Discussion Zoro Discussion Thread

[nik87]

it's by no means a stretch that pre enma training zoro would be as unable as the entire group that tried to poison big mom was at trying to harm her. Heck, big mom is someone that went for years or decades in the new world without taking so much as a scratch.

This is my opinion - if Zoro is unable to scratch Big Mom he is unable to do it before and after swinging Enma at bamboo trees getting used to it and preventing the Haki sapping. I see no reason why he would be unable to do it before and able to do it after Enma. Hitetsu told us that Zoro is no ordinary swordsman seeing that he resisted Enma's gimmick at first contact and later during the chapter said that he is sure that Enma in his hands can become black blade, a feat only achieved by Mihawk himself and Ryuma in the distant past.

All the powerhouses in the last 50 years(possibly centuries until Ryuma) were not able to achieve such and I am sure they were able to harm Big Mom. If Zoro pulls a Kokuto in Wano that means that in that certain aspect he has surpassed all those powerhouses and that WCI Zoro wasnt far behind and thus a valid threat to Big Mom. Considering how easily Kaido was cut, who is the most durable being in the verse, cutting Big Mom shouldnt be more impressive. We know what Fujitora described Zoro's simple one-sword nameless slash that went through his gravity and pushed him back - brutal...

 

[kkck]

This is my opinion - if Zoro is unable to scratch Big Mom he is unable to do it before and after swinging Enma at bamboo trees getting used to it and preventing the Haki sapping. I see no reason why he would be unable to do it before and able to do it after Enma. Hitetsu told us that Zoro is no ordinary swordsman seeing that he resisted Enma's gimmick at first contact and later during the chapter said that he is sure that Enma in his hands can become black blade, a feat only achieved by Mihawk himself and Ryuma in the distant past.

All the powerhouses in the last 50 years(possibly centuries until Ryuma) were not able to achieve such and I am sure they were able to harm Big Mom. If Zoro pulls a Kokuto in Wano that means that in that certain aspect he has surpassed all those powerhouses and that WCI Zoro wasnt far behind and thus a valid threat to Big Mom. Considering how easily Kaido was cut, who is the most durable being in the verse, cutting Big Mom shouldnt be more impressive. We know what Fujitora described Zoro's simple one-sword nameless slash that went through his gravity and pushed him back - brutal...

But... why? We know that cutting is also a feat of strength. As in, your capacity to cut or not cut something is entirely dependent on your skill. We have seen that when it comes to haki matches what is important is how your haki compares to someone elses (though there are other factors at play). Within the context of OP it makes perfect sense that zoro is simply too weak to dent big mom. And will eventually be strong enough to slash her.

Also, we don't know if mihawk was the one who made his blade black. It's possible but it hasn't been stated. And zoro has not yet achieved the feat either. Oden was nigh yonko level and didn't achieve this either. It's entirely possible zoro is still not strong enough to make his blade permanently black yet.

 

[nik87]

But... why? We know that cutting is also a feat of strength. As in, your capacity to cut or not cut something is entirely dependent on your skill. We have seen that when it comes to haki matches what is important is how your haki compares to someone elses (though there are other factors at play). Within the context of OP it makes perfect sense that zoro is simply too weak to dent big mom. And will eventually be strong enough to slash her.

Also, we don't know if mihawk was the one who made his blade black. It's possible but it hasn't been stated. And zoro has not yet achieved the feat either. Oden was nigh yonko level and didn't achieve this either. It's entirely possible zoro is still not strong enough to make his blade permanently black yet.

You are again looking at it through Luffy lenses. Why? Luffy being unable to harm something doesnt equal to Zoro being unable to harm the same thing.
Manga has already shown us direct comparison and where Luffy failed, a swordsman succeeded easily and I bet Amande is nothing compared to Zoro.

Zoro already has countless parallels with Oden and being the only one aside him who tamed Enma and in whose hands it can become a Kokuto. Whether it will happen this arc or later, we will see. I certainly doubt that Zoro's skill, strength and Haki arent good enough after 2 years of fighting Mihawk. I am sure nobody made Yoru a black blade for Mihawk.

 

[kkck]

You are again looking at it through Luffy lenses. Why? Luffy being unable to harm something doesnt equal to Zoro being unable to harm the same thing.
Manga has already shown us direct comparison and where Luffy failed, a swordsman succeeded easily and I bet Amande is nothing compared to Zoro.

Zoro already has countless parallels with Oden and being the only one aside him who tamed Enma and in whose hands it can become a Kokuto. Whether it will happen this arc or later, we will see. I certainly doubt that Zoro's skill, strength and Haki arent good enough after 2 years of fighting Mihawk. I am sure nobody made Yoru a black blade for Mihawk.

It's not luffy lenses, it's largely haki lenses and whatever else makes big mom temporarily vulnerable. When its a haki clash even if its swords vs your bare body the outcome is mostly (though i wouldn't go as far as saying solely) determined by haki. The series has always been very lax regarding how martial arts fare against one another (as in, armed combat is not necessarily superior to armed combat) but even within that haki serves to further equalize things as a sufficiently good haki user can potentially simply tank sword attacks. Without even yonko level at that (though this is very circumstantial).

Jokes aside, yoru is a meito so its entirely possible that it was like that to begin with. As for zoro, if his strength was good enough then his swords would already be black. Oden is arguably the strongest swordsman we have seen go all out and he was nigh yonko level... And he didn't get to make the sword black. zoro is certainly not nigh yonko level. At this point his feats don't even add up to top 3 yonko commander. Zoro has a long way to go.

 

[nik87]

At this point his feats don't even add up to top 3 yonko commander. Zoro has a long way to go.

His feats are incredible that not even top tiers have shown but you obviously dont see it that way.
I disagree that he has a long way to go and I think once this arc is over you will realize just how powerful Zoro was all this time in post-TS.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro trains constantly and is the only Strawhat to do so. Where he is currently is not where he was at the beginning of the TS. Growth has happened and even more so since acquiring Enma.

When Zoro defeats King it doesnt necessarily mean he was YC 1 This entire time, tho i could. The avenue isnt out of the realm of possibility. It means, like Luffy, he needed a higher tier opponent to truly grown into a YC level fighter. Luffy argueably didnt grow stronger after the timeskip until after he defeated Katakuri. Up until that point his skills were exactly what they were coming out of the TS.

Comparing luffy and Zoro is the largest mistake because Luffy's growth rate is so extreme.

Unless Zoro clearly outmatches King from the beginning of the fight, which we all know isnt going to happen. Odds are Zoro is going to get stronger over the course of the fight and use newly developed techniques.

In the end, Zoro's opponent is a mere YC and Luffy's is a Yonko. And the gap between the 2 is an ocean.

 

[Brandish μ]

I think it'll be very interesting to see how strong Zoro and Luffy are now. Because a power level discussion with tested feats from the SH's has not been possible, exception being Luffy.

In my view plot matters the most. If Zoro needs to beat King he will, goes for all the SH's. At this moment I can see Zoro fighting King alone, Sanji fighting Queen alone (perhaps with Drake assisting), and Luffy fighting Kaido (perhaps with Kidd assisting). All difficult fights, where Luffy is clearly the stronger, then Zoro, then close by Sanji. Because that's how Oda likes it.

THAT SAID, Oda has to show us he still likes it that way. When was the last time the crew took on enemies tiered in a way where we knew the pecking order? Bruh this is why we have these wild theories out there like Zoro > Luffy, Sanji > Zoro, "Zoro will kill Kaido". Oda has to set us all straight. I'm legit starving for fights in OP. I don't wanna see another fight for Zoro where he's "naive" or whatever other plot is stopping it... just let him loose.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I think its pretty well established that the yonkou is luffy's only.
Captain fights captain, crew members fight crew members. Has always been like this for a long time

 

[nik87]

In the end, Zoro's opponent is a mere YC and Luffy's is a Yonko. And the gap between the 2 is an ocean

I hope you keep this in mind when Zoro joins the fight against a Yonko after beating YC1 or when Luffy fights Akainu and Zoro takes on Kizaru/Fujitora. I want to see how you plan to keep up that ocean gap between the two.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I hope you keep this in mind when Zoro joins the fight against a Yonko after beating YC1 or when Luffy fights Akainu and Zoro takes on Kizaru/Fujitora. I want to see how you plan to keep up that ocean gap between the two.

I always said Zoro is going to get to yonko/Admiral level so i dont have to expain anything.

The fact that you know Zoro can only help against fighting an Yonko and then putting Akainu, The strongest of the Admirals (and current fleet admiral), against Luffy while you put Zoro against Kizaru/Fujitora tells me deep down you understand the heirarchy where Luffy is above Zoro won't change

 

[King Moe]

Judging by direction, Luffy will always be above Zoro. That is set in stone. Gap is already huge and get bigger on Luffy beating Kaido and stronger enemies compare to Zoro. This isn't Naruto and Sasuke stuff, Zoro is fine being weaker than Luffy and him taking on stronger enemies especially knowing ones he can't beat himself in a fight.

Oda not heading that direction with this character.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Judging by direction, Luffy will always be above Zoro. That is set in stone. Gap is already huge and get bigger on Luffy beating Kaido and stronger enemies compare to Zoro. This isn't Naruto and Sasuke stuff, Zoro is fine being weaker than Luffy and him taking on stronger enemies especially knowing ones he can't beat himself in a fight.

Oda not heading that direction with this character.

I wouldnt go as far as to say Zoro if "Fine" being weaker than Luffy.

Luffy isn't even on Zoro's radar as a rival or anything. Zoro's focus is entirely on Mihawk. He is loyal to Luffy above even his own ambition tho and that makes him worthy of being the Right Hand of the Pirate King.

 

[nik87]

The fact that you know Zoro can only help against fighting an Yonko and then putting Akainu, The strongest of the Admirals (and current fleet admiral), against Luffy while you put Zoro against Kizaru/Fujitora tells me deep down you understand the heirarchy where Luffy is above Zoro won't change

Of course he will "only help", I would like to see Luffy do more than "just help" after fighting YC1. Akainu isnt above other Admirals, 10 day fight against Aokiji cemented that forever and Kizaru can only be stronger since his fruit is way more hax than Akainu's. Fujitora is called a Monster thanks to who Marine gained in power, alongside Greenbull while losing Aokiji and Sengoku.
The hierarchy of Luffy above Zoro never existed.
Also, Luffy will only help against a Yonko as well, he isnt doing the job by himself so there is that while Zoro will help/kill Kaido plus eliminate his right hand man.

 

[King Moe]

I wouldnt go as far as to say Zoro if "Fine" being weaker than Luffy.

Luffy isn't even on Zoro's radar as a rival or anything. Zoro's focus is entirely on Mihawk. He is loyal to Luffy above even his own ambition tho and that makes him worthy of being the Right Hand of the Pirate King.

Well not like that. Just he knows gap between him and Luffy and stated difference few times himself. Just saying he is fine Luffy being stronger one and overall strongest in the crew. Not that Zoro won't get stronger, but just not on Luffy's lvl.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 6, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 6, 2020 ---

I always said Zoro is going to get to yonko/Admiral level so i dont have to expain anything.

The fact that you know Zoro can only help against fighting an Yonko and then putting Akainu, The strongest of the Admirals (and current fleet admiral), against Luffy while you put Zoro against Kizaru/Fujitora tells me deep down you understand the heirarchy where Luffy is above Zoro won't change

I don't see Zoro facing Kizaru. Only Fujitora. Kizaru is gonna be Sanji's opponent given only speedster can match him as well his power to boot. Though agree on your points in your post.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Well no wonder zoro without shusui had difficulty against kyoshiro, hes fighting against the top 3 scabbards

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 7, 2020 ---

I don't see Zoro facing Kizaru. Only Fujitora. Kizaru is gonna be Sanji's opponent given only speedster can match him as well his power to boot. Though agree on your points in your post.

Whitebeard and marco arent a speedster but can matched him, its not mandatory

 

[Shasha23]

WOW things are becoming rather toxic here lately

Anyway Luffy has always fought the strongest because he is the captain and thats the only reason, Oda always makes it so the villain does not run into Sanji or Zoro because they would win if otherwise, not so much after timeskip as Sanji for some reason didnt match up to Luffy and Zoro's standards but that should be different now since he has the RS and that pretty much balances it out in terms of combat prowess.
Oda has pretty much made it so Zoro never runs into the antagonist in each arc except for Enel who pretty much beat Zoro and Sanji because they had no haki while Luffy had an advantage vs him, but every other time Oda never makes Zoro run into the "BOSS" because Zoro would win. Look after time skip, Hody pretty much got OHKO, CC never ran into Zoro and Fujitora had to intervene so Zoro wouldnt defeat Doffy.

IMO since time skip the power balance of the crew had changed since Zoro had mastered his abilities while Luffy still hadnt and needed more combat to fully grasp his new skills, Sanji had hit a wall and needed RS to bridge the gap and become equivalent to Luffy and Zoro again, i can understand those who believe Zoro was stronger than Luffy after timeskip since the story might be implying it in a sense that it would be pretty much unbelievable for Zoro to beat commander 1 if he wasn't commander level to begin with.
Its more believable to say after WCI Luffy had finally grasped his limitations and abilities and at that point was now on par with commander level enemies, something Zoro was from the beginning while Sanji was still not even close to commander at that stage, but after the Katakuri fight and Sanji receiving the RS the 3 of the were again comparable.

• I mean it has always been that Sanji while not as physically as strong as Luffy and Zoro he is able to keep up because of his intellect and his fighting style that exploits enemy weaknesses allowing him to beat stronger people than him because of it;
• While Zoro on the other hand is as physical as Luffy but his sword style allows him to be lithal and can beat opponents faster that way and because of his personality he is always serious from the get-go thats why he would never lose to people weaker than him or get overcome by emotions like Luffy
• Luffy on the other hand always starts of slowly and comes across as playful because unlike Zoro he never goes for the win from the get go he plays around and then ends his opponents after he overpowers them with his will

In regards to Luffy and Zoro for me Zoro has always been the stronger of the 2 in a fight but because of Luffy tenacity and his ability to get stronger as he fights it wouldnt matter if Zoro was the stronger fighter since Luffy wouldnt lose because of his abnormal will, the 2 of them have acknowledged that they dont know who was stronger and they both believe the other would never lose a fight, but because Luffy is always been pushed in fights he tends to pull away only for Zoro to catch up before the next arc and thats how its always been and i dont see it changing. This whole argument that Luffy fights the strongest and Zoro doesnt meaning Luffy is stronger is a stupid argument, yes Luffy fights the strongest and always ends in an extreme diff fight, while Zoro fights the 2nd strongest but because Oda doesnt want Zoro to OHKO he always gives the enemy an advantage and handicaps Zoro.
Anyone who has been paying attention this past 970+ chapters would know that Luffy and Zoro are equal(since they said so) and that Sanji's technical style and his intelligence makes him equally as dangerous, this has started to change as it looks like Oda is now making it obvious that Luffy≥ Zoro>Sanji with all this haki upgrades. Haki was a cool concept but recently im starting to hate it since it cheapens DF abilities and the different combat styles in the world, right now its becoming the one with stronger haki always win and i hate that

 

[Pirate Queen]

WOW things are becoming rather toxic here lately

Anyway Luffy has always fought the strongest because he is the captain and thats the only reason, Oda always makes it so the villain does not run into Sanji or Zoro because they would win if otherwise, not so much after timeskip as Sanji for some reason didnt match up to Luffy and Zoro's standards but that should be different now since he has the RS and that pretty much balances it out in terms of combat prowess.
Oda has pretty much made it so Zoro never runs into the antagonist in each arc except for Enel who pretty much beat Zoro and Sanji because they had no haki while Luffy had an advantage vs him, but every other time Oda never makes Zoro run into the "BOSS" because Zoro would win. Look after time skip, Hody pretty much got OHKO, CC never ran into Zoro and Fujitora had to intervene so Zoro wouldnt defeat Doffy.

IMO since time skip the power balance of the crew had changed since Zoro had mastered his abilities while Luffy still hadnt and needed more combat to fully grasp his new skills, Sanji had hit a wall and needed RS to bridge the gap and become equivalent to Luffy and Zoro again, i can understand those who believe Zoro was stronger than Luffy after timeskip since the story might be implying it in a sense that it would be pretty much unbelievable for Zoro to beat commander 1 if he wasn't commander level to begin with.
Its more believable to say after WCI Luffy had finally grasped his limitations and abilities and at that point was now on par with commander level enemies, something Zoro was from the beginning while Sanji was still not even close to commander at that stage, but after the Katakuri fight and Sanji receiving the RS the 3 of the were again comparable.

• I mean it has always been that Sanji while not as physically as strong as Luffy and Zoro he is able to keep up because of his intellect and his fighting style that exploits enemy weaknesses allowing him to beat stronger people than him because of it;
• While Zoro on the other hand is as physical as Luffy but his sword style allows him to be lithal and can beat opponents faster that way and because of his personality he is always serious from the get-go thats why he would never lose to people weaker than him or get overcome by emotions like Luffy
• Luffy on the other hand always starts of slowly and comes across as playful because unlike Zoro he never goes for the win from the get go he plays around and then ends his opponents after he overpowers them with his will

In regards to Luffy and Zoro for me Zoro has always been the stronger of the 2 in a fight but because of Luffy tenacity and his ability to get stronger as he fights it wouldnt matter if Zoro was the stronger fighter since Luffy wouldnt lose because of his abnormal will, the 2 of them have acknowledged that they dont know who was stronger and they both believe the other would never lose a fight, but because Luffy is always been pushed in fights he tends to pull away only for Zoro to catch up before the next arc and thats how its always been and i dont see it changing. This whole argument that Luffy fights the strongest and Zoro doesnt meaning Luffy is stronger is a stupid argument, yes Luffy fights the strongest and always ends in an extreme diff fight, while Zoro fights the 2nd strongest but because Oda doesnt want Zoro to OHKO he always gives the enemy an advantage and handicaps Zoro.
Anyone who has been paying attention this past 970+ chapters would know that Luffy and Zoro are equal(since they said so) and that Sanji's technical style and his intelligence makes him equally as dangerous, this has started to change as it looks like Oda is now making it obvious that Luffy≥ Zoro>Sanji with all this haki upgrades. Haki was a cool concept but recently im starting to hate it since it cheapens DF abilities and the different combat styles in the world, right now its becoming the one with stronger haki always win and i hate that

I disagree with your main points but you structured your comment very well and it was a good read.

Your right. It did get pretty toxic which is why i had to pause. I fell for some pretty obvious bait and its just not worth it.

In the end, this is a shounen and Luffy the MC.

Have a like lol

 

[M3J]

WOW things are becoming rather toxic here lately

THE IRONY



Anyway, the debate between Zoro and Luffy is gonna be debatable unless either clearly shows that he's stronger. Another issue is that they have different but very effective fighting styles as well, as well as being extremely strong (one could push buildings away while the other could lift buildings).

 

[Pirate Queen]

THE IRONY



Anyway, the debate between Zoro and Luffy is gonna be debatable unless either clearly shows that he's stronger. Another issue is that they have different but very effective fighting styles as well, as well as being extremely strong (one could push buildings away while the other could lift buildings).

Yeah. This is the age old discussions that are in every single shounen manga.

Zoro's now were the Itachi fan of Naruto or the Renji fans of Bleach... by the end of the Manga's the arguements slowly die down becuase overwhelming evidence is the the MC's just advance way too much for anyone to catch up.

My guess, Blackbeard and Luffy are going to remain at the top by the time One Piece ends. As its always the MC and their biggest rival.

Goku/Vegeta
Naruto/Sauske
Ichigo/Uryu
Etc... list goes on and everyone else is just 2nd tier.

 

[M3J]

I can see Akainu being up there too, if not at the top. In any case, as you hinted, Zoro doesn't care to be stronger than Luffy, his goal is to be the strongest swordsman. They're not rivals, so Zoro won't be trying to get stronger than Luffy.