you have a boxer and kickboxer fight in a manga... The kickboxer wouldn't actually have an advantage over the boxer in spite of still largely having a more varied move set.

And now back to one piece specifically. We have seen a number of very different martial artist duke it out and we rarely, if ever, see a martial arts having an inherent advantage over the other. remember zoro vs luffy back at whiskey peak? They were mostly even through the fight. In spite of the fact that zoro had 3 swords and luffy had merely fists. Luffy simply wasn't at a disadvantage because he had the skill to handle the fight. In context, its not the martial art that wins the fight, it's the martial artist.

And finally, back to zoro. I would argue that the framing "he needs 3 swords where others only need 1" is wrong. One sword style, two sword style and three sword style... are independent fighting styles that are all equally viable when it comes to real life fights (within the manga of course, no one is trying santoryu in real life and not breaking his jaw). So zoro is capable of one, two and three sword style but among the 3 he is simply more skilled at 3 sword style. Any fighter in the series would be handicapped if you forced him to fight with a style in which he is less skilled at. Zoro going from 3 swords to 2 or 1 should be seen in a similar manner to making him switch from 3 swords to his fists.

 

[Pirate Queen]

IMO the core of that issue would be that martial arts in this manga works different than in real life. That sounds obvious but the context here is a bit important.

In real life different martial arts can and do have inherent differences over each other. Say, a kickboxer would hand a boxer his ass simply because he has more to work with than a boxer. A boxer would be better at punching of course but in turn the boxer wouldn't really have much in the way of defense against kicks. Of course, this assumes that boxing rules aren't in effect.

In turn in manga.... You see that "skill" is the factor that determines victory rather than inherent properties of martial arts. So if you have a boxer and kickboxer fight in a manga... The kickboxer wouldn't actually have an advantage over the boxer in spite of still largely having a more varied move set.

And now back to one piece specifically. We have seen a number of very different martial artist duke it out and we rarely, if ever, see a martial arts having an inherent advantage over the other. remember zoro vs luffy back at whiskey peak? They were mostly even through the fight. In spite of the fact that zoro had 3 swords and luffy had merely fists. Luffy simply wasn't at a disadvantage because he had the skill to handle the fight. In context, its not the martial art that wins the fight, it's the martial artist.

And finally, back to zoro. I would argue that the framing "he needs 3 swords where others only need 1" is wrong. One sword style, two sword style and three sword style... are independent fighting styles that are all equally viable when it comes to real life fights (within the manga of course, no one is trying santoryu in real life and not breaking his jaw). So zoro is capable of one, two and three sword style but among the 3 he is simply more skilled at 3 sword style. Any fighter in the series would be handicapped if you forced him to fight with a style in which he is less skilled at. Zoro going from 3 swords to 2 or 1 should be seen in a similar manner to making him switch from 3 swords to his fists.

So if Zoro was the WSS and defended his title with only 2 swords and lost... does he lose the title?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2019 ---

Let me throw another hypothetical

Zoro fights Mihawk. Both are equally powerful at this point...

Mihawk disarms 2 of Zoro's 3 swords and they are both fighting with 1 blade... Say Mihawk wins... Is Mihawks win tainted because he didnt defeat 3 sword style Zoro?